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I saw this today -- an actress made a #metoo instagram post about being assaulted by George H.W. Bush during a photo opportunity to promote her TV series. The article seems very sympathetic and pro-GHWB and seems to suggest that all she got was a pat on the behind from a "93 year old" (with possible dementia?) -- but the details of whatever the alleged assault was were not disclosed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-George-H-W-Bush-sexually-assaulted-her.html

I don't know if the Daily Mail UK is the U.S. equivalent of the National Enquirer, but I have come across a number of articles or books about GHWB being a pedophile/child abuser. I know he was tied to the mainstream publicized VIP escorts-in-the-White-House scandal in the Washington Times that Jim posted at #556, but beyond that, there are a few women who have made some really horrific and seemingly outlandish claims of being MK-Ultra presidential model sex slaves (e.g. Cathy O'Brien, Brice Taylor) who, IIRC, named GHWB as a participant in their abuse.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show...s_and_Henry_Kissinger_s_Mind_Controlled_Slave

I honestly don't know what to make of the claims made by Cathy O'Brien or Brice Taylor. I've heard O'Brien speak with Regina Meredith of Conscious Media Network and O'Brien came across as articulate and pretty credible during that interview. But the claims are really out there. Of course, they do become easier to consider/entertain once you've gone down the MK Ultra rabbit hole and understand that this was (is) a real program with real victims (and that women were just as likely to be experimented upon/used as men/soldiers).

I don't know if this actress's story will get wider release or more detailed, but I posted this because there are those out there who for some reason cannot wrap their minds around the possibility that sexual abuse/deviance can involve those with the "big names" too. Only time will tell if the actress's #metoo post about GHWB will embolden other possible victims to come forward.
 
I saw this today -- an actress made a #metoo instagram post about being assaulted by George H.W. Bush during a photo opportunity to promote her TV series. The article seems very sympathetic and pro-GHWB and seems to suggest that all she got was a pat on the behind from a "93 year old" (with possible dementia?) -- but the details of whatever the alleged assault was were not disclosed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-George-H-W-Bush-sexually-assaulted-her.html

I don't know if the Daily Mail UK is the U.S. equivalent of the National Enquirer, but I have come across a number of articles or books about GHWB being a pedophile/child abuser.
The Daily Mail is a very widely read newspaper in the UK. It doesn't really take a line on politics, but you can find out a lot of information that the BBC censors, or reports much later. I think this 'assault' has been reported elsewhere too.
I know he was tied to the mainstream publicized VIP escorts-in-the-White-House scandal in the Washington Times that Jim posted at #556, but beyond that, there are a few women who have made some really horrific and seemingly outlandish claims of being MK-Ultra presidential model sex slaves (e.g. Cathy O'Brien, Brice Taylor) who, IIRC, named GHWB as a participant in their abuse.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show...s_and_Henry_Kissinger_s_Mind_Controlled_Slave

I honestly don't know what to make of the claims made by Cathy O'Brien or Brice Taylor. I've heard O'Brien speak with Regina Meredith of Conscious Media Network and O'Brien came across as articulate and pretty credible during that interview. But the claims are really out there. Of course, they do become easier to consider/entertain once you've gone down the MK Ultra rabbit hole and understand that this was (is) a real program with real victims (and that women were just as likely to be experimented upon/used as men/soldiers).

I don't know if this actress's story will get wider release or more detailed, but I posted this because there are those out there who for some reason cannot wrap their minds around the possibility that sexual abuse/deviance can involve those with the "big names" too. Only time will tell if the actress's #metoo post about GHWB will embolden other possible victims to come forward.
My feeling is that the atmosphere is becoming rather febrile - I mean, as you say, he may be senile, and if he is, you have to ask if it is fair to attack him in this way. By the looks of him, any 'assault' would have been very slight, and maybe accidental. Vastly different from what is being reported about Weinstein.

David
 
My feeling is that the atmosphere is becoming rather febrile - I mean, as you say, he may be senile, and if he is, you have to ask if it is fair to attack him in this way. By the looks of him, any 'assault' would have been very slight, and maybe accidental. Vastly different from what is being reported about Weinstein.
Perhaps, but as a woman who has experienced offensive/inappropriate male attention (both as a girl and a grown woman), and who knows many women (and some men) who have shared far worse experiences that were quite difficult for them to finally talk about, I firmly believe that sexual abuse/sexual assaults are far more common than society has previously publicly acknowledged. I see this #metoo sharing as a huge dam bursting -- long overdue, and finally bringing some darkness to light. I hope the end result is not claims of "witch hunts" or "overreaction" or "getting her 15 minutes," where the victims have to go back into hiding again or abuse is normalized.

I also would not give a man a pass due to his age or presumed infirmity. A man in a wheelchair has working arms - and this man in particular is used to power over others. The actress does not clarify what he actually did -- but it was offensive enough to her for her to share once supported/emboldened by others. And, this isn't any old man. Like I said, the rumors about GHWB's abuses have been circulating for decades. I tend to suspect that where there's lots of smoke, there's probably a fire. I guess we'll see.
 
If more people watched infowars they would know to keep away from the satan worshiping, sex abusing elite.

In the news: "... well meaning people that are dumb enough to get in the orbit of the Bushes and then wonder why their butts get grabbed. ... I mean
what do you think some satanic 93 year old demon goblin's going to do?"

- Alex Jones 10/25/17

And it's not just the Bushes






 
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Perhaps, but as a woman who has experienced offensive/inappropriate male attention (both as a girl and a grown woman), and who knows many women (and some men) who have shared far worse experiences that were quite difficult for them to finally talk about, I firmly believe that sexual abuse/sexual assaults are far more common than society has previously publicly acknowledged. I see this #metoo sharing as a huge dam bursting -- long overdue, and finally bringing some darkness to light. I hope the end result is not claims of "witch hunts" or "overreaction" or "getting her 15 minutes," where the victims have to go back into hiding again or abuse is normalized.

I also would not give a man a pass due to his age or presumed infirmity. A man in a wheelchair has working arms - and this man in particular is used to power over others. The actress does not clarify what he actually did -- but it was offensive enough to her for her to share once supported/emboldened by others. And, this isn't any old man. Like I said, the rumors about GHWB's abuses have been circulating for decades. I tend to suspect that where there's lots of smoke, there's probably a fire. I guess we'll see.
Well I think this is a very difficult area, and I can see both sides. Clearly nobody wants to be sexually touched (or worse) except in a consensual relationship. However, I have observed that some people are far more touchy-feely than others - I basically never touch anyone except my partner, or as in shaking hands. However, I don't suppose those who are more touchy-feely are all sexual predators, but I expect that sometimes they do inadvertently break into someone else's personal space and upset someone. I guess most politicians are of the touchy-feely type.

I do pity people who come into contact with children as part of their work. A skier once told me that her instructor (also a woman) was reprimanded because she helped a very young pupil go to the toilet because she was having trouble opening her suit! Was she meant to tell her to wet herself, or what?

I don't know that there will ever be a perfect answer to this problem.

David
 
I don't suppose those who are more touchy-feely are all sexual predators, but I expect that sometimes they do inadvertently break into someone else's personal space and upset someone.
You don't think women can tell the difference between a guy who likes, for example, to touch people on the forearm as he makes his point, sometimes without the appreciation of the touched, and a guy who likes, for example, to grope random women on the butt? You don't think women would take these sort of differences into account when deciding whether what they'd experienced was sexual harassment?
 
You don't think women can tell the difference between a guy who likes, for example, to touch people on the forearm as he makes his point, sometimes without the appreciation of the touched, and a guy who likes, for example, to grope random women on the butt? You don't think women would take these sort of differences into account when deciding whether what they'd experienced was sexual harassment?
On the contrary, I am sure they can, but I suspect there is still a grey area in the middle. For example, the pictures posted by Jim (above) could be interpreted either way.

David
 
If more people watched infowars they would know to keep away from the satan worshiping, sex abusing elite.

In the news: "... well meaning people that are dumb enough to get in the orbit of the Bushes and then wonder why their butts get grabbed. ... I mean
what do you think some satanic 93 year old demon goblin's going to do?"

- Alex Jones 10/25/17

And it's not just the Bushes






Looking at those pics, one would almost think they were from SNL skits.
 
Well I think this is a very difficult area, and I can see both sides. Clearly nobody wants to be sexually touched (or worse) except in a consensual relationship. However, I have observed that some people are far more touchy-feely than others - I basically never touch anyone except my partner, or as in shaking hands. However, I don't suppose those who are more touchy-feely are all sexual predators, but I expect that sometimes they do inadvertently break into someone else's personal space and upset someone. I guess most politicians are of the touchy-feely type.

I do pity people who come into contact with children as part of their work. A skier once told me that her instructor (also a woman) was reprimanded because she helped a very young pupil go to the toilet because she was having trouble opening her suit! Was she meant to tell her to wet herself, or what?

I don't know that there will ever be a perfect answer to this problem.

David
I think there is far less of a grey area than you can imagine. There is no problem distinguishing between touchy-feel-y and over-the-line sexual assault. The Joe Biden pictures become even creepier when you watch an actual video of what he's doing -- it's definitely not comfortable for the girls (or the parents in some of them). I tend to think he knows what he's doing.

And I know this is just anecdotal/my personal experience, but for whatever it's worth: I also worked on capitol hill one summer during college. I was 18 years old and had the chance to meet some of the movers and shakers. Let's just say that the only word that came to mind after meeting some of the senators/congressmen in their late 50's-60's (70's?) was "lecherous."
 
I think there is far less of a grey area than you can imagine. There is no problem distinguishing between touchy-feel-y and over-the-line sexual assault. The Joe Biden pictures become even creepier when you watch an actual video of what he's doing -- it's definitely not comfortable for the girls (or the parents in some of them). I tend to think he knows what he's doing.

And I know this is just anecdotal/my personal experience, but for whatever it's worth: I also worked on capitol hill one summer during college. I was 18 years old and had the chance to meet some of the movers and shakers. Let's just say that the only word that came to mind after meeting some of the senators/congressmen in their late 50's-60's (70's?) was "lecherous."
Please don't forget that I am not from the US - people like Joe Biden are just names to me. I believe you - were there any decent politicians?

I guess I'd be interested in your reaction though to the ski instructor reprimanded for taking a small kid to the toilet.

This would help to safeguard against the sort of accidental actions that I still think happen. I worked in one place (a university department) where bawdy joked were normal, and perhaps the worst offender was a woman. Men might well have been sacked or given a final warning in other places I have worked, for some of her jokes!

One practical idea that might help in workplace situations, would be that a woman who wanted to stop unwanted attention should be able to file a notice that she did not want any attention from X. X would be told that if he persisted he would be sacked. I guess that would have been useful for you on Capitol Hill!

I certainly do not want to belittle any genuine sexual abuse, and obviously it is a scandal that Polanski has been allowed to escape justice for so long.

David
 
I guess I'd be interested in your reaction though to the ski instructor reprimanded for taking a small kid to the toilet.
David,

The problem is not the person who reprimanded the ski instructor, the problem is the people who make fake accusations and government officials who are overzealous in "protecting" children. In the US it is a real problem, people are afraid to help or go near kids unless they are their own children. Even parents run into problems. The child welfare agencies often lack common sense because they are afraid of making a mistake and leaving a child with an abusing parent - so you can lose your kids because a neighbor thinks you don't supervise them enough.

After the falsely accused, the biggest victims of fake accusations are the real victims of abuse who have a harder time convincing people because of the prevalence of fake accusations.
 
Please don't forget that I am not from the US - people like Joe Biden are just names to me. I believe you - were there any decent politicians?

I guess I'd be interested in your reaction though to the ski instructor reprimanded for taking a small kid to the toilet.

This would help to safeguard against the sort of accidental actions that I still think happen. I worked in one place (a university department) where bawdy joked were normal, and perhaps the worst offender was a woman. Men might well have been sacked or given a final warning in other places I have worked, for some of her jokes!

One practical idea that might help in workplace situations, would be that a woman who wanted to stop unwanted attention should be able to file a notice that she did not want any attention from X. X would be told that if he persisted he would be sacked. I guess that would have been useful for you on Capitol Hill!

I certainly do not want to belittle any genuine sexual abuse, and obviously it is a scandal that Polanski has been allowed to escape justice for so long.

David

Hi David,
I definitely didn't mean to imply that you were belittling genuine sexual abuse. I am sure you are a genuinely caring man and are simply perplexed by (or dubious of) the surge of allegations coming out since Weinstein-gate. I do think many men (not all) simply do not grasp how big of a problem it really is. Young children (boys and girls) often don't tell anyone ever -- or maybe they will tell someone years later, and many women I know have hidden their sexual assaults/abuse/harassment from even close family/friends as well (due to shame, self-blame, fearful of losing their jobs, not wanting to feel like a victim, etc.). So I can see how someone might genuinely wonder at the numbers of women (and some men) now coming out and revealing past abuses -- and might think some sort of "fevered witch hunt" is happening. I just think that some darkness is finally coming to light -- and hope it continues.

Sexual assault is a criminal act, of course -- and covered by various criminal statutes. But in terms of a bawdy workplace or a touchy-feel-ly employer/supervisor, in the U.S. we already have Title VII, where you can file a lawsuit or an EEOC claim to report/sue for sexual harassment (which is considered a form of sex discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act). In addition, most large employers do have some kind of sexual harassment sensitivity training that all employees (both genders) have to take. Generally, to allege a proper sexual harassment claim, you have to show either a "quid pro quo" type of harassment (e.g., that the harasser implied/expressed that you would not keep your job, get a desired raise, promotion, transfer, etc.unless you submitted to his/her advances, or you have to show that the offensive behavior created a "hostile work environment," which generally means that the sexual behavior is pervasive in the workplace. So a single bawdy joke wouldn't cut it, but a workplace that was so bawdy that it created a really uncomfortable place to work for a woman (or man), after an employee first brings the behavior to the attention of the employer to allow the employer an opportunity to address it, might rise to that level. I think in your University situation, if someone had complained that the pervasive bawdy jokes made them feel like there was a sexually hostile work environment, the bawdy jokers would have probably been asked to stop by the employer. But I don't know what analogous laws you have in the UK.

My summer job on capitol hill was a long time ago -- and the lecherous congressmen/senators I came across in DC were not my employers/supervisors, so a Title VII claim wouldn't have helped that situation anyway. And I wouldn't call my own experiences assault -- just powerful, entitled (and probably married) men using their power/status to hit on/use someone clearly not interested or age-appropriate for them. I obviously did not meet the entire U.S. Congress, so I can't answer your question about whether there were also decent ones! I probably would have said "of course there are decent ones" at one point in my life -- but unfortunately, now that I am a cynical "conspiracy theorist" when it comes to deep state corruption/corrosion, I now tend to think that if you are a politician at the top levels of government, whatever side of the aisle, you lost your moral compass a long time ago (if you ever had one in the first place).

I don't know enough about the environment/facts with the ski instructor helping the young child undress to pee to offer an opinion. I guess in general I would rather require an abundance of caution when adults work with young children. A life long trauma resulting from sexual abuse is far worse than soiled ski pants.
 
David,

The problem is not the person who reprimanded the ski instructor, the problem is the people who make fake accusations and government officials who are overzealous in "protecting" children. In the US it is a real problem, people are afraid to help or go near kids unless they are their own children. Even parents run into problems. The child welfare agencies often lack common sense because they are afraid of making a mistake and leaving a child with an abusing parent - so you can lose your kids because a neighbor thinks you don't supervise them enough.

After the falsely accused, the biggest victims of fake accusations are the real victims of abuse who have a harder time convincing people because of the prevalence of fake accusations.
Well exactly - striking the right balance in these areas is fantastically difficult. My feeling is that it would be better for everyone if there was no monetary compensation for most crimes - unfortunately these can encourage false accusations, and it detracts from those who are reporting real abuse..

I suppose I wish that those who campaign on such issues would show more awareness of the entire problem.

I don't know enough about the environment/facts with the ski instructor helping the young child undress to pee to offer an opinion. I guess in general I would rather require an abundance of caution when adults work with young children. A life long trauma resulting from sexual abuse is far worse than soiled ski pants
It isn't really that though is it? Suppose the child had wet herself and continued to ski. She might have become chilled through and the ski instructor would also have been blamed for that too. Unless people see both sides of these problems, they simply drive well meaning people out of activities that bring them into contact with other people's children.

David
 
An Open Secret

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"In light of the long awaited revelations of sexual abuse in Hollywood finally being reported ESPONDA PRODUCTIONS presents AN OPEN SECRET for free for a limited time . A film about the sexual abuse of children in the entertainment industry in Hollywood."
 
Well exactly - striking the right balance in these areas is fantastically difficult. My feeling is that it would be better for everyone if there was no monetary compensation for most crimes - unfortunately these can encourage false accusations, and it detracts from those who are reporting real abuse..

I suppose I wish that those who campaign on such issues would show more awareness of the entire problem.


It isn't really that though is it? Suppose the child had wet herself and continued to ski. She might have become chilled through and the ski instructor would also have been blamed for that too. Unless people see both sides of these problems, they simply drive well meaning people out of activities that bring them into contact with other people's children.

David

I do see "both sides of the problem," but I also tend to think that the number of real accusations of abuse far outweigh any false accusations of abuse. Again, don't know about the actual facts surrounding why the ski instructor was reprimanded...seems like there was more going on there. You are simply relating a second-hand story of what you were told by someone who was told by a clearly interested party -- you may not have gotten the full background of who this instructor was, whether there had been incidents involving other instructors in the past, whether the way she "helped" the child was objectionable, whether the parents could have taken their own child, whether she failed to get the appropriate permission, etc.

I posted a link to this book before in this thread ("The Witch Hunt Narrative: Politics, Psychology, and the Sexual Abuse of Children" by Ross Cheit), which I highly recommend. Because when you delve into the history of the "false memory syndrome" phenomenon, you'll see that it began by some very shady characters who, I believe, ran a child porn publishing company themselves. And I believe that the FMS defense was the sad beginning of the whole "kids are making it all up" belief that many who haven't had much experience with the real traumas of childhood sexual abuse now unfortunately have -- and that I would argue is complete rubbish. IMO, children already have very little voice, generally are too terrified (threatened) to come forward, and so when they do, I tend to believe them -- even if (self-interested? clueless?) adults are trying to discredit them.

Sure, there are bound to be some false claims -- but I would argue that these mostly arise where sick/awful parents prod/threaten/manipulate their kids to lie about the other parent for custody/divorce purposes -- and that children rarely make false claims about sexual abuse by other family members or outside persons. And the data shows that pedophiles DO try to position themselves where they have easy access to children -- so no wonder many parents are hyper-vigilant these days.

The foster care/CPS system is a mess -- agreed -- and there are some bad players there for sure -- but I could go on about the problems on all sides of that issue. In my experience, Child Protective Services is far more liable to leave a child with abusive parents than to remove them -- but of course I have read the horror stories of "good" parents having their kids taken away for no reason too and I am sure that does happen. Of course, when you remove a child from an abusive family, you may end up putting them with abusive foster parents or in an abusive group home. It's hard to get functioning families to take in dysfunctional/abused children and risk harming the healthy dynamics of their own families, so you may get the foster parent dregs who are in it for the "money" -- or something far more sinister.

In any event, I'm sticking with my abundance of caution philosophy here.
 
I think it would be great if people could find a way of breaking out of the mould a bit regarding the problem of sexual abuse. I mean as it stands it is easy to envisage tightening the screw until a few non-abusers have been picked on unfairly, the cases publicised, and then the pendulum will swing back the other way and what will have been gained?

I think it is a terrifically difficult problem to solve properly, because like it or not, a few people will make false abuse charges, and if someone can be convicted on the basis of uncorroborated evidence - especially if victims are paid for their ordeal - some terrible injustices will be done.

The other thing to realise is that some people do jobs where they come into contact with some fairly disturbed kids, and some of these jobs are not well paid. You can't expect people to fill these posts if they feel there is a real risk of false accusations being made against them. One answer (unacceptable in these times of sexual equality!) might be to reserve some jobs for women. Sure there are occasional examples of women being physically or sexually abusive, but the proportion must be much less. Solving 95% of a problem might be worth doing!

It might help if junior members in a hierarchy could deposit a complaint about a more senior person, and that would initially result in a private warning to the person concerned - stop it or else. This would give the punishment an initial softer edge - the perpetrator would get the opportunity to recognise that his action was considered abusive, and stop it completely, but he would be dealt with if he continued. Maybe even the police could operate such a scheme.

As regards kids, perhaps a partial, imperfect solution would be to give kids a legal right to request to be taken away from their parents. No proof of abuse would be required, and usually no court case would follow, but parents would probably fear the social consequence as others learned that their Mary had chosen to leave her parents!

David
 
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