Pizzagate. Plus, Ex-FBI Undercover Agent Bob Hamer |357|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    I do not take this as a serious article, but rather a crafted narrative with an agenda. Let me offer a couple reasons why:

    The author is using a 'fictional narrative' style -- in other words, no one named in the article is verifiable, even the therapists. "They claim this is to protect the child, but, this is commonly used among writers to 'weave' a story, that is take bits and pieces from different stories, add a bit of imagination, in order to create something 'cutting edge' and sellable, that is now, clickable, click-bait. It is titillating, in other words, getting us in the mind of this young man in order to toy with emotion, keeping us in the right brain, therefor, unscientific and subjective.

    Here is the quote where I stopped seriously reading altogether and skimmed the rest of the article until the end.

    "The research we do have, and this is derived from very small sample sizes, suggests that those attracted to kids tend to be shorter, left-handed, and have a lower IQ than the broader population. Another study found that being knocked unconscious before the age of 13 might be a factor. This may sound like quackery, but it points toward biological causation. In other words, it’s likely that pedophiles are born this way."

    No names, research has authors, studies have real data to point to, this is all kinds of nonsense here.
    Skim to end, there is not one single footnote. No references, no resources.
    No where to follow-up, just an active comments thread, again pointing to click-bait.
     
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  2. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    well, this story is practically 30 years old at this point and Randys counter was that that specific boy was the one the police was trying to catch.
     
  3. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    You'd think this would be obvious but some people care more about attacking white men than actually addressing the problem of paedophilia and corruption. Where were these people when 1400 young girls in Britain were groomed and raped by pakistani muslim gang members? Where were they when left darling UN obfuscated that its third world peacekeepers often rape the native children of their protectorates?

    Rape gangs in Britain: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
    UN rape gangs: https://apnews.com/e6ebc331460345c5abd4f57d77f535c1
     
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  4. Laird

    Laird Member

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    A pretty plausible claim...

    Yes, this reflects the standard biological-materialistic reductionism common in science when studying the mind and aberrant behaviour. I think it has only a limited role to play, so perhaps we agree on this. That said, it was a tiny part of the article.

    I put into Google the phrase research paedophiles shorter, left-handed, and have a lower IQ, and the second result that came up was the article, The Neurobiology and Psychology of Pedophilia: Recent Advances and Challenges, which is a study with real data and names backing up the statement you quoted above.

    Anyhow, like I said, I'll try to avoid this side-track going forward. Will try to engage with the actual subject after listening to the Lori Handrahan interview.
     
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  5. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Wow, while there is nothing there I can see about 'shorter, left-handed, lower IQ' there is an enormous amount of references and notes. This is very compelling actually, thanks for the link. There is actually so much material here in the notes to explore I'm pretty blown away that so much academic work has gone into it that is not better known to the public. Great material here for moving forward.
     
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  6. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Actually, no, that was the tone of the entire article. Titillating words are used in place of 'flat' words, for effect. No references are used for an explicit reason. The article is click-bait, if there are studies to back up this author's words, one must go digging to find them. I'm glad you did, and that makes me a bit willing to explore further, but not thanks to this douchebag's words.
     
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  7. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Biological causation. Quackery points to biological causation. Seriously, take apart this single paragraph. There is really nothing left, it is complete double-speak nonsense.
     
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  8. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Yes, that phrase itself doesn't occur in the text - you have to hunt through it to track down each of the various claims (e.g. search for "left" until you get to the hit on left-handedness) but they're all there if you do want to hunt them down (including the "being hit on the head" thing). That said, on top of the small sample sizes, the "tendencies" are very small anyway, so...

    Glad it's useful to you!

    Re your other two responses, I'll let you have those last words. :) We see things differently but I don't want to argue over it any more than I have already done.
     
  9. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Well as we say here in the South, 'that's mighty white of ya'
     
  10. AryaS

    AryaS Member

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    Laird,
    My point is that an article like that screams total bullshit psy-op to me. The entire article is set up to create sympathy for child rapists or wanna be child rapists. Wow. There's no helpline for them. Even the therapists are cold to poor Adam the wanna be child rapist once he confesses his urges. No help. These wanna be child rapists are suffering alone. They are actually the victims! (and notice that the would-be perpetrator has to be a sympathetic 16 year old with "hobbies" -- an otherwise "caring person" -- not some unsympathetic 50 year old who's been preying upon and abusing children for decades).

    In other words: it's a total fabrication to me -- and one that is likely generating a good laugh by the pedophiles who are churning out articles like this (e.g., interesting choice of "Adam" for the anti-protagonist, along with some prurient details about Adam's supposedly being "disgusted" upon viewing of a child being brutalized (i.e., bound and gagged, with an adult urinating in the terrified and screaming young child's mouth), but who nevertheless later continues to "masturbate" to child porn....)).

    There is an agenda afoot -- and it neatly coincides with all of the pedophilia being revealed in real life. Quick! Turn it into a disorder. A disability. Create doubt as to what this really is.

    I'm not interested in hearing about someone (fictional or not) who has urges to sexually brutalize young children/infants, but who wants to tell people of his supposed ability to suppress it. Where are the helplines for the wanna-be cannibals or serial killers? Are we demanding they should be set up too? So what is the purpose of this article? Three gold stars for the controlled psychopath? It is clearly written and published to try to get normal people to feel sympathy for depraved criminals -- and apparently it works.

    More articles should be about what pedophilia actually is and what it does to children/infants who can even survive it. It is not sexual desire. It is not a sexual 'preference' -- it is a brutal psychopathy and desire to harm (and sometimes kill) beings too young to be able to defend themselves.

    I hope you will listen to the Dr. Lori Handrahan podcast. It's a pretty sobering reality she discusses.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  11. AryaS

    AryaS Member

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    I finally forced myself to read through the entire disgusting article (I had stopped reading it after the first few paragraphs and probably should have trusted that initial gut instinct). It is so obviously a fictional narrative with a pedophile-friendly agenda. Young 16 year old "otherwise decent" pedophile, with "messy, medium-brown hair," from a typical suburban family with a caring mom ("Mommy" in the article), starts a pedophile support group for other young pedos who can't help watching hardcore child pornography but who don't want to hurt anyone.....including the 22 year old member studying to be a pre-school teacher because: "he only feels an erotic pull to girls aged seven to 12, and that for two-to-six-year-olds it’s more of a protective, almost brotherly instinct. He said this is what makes him such a good preschool teacher." Seriously? I wonder how he knows when the child goes from 6 to 7 so he knows when to transition from protector to predator?

    How about this choice piece of bullshit:

    "The boy in this video was fair-haired and looked to be about one and a half, his small, naked body tied up to restrict movement. A man’s torso entered the frame and the child began to scream. As he watched the scene unfold, Adam was transfixed, and then quickly revolted; he reached over and stopped the video. It wasn’t like anything he’d witnessed in the two years he’d been viewing child pornography. Until now everything he’d seen seemed to suggest that the kids liked it, but this toddler was clearly in pain."

    Up until now...in the two years of watching all the "pre-teen hardcore porn" -- it all suggested that the infant/toddlers/children seemed to like it? Child pornography is sadistic torture of children. The only ones who are getting enjoyment are the perpetrators and those psychopaths watching who help to continue the cycle of violence and complete destruction of human souls. We are talking children who are pre-verbal here.

    Yes, the entire fake article about non-offending child rapists is meant to "normalize" the psychopathic desire to rape children as just another off-shoot of human sexuality. Pay attention to the narrative and word choices. Watching "intergenerational sex" anime instead of real child porn. Getting unnamed experts to say that people are "born this way." Presenting the imaginary group of likable young pedos as typical teenagers struggling to fit in....It's all about mirroring the narrative of gay teenagers struggling to fit in -- except this is nothing like gay teenagers. This is NOT a sexual "preference." This is the desire to HARM another, smaller, helpless human being. This is about taking pleasure in watching infants/babies/young children be raped. That is what child porn is.

    And to think that people are fooled by this disgusting psy-op just makes me sad for all of humanity. A meteor couldn't come fast enough indeed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  12. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    Excellent, you're welcome to join my doomsday cult. You'll need some better shoes first though..
     
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  13. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    You have expressed so much of my anger and frustration so skillfully, thank you for taking the time and effort! It's a great thing to read the sentiments you don't know how to find words for but another speaks to it exactly. The only thing that kept repeating for me as I was reading this is, beyond the blatant manipulation, was it's like me trying to argue I have a preference for slave labor. Of course I prefer when they successfully pretend to love their servitude and so I'd reward them for that with the continued honor of serving me another day.

    Also disturbing is the amount of funding/popularity that seems to be going into this as far as academia. Is it part of a social experiment? What happens when nothing is left as taboo? Is it possible many are doing 'it' just b/c it's wrong and much of the thrill would be lost otherwise? It's so hard to wrap my mind around. How pervasive is it, exactly? They keep talking about how no good statistics are being kept, and bravo for anyone trying to change that, but I do wonder, what that will change if good stats could be available, and if it would be enough, by far, to engender a real shift in consciousness about this abuse, especially if the 'titillating programming' continues??

    I agree Arya, how else could we describe it but as demonic? For me I know I need to grow my spiritual fortitude, but that field has been riddled with horrors as well. I like the way Tsarion has put it, 'enlightenment' is actually a deconstructive process, but of course, no one wants to hear/see that. I think you have so much strength and courage to continue to address this and I appreciate that and will keep watching and participating in this thread thanks to your efforts.
     
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  14. LetsEat

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    I think some people are politically motivated, others are emotionally motivated. Specifically I think it has been a small segment of the left as seeing themselves as the liberationists from one of the last vestiges of religious morality, a small segment of the extremely rich who would wish to avoid persecution for their habits by creating gradual acceptance of them and finally a lot of garden variety paedophiles with various motivations such as seeking to escape the guilt society imposes on them for what they feel isn't their fault.

    Child abolition among the left: http://www.spiegel.de/international...ow-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html

    Not just in Germany: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/movies/alfred-kinsey-liberator-or-pervert.html Kinsey took hundreds of accounts from a paedophile in the American government while hiding his name knowing full well that the paedophile would continue abusing children. Man is considered by many to be the founder of the sexual liberation and is still widely supported today. You can be sure none of this shows up in his celebratory movie.

    John Money, the big cheese behind the modern concept of Gender: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2004/06/gender_gap.html Based his theories partially on his human experimentation on David and Brian Reimer. David Reimer had suffered a botched circumcision and was taken to John Money who then decided to turn him into a 'girl' because gender is just 'socially constructed'. He instructed the two brothers to have sex with each other and then both brothers killed themselves as adults after disfunctional lives.

    Why is John Money and Kinseys research still respected?


    edit: The earlier scientific paper posted covers the garden variety pedo so I didn't feel the need to research more on this.
     
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  15. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Here is a good new interview on the trafficking/pedo crimes. I remember seeing a meme back when I was still on Facebook that praised Hillary for saving the children in Haiti. It had thousands of likes and hundreds of 'yippie Hillary' comments. I just shook my head and moved on, no use diving into that den of delusions.

     
  16. AryaS

    AryaS Member

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    Thank you for sharing these links -- very disturbing about Kinsey and Money. And the Spiegel article about the 70's is just horrifying. I personally remember the 70's (when I was a young child) as a very dark energetic time. Adults I knew were behaving irresponsibly and sometimes inappropriately towards children, all under the guise of being "liberated." I often wonder if they feel regret now. But when you are small child and someone much bigger than you is trying to coerce you to do something you are not ready to do, it's extremely confusing and frightening. As one of the only sane people quoted in the Spiegel article above notes: "There is no equitable sexuality between children and adults." I don't care how many sick twisted pedophiles try to rationalize otherwise.

    Which again brings me to my rage against those who watch "child porn" -- or their apologists. What do people think "pre-teen hard core child porn" is? This isn't analogous to the bad acting, ridiculously titled (and presumably) consensual soft core adult porn those of us who aren't hard core porn enthusiasts might conjure in our minds. This is, literally, adults raping, torturing, sexually assaulting young children -- often drugging them into not resisting -- or enjoying the terrified resistance as part of the thrill. Children who in some instances aren't even old enough to speak. Children who will likely be killed once they are no longer useful. Please let that sink in.

    If someone confessed in a magazine article (or to you personally): "I know it's wrong, but I just can't help being turned on by watching snuff films," or "I know it's wrong, but I just can't help getting off on watching people being cannibalized," we would feel nothing but horror/revulsion. So why would anyone feel any sympathy for someone who "gets excited by" children being raped and sexually assaulted by adults?

    This forum is supposedly a gathering place for people to discuss NDE's and other consciousness-centered topics, often concerned with proof of the afterlife. I see many people here taking comfort in the NDE reports of a "loving" and positive afterlife experience. I also see people engaging in discussions about the nature of Good and Evil here -- in an "isn't this interesting to think about" way. And yet, the actual, physical manifestation of pure evil is being revealed almost on a daily basis - and other than a few people here, no one wants to go there. This thread is seen/frequented by very few, with very few members keeping it going by sharing important information. And in fact, some people who have posted on this thread are far more comfortable denying that this evil exists on the level it actually does or in defending the abusers. It's incredible.

    How many more stories need to come out about humanitarian aid workers raping desperate children they are supposed to be helping or forcing them to trade sex for food/needed supplies? How many more stories need to come out about government workers having tens of thousands of child porn images on their work computers? (see above for what that actually means!). How many more stories need to come out about elite trafficking rings and the obvious high level efforts to quash any investigation into them before people understand the epidemic of evil happening? Is this all normal behavior to anyone who isn't a psychopath?

    Maybe these types of sexual assaults on (and exploitation of) the most vulnerable among us (i.e., pre-verbal children, children in 3rd world countries in crisis, runaways from abusive households, etc.) have always existed -- maybe those more powerful always rape, torture, abuse, exploit those who cannot defend themselves. But if so, let's admit it and not pretend we live in a modern society that holds up "democratic" ideals and assumes that our favored politicians are basically decent human beings (or at least not totally corrupt and psychotic like the "other side") and that our aids organizations are actually helping those in need instead of exploiting them horrifically. Let's give up any pretense that our military is defending us from outside evils they didn't create themselves or that our alphabet agencies have our best interests in mind. Let's acknowledge that we are all no better than savages participating in a clearly devolved world controlled by an insane criminal group of elites that has already turned most of us into compliant zombies with our poisoned, dehumanized heads in the sand.

    I do wonder why no one having an NDE ever comes back with an understanding of why the hell we have to live in a freaking cesspool like this, and wish someone would explain where the change channel button is for this simulation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  17. AryaS

    AryaS Member

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    More on this....

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-peacekeepers-Haiti-known-10-years-ago.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ids-rights-campaigner-jailed-rape-boy-13.html

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/polit...laimed-organisation-employs-3300-paedophiles/
     
  18. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    Well both the gnostics and buddhists see this plane as one that needs to be escaped at all costs, the Gnostics seeing it as a prison created by a corrupted seed of the true God. Not a very optimistic approach though and this never really comes up in NDE's afaik. I too would really like an answer for this because learning about how bad things are has really driven the sanity out with much of my compassion for humanity.
     
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  19. Laird

    Laird Member

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    I did listen to it - more than once, and you are right that it is sobering. Lori Handrahan makes a lot of strong points, and I was especially struck by her insight into thinking like a paedophile: establishing secure supply lines. I also thought that the term she has coined, "pedosadist", is apt for a lot of the cases she describes. I have not, though, researched her - shocking - claims beyond the interview, except for this:

    I have been doing a lot of digging into her own case in which her daughter was allegedly left unprotected by the authorities in the hands of an abusive father. Over the past few days, I have read hundreds of pages of court transcripts, rulings, and motions, as well as medical records, expert reports, affidavits, emails, news articles, and advocacy web sites on both sides. I have listened to several hours' worth of recordings of telephone and other conversations. This almost compulsive and full-time research is the main reason why I have taken so long to respond in this thread.

    There is still a lot more that I have not read or listened to, but I think that I have seen enough to venture the opinion that, despite that the claims of sexual abuse occurred in the middle of a contentious divorce and custody dispute, and granting that there are some difficult questions which might be raised from the other side:

    1. Lori Handrahan is credible.
    2. The authorities have not acted in the best interests of her child.
    3. The evidence of abuse that she has presented to the authorities has not been accorded the weight that it is due.
    4. The opposing camp has waged a needlessly vicious campaign of censorship and harassment against her and her supporters.

    Lori Handrahan impresses me as a strong, persistent, dogged, and fearless advocate for justice.

    Of course, having done all of that research, there is a lot more that I could say, but I do not want to derail this thread - if, though, in any continuing research, I change my opinion, then I may revisit it.

    I know that I said that I was not going to respond further re the article that I posted, but given that since then you have attacked it so intensely across several reasonably lengthy posts, I will offer another response after all. Between you and Mishelle, the article has been described as "fictional", a "fabrication", and not "verifiable". I had noticed, though, that there was a verifiable identity in the article: "Elizabeth Letourneau, founding director of the Moore Center for the Prevention of Child Sexual Abuse at Johns Hopkins University". I looked up this Center online, and, sure enough, it exists, and Elizabeth J. Letourneau is its Director. She has given a TEDMED talk in which she both corroborates the non-fictional nature of the article as well as explains her research into preventing child sexual abuse through various clinical/therapeutic interventions. It is worth a watch:



    Notice that she corroborates within the first three minutes that:

    1. She participated in the research for the article, and was interviewed by its author, Luke Malone.
    2. She met in person the various young men struggling with paedophilic urges in the peer-support group led by the young man going by the pseudonym "Adam".

    Having not researched in a serious way this topic (the potential for clinical/therapeutic interventions to prevent child sexual abuse), nor verified any of the claims made in the video, I am not offering an opinion on it - just offering this obviously highly qualified and well-published academic's presentation for consideration. I want to make it clear that in no way do I condone or endorse acts of paedophilia, whether they be so-called "consensual" or serially sadistic and abusive or anything in-between - I totally agree with you guys that they are an evil that needs to be stamped out, and I think that clearly neither Luke nor Elizabeth condone or endorse them either. I also agree that defining paedophilia as a "disability" which qualifies the paedophile for social welfare payments is outrageous. If the preventative approach works, though, especially for young potential offenders, and even if only to a degree, then I see no reason to reject it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  20. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Laird I think it's great you've stayed on the research and took such time to clearly elaborate your findings. My issue with the article remains, though I'm glad you found a credible name there and I listened to the first half. I did not mean 'fictional' exactly, I must have misspoke, b/c I meant to say it's written in a 'narrative non-fiction' style, a very popular and manipulative way of crafting this sort of story. The problem is for me the 'titillating' and excessively provocative word choices deliberately meant to 'excite' instead of more appropriate, less charged words when broaching such a subject. This demonstrates to me the author is more concerned about his clicks and comments than on keeping a rational tone that will inspire a serious reading and more professional commentary. And also, as Arya said I believe, clearly trying to engender sympathy for this guy instead of for real victims.

    'Non-offending' is interesting b/c I wonder why looking at child porn is considered to be part of this 'non-offending' category. Those are real children and to watch that is to participate in the offense. I also found the beginning of this Tedtalk contradictory, b/c on the one hand she is saying child sexual abuse is preventable, quoting stats that say most pedophiles are 14 years old and of those, most of them grow out of it. So, if they grow out of it, where is this 'prevention' working? Also, why doesn't she say there that the stats on adult offenders are considered as so under-reported that it makes talking stats on this topic rather pointless?

    I realize she is making the point that these young offenders should not be treated as adults, and I'm on board with that, but it's a pretty sweeping generalization, not based in any data, to then claim that child sexual abuse is therefor preventable. Wishful thinking I'd say from a professional who may be exceptionally malleable and suffering from pathological altruism and the ubiquitous savior syndrome.
     
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