Pizzagate. Plus, Ex-FBI Undercover Agent Bob Hamer |357|

I really don't want to dig back thru that darkness, but you would be doing us all a service if you could make a post cataloging all the art in question and the links/non-links to the parties involved.

Weird art. My God, I didn't realise - FIRE UP THE GUILLOTINE!!!!!!!!
 
any comments on Bob Hamer and his NAMBLA investigation?

I've got some. This is legitimate and a far more genuine link to the Occult than Pizzagate. Check out Hakim Bey and 'Taz', he was very influential in Nambla and also a formative influence on the rise of Chaos magic (some of the early guys there are confessed pedos as well as being very right-wing).

Here for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilson

My point is not that Occult pedophilia does not exist but rather that this is not it. Every magician with any experience knows who the pedos are and what their set-up is. I can tell you one thing: they are exclusively right-wing or Libertarian and most Occultists know all about them and who they are. Pizzagate is most likely some disinformation from this very demographic.
 
My point is not that Occult pedophilia does not exist but rather that this is not it. Every magician with any experience knows who the pedos are and what their set-up is.

you have much more confidence in the powers of "magicians" than I do.

I can tell you one thing: they are exclusively right-wing or Libertarian and most Occultists know all about them and who they are. Pizzagate is most likely some disinformation from this very demographic.
exclusively???
 
Alex could have talked to Michael Hughes about what Occultism is.

No, thank you. I know him from The Secret Sun and I wince when I see his picture/symbol. (Which is weird because I'm friendly as hell. I like almost everybody?) He may be here as well, whatever. I get a very bad vibe from him. He was sheep-herding people about how silly it was to believe Pizzagate and just left a wake of negative energy all over the place. No matter what you think of the subject or whether it is true or not, his approach was not helpful. Neither was the magic guy that wrote for Disinformation. I forgot his name, I think I defriended him.
 
you have much more confidence in the powers of "magicians" than I do.

'Powers' is a different story. We could get into whether or not magic works or whether those who claim to practice it can really do so - we'd probably be on the same page though so it's maybe not so worthwhile.

My point is more about what is known in the community. I can tell you one thing for sure about atheists, scientists, religionists or any other group: what they say for public consumption is not how they talk when they're relaxed among themselves. I'd go with the latter for the authorative take.


exclusively???

Pretty much. It's easy to research - anyone on this thread can come up with a self-proclaimed left-wing Occultist who supports pedophilia. I can think of many right-wing ones.

Conversely you could make a list of the Occultist opponents of pedophilia. I think you'll find only left-wing ones.
 
No, thank you. I know him from The Secret Sun and I wince when I see his picture/symbol. (Which is weird because I'm friendly as hell. I like almost everybody?) He may be here as well, whatever. I get a very bad vibe from him. He was sheep-herding people about how silly it was to believe Pizzagate and just left a wake of negative energy all over the place. No matter what you think of the subject or whether it is true or not, his approach was not helpful. Neither was the magic guy that wrote for Disinformation. I forgot his name, I think I defriended him.

Interesting. Have you examined this perception? There may (or may not) be something behind it but as thing in itself it needs examining maybe.

You'd probably defriend me too. I also think it's silly (worse than silly) to believe it. It's kind of one of the more transparent attempts at agitprop. It did its job though - put it this way: if you were on Team-Trump and wanted to defang the Democrat campaign you could not find a better way to do it. That alone should make you think. Unless of course one is on board with the end-result.
 
No, thank you. I know him from The Secret Sun and I wince when I see his picture/symbol. (Which is weird because I'm friendly as hell. I like almost everybody?) He may be here as well, whatever. I get a very bad vibe from him. He was sheep-herding people about how silly it was to believe Pizzagate and just left a wake of negative energy all over the place. No matter what you think of the subject or whether it is true or not, his approach was not helpful. Neither was the magic guy that wrote for Disinformation. I forgot his name, I think I defriended him.
funny you should say as that was was my initial thought. I wanted to present a broader perspective on the occult and still deal with the Pizzagate stuff. I interviewed Michael for Skeptiko, but the interview was a disaster and I decided not to publish it (a first).

Some people have a religious fervor re politics that's way beyond what I understand. Fanatics/fundamentalists are all similar, regardless of the cause.
 
Some people have a religious fervor re politics that's way beyond what I understand. Fanatics/fundamentalists are all similar, regardless of the cause.

Maybe so..... but they still need to be under the microscope like anyone else. That fact doesn't mean they can be skipped over.

I still am waiting to see what happens with every other topic on Skeptiko: the actual info from the horse's mouth. If we've changed from that then ok, we can roll with it: let me be the first to be interviewed re the opinions of atheists and what they think. No need to get one on - I can do it justice!
 
I really don't want to dig back thru that darkness, but you would be doing us all a service if you could make a post cataloging all the art in question and the links/non-links to the parties involved.

I don't have time to do an exhaustive catalog, but I'll take a stab. I found this own my own last night after you mentioned googling "disgusting pizzagate art." The first hit that I got was to this page, and the first (top left) set of artwork featured was this. The caption says "OK, here's some pieces from the woman whose art decorates the podestas' favorite pizza place."

I clicked a Google link a little further down, and found an old reddit thread talking about those very images and the alleged association to Podesta or Comet Ping Pong, where someone posted "This is a bit misleading. The artist is Kim Noble. She's a ritual abuse / mind control survivor, who has multiple personalities. She painted these sick pieces of art. There is SOME art that is on display at Comet Ping Pong, that RESEMBLES one of her pieces (it's a picture of a body and many bodies leaving it), which someone made a comparison to some of Kim Noble's work (disassociation is a critical component to the abuse/mind control)."

So, not to take an anonymous reddit poster's word for it, I did some more Googling and could not find anything where any of Kim Noble's art was displayed at Comet Ping Pong, at Podesta's house, or any mention of Kim Noble by Podesta or Alefantis or anyone else in that circle. Kim Noble definitely has issues - she at least claims to be a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and much of her "art" relates to that. It's intentionally disturbing, and not my cup of tea.

So this seems to be a baseless claim. It, in my opinion, was by far the most disturbing of the artwork on that site. The rest of it was pretty ho-hum. I mean, it's not the kind of artwork I have on the wall of my house, but someone who's really into modern art can have some weird stuff, and it doesn't trigger any "pedo" alarms with me.

Now back to you - other than Kim Noble's art, which doesn't seem to be associated with Podesta or Alefantis, what is there?
 
@Alex I really think you need to try to put together a strong case that Pizzagate is true. I tend to think it is, but clearly a lot of people don't, and I don't think we should promote this without pretty clear evidence. If you can't do that, it might be best to delete this thread and the accompanying podcast.

I disagree David.

Just because so much about pedophilia in our cultural institutions is speculative does not mean the topic should be avoided.

Just because political agendas cause people to howl and criticize does not mean the topic should be avoided.

If we wanted uncontroversial podcasting, we could go listen to Oprah's Super Soul Conversations or This American Life.
 
Now back to you - other than Kim Noble's art, which doesn't seem to be associated with Podesta or Alefantis, what is there?

I'll step up if I may.

Exhibit One: Arrington de Dionyso

Again, here we have a classic case of the right-wing element I spoke of above. Judge this one for yourselves.

De Dionyso (surely a trigger name for the wingers) made a pastiche homage of Goya's "Saturn devouring one of his sons" with Trump as Saturn. A political comment as well as a classical reference. Wingers didn't get it. Not only did they think he was making art to endorse cannibalism (!!!!) they engaged in a campaign of trolling, lies and harassment.

I won't bother going into greater depth on this one but anyone can read this objective piece and come to their own conclusions if they possess a rational mindset. Clue: the trolls and Pizzagate advocates in this case did not.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/music/an-outsider-artist-takes-on-the-trolls/

Exhibit One: Maria Marshall

Actually, I really can't be bothered. If all this needs explaining then for me it's in the same ballpark as trying to discuss religion and philosophy with an atheist or the possibility of NDEs with a reductionist materialist. You either get it or you don't - you're either locked into your paradigm or you're not.
 
Just because so much about pedophilia in our cultural institutions is speculative does not mean the topic should be avoided.

You can have discussions about pedophilia, but I (like David) don't think it's wise to casually throw around accusations unless there's something to back it up. And from my digging into the Pizzagate topic, the accusations are completely baseless.
 
Do any of the nay-sayers here care to go through more than a couple of the weirder, more difficult emails and offer an idea of what's being said? Without that, all the debunking means nothing. Weird or dark art is not what makes me suspicious; the coded emails are what make me suspicious. The "art," (cough, cough), simply becomes an adjunct to the emails. Someone saying that they'll have some children in a hot tub for some adults' pleasure makes me suspicious. And I think only a group of fuckin' weirdos would come chorusing to their defense . . . I guess the debunkers are ready to send their kiddos on over to that hot tub?

I would also like to hear a nay-sayer explain why the group that leaked the emails did so. It would seem to me that they knew exactly what they were doing and what was being said and that's exactly why they were leaked. Were they simply unsavvy intelligence operatives? Did they make a mistake?

Also, no one's calling for these guys to be hung in town square (without a proper investigation (which would never happen)), so it gets ridiculous hearing that being implied. We do actually have a right to speculate on what's going on when people are clearly talking in coded speech (that for most folk imply sexual things, some of those sexual things being with children).
 
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Well, I guess what's important here is not what the coded emails mean, but rather the association of the various players to the right or left wing.

Good lord.
 
I too got immersed in the Pizzagate thing - accepted and rejected and accepted - flip flopping around and I finished up as in many web scandals like this - on the fence.
I was disappointed with this interview because after Alex's long intro I expected some real meat (or cheese) on Pizzagate from Bob Hamer.
Not a word - and if Alex asked him about it - well it must have been edited out.
Christian Hamer even seemed reluctant to accept Alex's thesis that pedos may be controlled by 'evil spirits' - an embarassing silence.
Strange I should be listening to this following an interview I heard on LBC, a London talk station, discussing the illegal importation into the UK of child sex dolls.
No doubt expecting the usual tirade from the hang 'em. flog 'em, lock 'em up and throw away the key brigade, presenter James O'Brien was floored when a living, breathing pedophile phoned in to say that he himself found the whole scene as disgusting as everybody else.
But he claimed he had never, ever abused a child but the desire and thoughts of doing so had ruined his life and occupied every living moment.
Later another pedo phoned in who had been caught downloading kiddie porn but also said he had never given in to his lusts.
Overall this radio show seemed to leave many listeners with the belief that this problem wasn't simply a case of men acting in evil ways but a psychological problem needing to be understood and solved.
No way was anybody suggesting sex with minors should be legalised or condoned.
Now no doubt these two guys were a far cry from those depicted in Hamer's group who it seems justified their child torture. But whatever the extremity of sexual deviation - even a desire which shows no empathy - it is dormant in thousands of men and surely must be faced calmly and constructively.
A therapist I know tells me she has counselled many men like this - and all have a story to tell of their backgrounds, some being themselves abused and some not.
Can we blame it on evil spirits?
I don't know but if we do, where do we draw the line in what is evil?
Do all those who murder have a bad spirit attachment?
What about those who cheat and lie - even US presidents?
What about all of us who have done things we are ashamed of? Spirits or bad mistakes for which we alone are responsible?
As Skeptiko is 'spiritual' I was surprised there was no discussion of the true reasons for pedophilia, how we should treat those who abuse and whether forgiveness is possible.
 
I don't know who you are but I have never classed Gordon as right-wing. Perhaps you have some evidence?

I thought I remembered him supporting brexit and ukip but I can't find any evidence of that right now, I shouldn't have presumed to speak for him in the first place.

How do you define right-wing/left wing?
 
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