Pizzagate. Plus, Ex-FBI Undercover Agent Bob Hamer |357|

Jim,

For those of us who don't live in the US, can you give us a bit of a summary of the background to MS13, and what connection this gang has to the Pizzagate allegations?

David
 
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MS 13 is a crime gang. As I understand it most (many?) of the members are illegal aliens. They flourished under previous administrations because the elite used their services, human trafficing, killings, drugs etc. That is part of why the immigration laws were not enforced because porous borders made it easier for drugs, human traffickers and their victims to enter the country.
 
MS 13 is a crime gang. As I understand it most (many?) of the members are illegal aliens. They flourished under previous administrations because the elite used their services, human trafficing, killings etc. That is part of why the immigration laws were not enforced because porous borders made it easier for human traffickers and victims to enter the country.
So this might lead on to the arrest of some politicians for using these services?

David
 
So this might lead on to the arrest of some politicians for using these services?

David

I don't work in law enforcement but I think it is likely. Arrests will at a minimum help to prevent victimization of children and they demonstrate the huge difference in this administration compared to previous ones raising the question I answered above of why previous administrations were so permissive. It is hard to find references for this because journalists in the national media want to protect their friends. But I think it is reasonable to assume that even if gang members don't cooperate after their arrest, there would be material evidence recovered leading to other people who are implicated and or can provide information on higher level people.

But I posted about it mainly in response to those posts above (rather than the podcast) which express concern that the adult victims are taking the public focus away from the child victims. I wanted to point out that law enforcement has not lost sight of the problem.

I think what we are seeing in the news is not coincidence. It is a consequence of undercover activity going on behind the scenes, for example, by the FBI working with the NSA and military intelligence. Some people are expecting mass arrests of the elite like in Saudi Arabia but that would convince half the country they are living under a dictator and create political opposition to prosecutions. So the problem is being dealt with at various levels some of them somewhat subtle - showing the corruption in ways people can understand through adult victims speaking out and the revelation of the congressional hush money scandal which is equivalent to pizza gate. People might not have thought this through but every member of congress, republican or democrat who has a secret settlements is controlled - if they don't do what they are told they will be exposed.
 
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My post above is about the women (and some men) coming forward in general in these last few weeks. I don't think they are relishing in their "victimhood." Most people I know who have been abused/assaulted feel extremely shamed/traumatized by what happened to them, and don't want to feel like they are victims at all, but actually having someone really hear them and understand helps in the healing process. Yes, there's a big difference between rape and non-physical sexual harassment-- and I too wish that the media would focus on the real assaults and the real perpetrators. At the same time, if you have experienced any type of unwanted physical/sexual contact by someone bigger/more physically powerful than you -- it can be a pretty traumatic experience, even if it wasn't rape.

I don't doubt there are many victims and many traumatized folks. What I doubt is the authenticity in coming forward when it's convenient rather than when it is authentic and courageous. My issue is with how the trauma of adult women is upstaging the trauma of the children experiencing and dealing with this right now, not a decade (or many) later. Of course these women need to seek to be heard, and seek retribution, and accountability, and healing, and all this. But the timing is suspect, and contrived, and so I doubt the real pain of these adult women and if they are using this opportunity selfishly for their own healing, revenge, whatever, while stealing the focus away from where it is meant to be, on those right now still suffering abuse presently b/c others previous did not have the courage to face their offenders and therefor save future generations from their abuses.
 
Well, but there isn't a story in the mainstream news about rampant child sexual abuse or child sex trafficking -- i.e., every single mainstream news outlet claimed that Pizzagate was "debunked" and suggested anyone saying otherwise was likely a lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist. So there really wasn't anything to upstage.

I agree that the constant inundation of accusations right now is suspect, and also that allegations of inappropriate sexual comments or weird requests to watch someone's masturbation (e.g., Louis CK), though disgusting in their own right, are likely being lumped in intentionally/strategically with more serious charges of rape and sexual assault -- but where we disagree is on who is to blame for this. And I would not blame the victims. I think the women (and men) are genuine and are coming forward now because there is strength in numbers. It can take decades to process this pain/shame -- and most of them probably wouldn't have come forward at all but for the fact that others coming forward have emboldened them to do so now as well. (I know several actresses admitted that they didn't come forward with their own stories about HW until a "big enough name actress" came forward so that it felt "safe" enough for them to do so themselves without being retaliated against by the "Weinstein machine.").

And what's the alternative? Should these women just have kept quiet and never revealed their abuse, just because it happened long ago? Isn't it largely the numbers that are making people take these current allegations seriously? (since it is no longer he said/she said, but he said/she she she and she said). Despite my suspicions over the current dilution of more serious claims, I still think there's a lot of positives to be considered here. First, the stories coming out are getting a lot of people to think about the prevalence of sexual abuse by the rich and powerful in politics, Hollywood, and corporate America. Assuming that the perpetrators actually suffer some consequences for their behaviors, it could truly lead to some positive changes in the workplace. Second, at least some of the allegations are about pedophilia/child sexual abuse (e.g. Kevin Spacey, Charlie Sheen, Bryan Singer, Roy Moore, etc.), which, I would wager, is getting some mainstream people one step closer to considering the possibility of elite level abuse of children. Third, even the Weinstein scandal was brought to mass public attention in part due to Ronan Farrow, whose sister Dylan accused her father Woody Allen of sexually abusing her when she was 7 years old. This not a coincidence connection is causing others to reconsider the Woody Allen incest/pedophilia scandal of a decade or so ago, which at the time was spun largely in Allen's favor and against his daughter:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/...dy-allen-sooner-over-molestation-allegations/

Finally, with respect to Pizzagate -- I would like to think that at least some people hearing about this crazy abuse stuff now and who previously refused to consider the deep dive into Pizzagate or the related scandals like the Franklin Scandal, Dutroux, Savile, Heath, etc... might suddenly be wondering if they should have trusted the MSM's premature "debunking" pronouncements....

I just can't consider someone selfish for wanting to tell their story of sexual abuse. I guess I just know too many people who have been abused to feel that way. Also, sure it would be great if women (and men) could come forward immediately with their abuse allegations -- and maybe save someone else. That's what would happen in a perfect world where we actually had a functioning justice/law enforcement system. But I think we all know what typically happens when someone less powerful goes up against someone with a lot more money/power/resources/connections.

Have you seen The Keepers yet?
 
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Well, but there isn't a story in the mainstream news about rampant child sexual abuse or child sex trafficking -- i.e., every single mainstream news outlet claimed that Pizzagate was "debunked" and suggested anyone saying otherwise was likely a lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist. So there really wasn't anything to upstage.

I agree that the constant inundation of accusations right now is suspect, and also that allegations of inappropriate sexual comments or weird requests to watch someone's masturbation (e.g., Louis CK), though disgusting in their own right, are likely being lumped in intentionally/strategically with more serious charges of rape and sexual assault -- but where we disagree is on who is to blame for this. And I would not blame the victims. I think the women (and men) are genuine and are coming forward now because there are strength in numbers. It can take decades to process this pain/shame -- and most of them probably wouldn't have come forward at all but for the fact that others coming forward have emboldened them to do so now as well. (I know several actresses admitted that they didn't come forward with their own stories about HW until a "big enough name actress" came forward so that it felt "safe" enough for them to do so themselves without being retaliated against by the "Weinstein machine.").

And what's the alternative? Should these women just have kept quiet and never revealed their abuse, just because it happened long ago? Isn't it largely the numbers that are making people take these current allegations seriously? (since it is no longer he said/she said, but he said/she she she and she said). Despite my suspicions over the current dilution of more serious claims, I still think there's a lot of positives to be considered here. First, the stories coming out are getting a lot of people to think about the prevalence of sexual abuse by the rich and powerful in politics, Hollywood, and corporate America. Assuming that the perpetrators actually suffer some consequences for their behaviors, it could truly lead to some positive changes in the workplace. Second, at least some of the allegations are about pedophilia/child sexual abuse (e.g. Kevin Spacey, Charlie Sheen, Bryan Singer, Roy Moore, etc.), which, I would wager, is getting some mainstream people one step closer to considering the possibility of elite level abuse of children. Third, even the Weinstein scandal was brought to mass public attention in part due to Ronan Farrow, whose sister Dylan accused her father Woody Allen of sexually abusing her when she was 7 years old. This not a coincidence connection is causing others to reconsider the Woody Allen incest/pedophilia scandal of a decade or so ago, which at the time was spun largely in Allen's favor and against his daughter:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/...dy-allen-sooner-over-molestation-allegations/

Finally, with respect to Pizzagate -- I would like to think that at least some people hearing about this crazy abuse stuff now and who previously refused to consider the deep dive into Pizzagate or the related scandals like the Franklin Scandal, Dutroux, Savile, Heath, etc... might suddenly be wondering if they should have trusted the MSM's premature "debunking" pronouncements....

I just can't consider someone selfish for wanting to tell their story of sexual abuse. I guess I just know too many people who have been abused to feel that way. Also, sure it would be great if women (and men) could come forward immediately with their abuse allegations -- and maybe save someone else. That's what would happen in a perfect world where we actually had a functioning justice/law enforcement system. But I think we all know what typically happens when someone less powerful goes up against someone with a lot more money/power/resources/connections.

Have you seen The Keepers yet?
Concerning your first paragraph, why do you think all of this is happening? Normally, I would suspect that HW would be protected (like Polanski, Woody Allen, etc.) I assume his and probably most of the others downfalls were allowed to happen. And on the whole it all quite clearly looks like an authorized PR/media push.

Any guesses on what's behind this if not an attempt to divert from the pedos?

And what about Cosby? I fully assume that his media/public trial was engineered. Any speculation on if something else was behind that and what that might've been? (I would also point out that even with tons of accusations he still got off, which I also assume was intentional and part of the plan).
 
Woody Allen was first 'outed' many years ago, nothing happened with it as far as I know. I also recall Michael Jackson being raked over the coals for many years. Of course Cathy O'Brien's story has been out for ages. I first heard about pedophilia when I was a young teen, in reference to Judy Garland and Shirley Temple. There was the docu-drama that came, called The Whistleblower, about sex trafficking. There's been repeated cases in UK with government officials in the MSM for many years now. Here's a more recent one:

I have not seen the Keepers, but will check it out, thanks for recommend.

The reason I think it is selfish of these grown people is the timing. Take a simple case of a family as an illustration. A girl comes home and says her gym teacher has been touching her. Instead of look into the inquiry and keep the focus on the girl, the mother instead starts discussing her own experience being molested by her gym teacher, too. What message does this send the girl?
 
Concerning your first paragraph, why do you think all of this is happening? Normally, I would suspect that HW would be protected (like Polanski, Woody Allen, etc.) I assume his and probably most of the others downfalls were allowed to happen. And on the whole it all quite clearly looks like an authorized PR/media push.

Any guesses on what's behind this if not an attempt to divert from the pedos?

And what about Cosby? I fully assume that his media/public trial was engineered. Any speculation on if something else was behind that and what that might've been? (I would also point out that even with tons of accusations he still got off, which I also assume was intentional and part of the plan).

I agree it looks like an authorized PR/Media push -- and totally agree that it is likely meant to divert attention from child sex trafficking and Pizzagate -- which is still being discussed in various alternative channels/forums -- and so I assume is still somewhat threatening to those involved. My only disagreement is that I don't think the women/men victims coming forward (or at least the majority of them) are "in on it" -- I think they are genuine victims who have suddenly been given MSM encouragement and abundant coverage -- likely from orders on high. I'm sure not even (some of) the journalists know that they have suddenly gotten the green light to cover these issues that were frowned upon/verboten before. But of course I think some journalists are Mockingbirds.

Also agree with you on the Cosby mistrial. What a sham. Maybe the entire darker purpose here is to show that even with horrendous accusations by numerous victims, the rich/famous are still going to get away with it? Hasn't that always been the case? Look at Epstein. Another sham.

Bringing this back to Pizzagate for a moment, I came across this recent Steemit post by one of the first posters on reddit that documents the one year trajectory of the Pizzagate coverage on 4chan, reddit, voat, etc. I think it is worth posting since it attempts to correct the record on the false narrative of this Pizzagate thing being an "alt right political attack/conspiracy" -- apparently the guy who started the entire thing was originally a Bernie supporter/democrat. (excuse the vulgar avatar name -- I hate when posters use these types of names -- really affects their credibility/shareability in my opinion -- but still worth a read).

https://steemit.com/pizzagate/@fuck...te-and-the-pizzagate-pedogate-movement-part-1
 
Any guesses on what's behind this if not an attempt to divert from the pedos?

Maybe to flood the mass media mind to divert from other big news? Or, as a winter solstice sort of ritual, perhaps?

Or, maybe I'm being too cynical and should put on my optimistic Thanksgiving hat and say it's a miracle! (Seriously, maybe if we all meditate on that it will come true!?)

:)
 
I think it may be wrong to assume that the MSM controls everything. If they do, why would they drop Democrat senator, Al Franken in the s**t by publicising accusations against him of groping young women? I would say 'Grope-gate' has rather spiralled out of their control.

David
 
I think it may be wrong to assume that the MSM controls everything. If they do, why would they drop Democrat senator, Al Franken in the s**t by publicising accusations against him of groping young women? I would say 'Grope-gate' has rather spiralled out of their control.

David
I tend to disagree about the MSM: I think they're very controlling and very controlled.

With Franken, my first guess on why they let him go would be bc he might be a leftist who wasn't steeped well enough in maintaining the status quo. Though I no longer consider myself leftist, there still exist leftists, like Cynthia McKinney, who I very much love bc of their threat to the establishment. Perhaps Franken fell into that category, (though certainly not to the degree of McKinney).
 
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I think it may be wrong to assume that the MSM controls everything. If they do, why would they drop Democrat senator, Al Franken in the s**t by publicising accusations against him of groping young women? I would say 'Grope-gate' has rather spiralled out of their control.

David

They covered it because the photo was going around the internet and they wanted to minimize the damage, for example by calling it "mock groping".

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattv...-radio-host-not-actually-groping-her-n2410643
"MSNBC: Franken Was Mock Groping Radio Host, ‘Not Actually Groping’ Her"

This is a common pattern. Only after an inconvenient story breaks in the alternative media do the mainstream outlets cover it, then they hand it off to the commentators who "put it into perspective".
 
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I tend to disagree about the MSM: I think they're very controlling and very controlled.
.

I don't doubt that for a second, but I think that if, as seems plausible, both Republicans and Democrats have engaged in various unpleasant sexual behaviour, they may be forced to go with the facts - they don't have total control. Maybe it will turn out that more Democrats than Republicans are guilty of this, because it seems to me that people who go about moralising, are often the worst offenders - think of Catholic priests.

David
 
...because it seems to me that people who go about moralising, are often the worst offenders - think of Catholic priests.

Your perception could be the result of media conditioning.

If we looked at the Pedo Problem statistically, public school teachers might, statistically, be worse offenders than Priests.

We don't have data, but I do know Media have a huge bias against anything traditional.
 
Your perception could be the result of media conditioning.

If we looked at the Pedo Problem statistically, public school teachers might, statistically, be worse offenders than Priests.

We don't have data, but I do know Media have a huge bias against anything traditional.
I've been saying something similar. Clearly, it's okay to talk about how bad the Catholic Church is and about the pedo problem within it, but as you said with teachers, I've thought the same thing with other religions: surely Judaism or Islam isn't statistically any better than Catholicism. Of course we condemn Catholicism as strongly as any other group for what they've done, but they seem to be a designated pedo scape goat . . . there seems to be little other, which is suspicious.

I agree with Charlie about anything traditional being open for attack . . . that seems to be the common thread with so many things: if it's traditional, we're told it's ridiculous, out-dated, bad.
 
Interesting (but rather long) piece assessing the current Hollywood sexual scandal/media revelations by Jasun Horsley.

https://auticulture.wordpress.com/2017/11/15/scumbags-and-superstars/

Interesting conclusion:

"As we begin to see what the stars really are—diamond-hard sociopaths whose success depends on the artful simulation of goodness—our first reaction is to want to condemn them. (This is what happened for me with the spiritual teacher John de Ruiter, as documented elsewhere.) Yet not only are we the products of the same culture, it is a culture that these “gods” have made with our support. Consequently, we can’t help but aspire for wealth, power, fame, influence, and social status, even against our conscious will, because, what else is on offer? When the Hollywood bell rings, we salivate. Yet since we know there is no nourishment in an empty sound, we intuit that there must be some hidden benefit on offer, known only to those who attain the godly plateau. So we are drawn into the maze.

This is the dark side of celebrity culture, and if it is being revealed to us now, presumably that is because, one way or another, we are ready to start seeing it. So what are we to do, as we begin to see that our ideas about morality are insufficient to comprehend, much less enjoy, the lifestyles of the rich and powerful? How can we continue to imitate our gods when we are being culturally signaled to condemn them? What comes out of, or enters into, such a profound schism in our most deeply embedded, value-based identities?

At some point, we have to choose. Either we admit that our gods are fickle, cruel, and unworthy of our worship, and are faced with a godless universe in which everything we have striven to achieve and used to keep us happy no longer holds meaning. This path is not for the faint of heart: it entails moving consciously towards, and into, a terrifying abyss. To the encultured self, it looks like being trapped inside a TV set, with no more programming, only endless snow, forever. An eternity of (cultural) emptiness.

The second choice is far worse, even if (I suspect) it presents the line of least resistance to most people. It is this: we continue to believe in our icons. We slowly accept that they live and operate inside a higher sphere of existence to us, just as we have always suspected, and that their behaviors are ultimately incomprehensible to us. Gradually we make the transition from believing that they are unfit for worship to deciding that we are unfit to judge them. Faced with the realization that it is not their goodness that bestows on them their power, we begin to accept what we unconsciously believed all along: that their power makes them good. When a movie star plays the villain, he is still very much the hero to us."

Thoughts?
 
I've been saying something similar. Clearly, it's okay to talk about how bad the Catholic Church is and about the pedo problem within it, but as you said with teachers, I've thought the same thing with other religions: surely Judaism or Islam isn't statistically any better than Catholicism. Of course we condemn Catholicism as strongly as any other group for what they've done, but they seem to be a designated pedo scape goat . . . there seems to be little other, which is suspicious.

I agree with Charlie about anything traditional being open for attack . . . that seems to be the common thread with so many things: if it's traditional, we're told it's ridiculous, out-dated, bad.

Here's a terrifying article about paedophilia within orthodox jewish communities. http://www.vice.com/read/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11
 
I have come across this article because somebody posted it in a Forum. I offer it as a "third way" between debunkers and conspiracy theorists.

I'm not saying this is "the answer" of course. I for one continue to remain puzzled. But it's very interesting food for thought, with lots of interesting insightst (especially for someone like me who is extremely interested in the synchronicity phenomenon generally).

Certainly someone like me, who believes (wants to believe!) in the existence of objectivity (meaning: that some fact either is or isn't the case, that something happened or didn't happen) finds this theory very hard to stomach. But not so easy to dismiss.
Alex, I think you (and lots of people here) will find this article interesting. Sorry it's very long. But it's definitely worth reading. Although the end of the post is predictably optimistic as well as facile, and, much more importantly, fails to explain how "we" ended up in this situation of ignorance and confusion in the first place.

https://charleseisenstein.net/essays/synchronicity-myth-and-the-new-world-order/
 
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