Politics

#1
Epic questions. Based on my current understanding, which is constantly growing, deepening, and expanding (I hope), here are few answers:



On the question of individuality, yes, we have individual souls and they are evolving; they are becoming increasingly individuated as spectacularly unique expressions of the Divine. And, on the other hand, yes, there are also primordial non-dual states that we can experience where our individuality is lost and we merge with God no longer able to perceive ourselves as individuals anymore. My current understanding is that non-dual states are more primitive forms of expression. They exist. They can be experienced by all of us. That's where we all come from. But we've been there and done that. This world is about becoming individuals, not merging back into the primordial soup that we came from. Returning to the great Oneness is easy compared to mastering the challenges of this world. NDEs, as a whole, trumpet this perspective very loudly. We are not coming to this world to learn how to leave it and escape back into non-dual states of undifferentiated oneness. We are coming here to become more fully embodied; to bring heavenly states on consciousness into the created universe; to transform earth into a reflection of heaven.

…"
IMHO, There is a middle path. My analogy is a musician that plays in a great orchestra. He learns to play in harmony - oneness - with all of the other musicians, yet is still an individual making individual contributions. Sometimes he loses himself in the sense of being one with other players and sometimes he clearly senses himself as uniquely expressing some musical phrases via his personal instrument.

The first learnings are 1. to play your instrument well 2. to play in harmony with others 3. to play in an orchestra that has a good set list; music that delivers positive energy (it is possible to achieve 1 and 2 and then play in a death metal band that encourages/inspires all manner of destructive impulses.

I think that when we have NDEs wherein a Christian goes to hell or an atheist goes to something wonderful, it is simply a matter of what the individual was actually aligning with as opposed to, superficially, what they claimed to be aligned with. I know regular church goers who are horribly judgmental, dour and frequently engage in mean gossip as a pastime. I know non-believers of various stripes that are kind and fun people.
 
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#2
Yes exactly, you put it very diplomatically Pamela, and I appreciate your ability to do so - I tend to be far more blunt in my way of expressing myself, but I most definitely do not wish to be offensive to anyone and if some people feel better believing this highly implausible interpretation of what is going on, good for them.

I am just not drinking the Kool-aid.

This NDE-based, "it's all good and it's all a game we're playing willingly" is just another religion based on blind faith, which requires abandoning all ethical common sense and which leads to absurd paradoxes, as you correctly pointed out.

To put it in a nutshell, this is a typical, morally shocking and unfalsifiable statement based on blind faith (I quote David Sunfellow's reply to my previous post): "all the injustices we see and experience in this world serve a glorious purpose that lies beyond human comprehension. "Our reasoning powers are so blind now, so humble and so simple," she wrote, "that we cannot know the high, marvelous wisdom, the might and the goodness of God."

Think this through: Islamic terrorists take the very same approach to Truth: God has a "higher purpose" that doesn't make any moral sense to us human beings, but we still should submit to it, regardless of common sense. God wants us to kill all infidels, terrorists will say, because he's perfect and good, a God of love, but in a way that we can't understand, because he requires violence in this material world to realise his perfect Plan (which only seems absurd and contradictory for us because we are too stupid). Just because NDE-based "it's-all-good religions" do not ask us to kill people doesn't make their way of thinking more logical or morally justifiable!

Thanks for the support. I don’t want to diverge too much off topic, but as an activist for Yemen who goes up against a lot of assumptions about Islam that are patently false, please remember that ‘terrorosts’ are getting guns and weapons and training from the CIA and are being bussed into the territories the CIA needs dissent to exist as an excuse to go attack there for whatever resources or geopolitical advantage they want.
Also, when you speak of terrorism and people not being allowed to choose a religion , you are referring to Wahhabism practices not Islam. Islam has Jesus as a prophet, has existed alongside Christianity in many areas that have been attacked by the terrorists so now they have to wear hijab and hide Christianity or be killed prior to our bombs ‘liberating ‘ them, and Islam does not promote violence in any way. Wahhabism is the brutal Saudi facist sect thar what we have helped our buddies the Saudis promote and spread for our own purposes. Wahhabism is like Islam as much as the KKK is like Christianity
Other than
That, thanks for the support
It is difficult to know what anyone is going through.
All of us are just guessing
Even rapists
Murderers and thieves. I have know narcissists that appear to be genuinely suffering as they ruin people’s lives ... they don’t seem to feel for others but are hypersensitive...
And I myself was toxic to two people exclusively until they died.. it was like they were in a blind spot in my heart.. I regret this in an agonizing way on a daily basis now. Make that hourly.
So this idea that cause and effect and rape an murder are all part of a plan isn’t totally implausible.
But thinking that I signed on for the life I received ...
No way.
At most I think maybe we just signed on for a crap shoot knowing the odds weren’t great. That’s about as close as I can get to that ‘choosing tbis’ idea.
And maybe we had reasons for coming here. Maybe the love we felt overcame for the families we were joining overcame our fear
And we arrived ready to throw down. But clearly this society is so horrifically distorted toward the material that it makes living hellish for many many people, and skews our best intentions until we aren’t anything like what I suspect our souls intend.
It isn’t just science skewed in this direction toward the material, most
people are.
So maybe our job is to find conviction after interacting in the world, and getting feedback good or bad, with of course a lot of self examination and then act on our discoveries in a moral way to help hammer out the funhouse mirror that isn’t so fun we are all living
I wanted to repeat again, and add that the agent that does the assenting is not the 'I' we think we know to be us. Also there is the obvious objection that who would assent to being the victim of vile crimes. It is easy to reject this proposition because it seems to so flagrantly affront what should be clear moral logic. Some will see this as worse than 'blaming the victim'. This cannot be left undiscussed.

There's also school of thought that some enter physical incarnation driven by a lust or desire so strong that the idea of 'informed consent' would seem moot at best. If it happens its at a deeper level than that line above might suggest.

From my personal life experience I am like others who have an acquired disability that radically transforms one's lived experience. I can see how I co-created what happened to me, and I can see I am richer for the experience. But others may be affronted by this idea, on their own, or on others' behalf.

It is a deeply challenging idea, David, and while I agree with you, you haven't expressed the idea as one who evidently knows from personal experience. This matters. There's nothing worse than hearing this kind of idea from somebody who has no experiential skin in the game.
I’m not rejecting David’s ideas about our reality being planned and perfect like some people feel it is in NDE’s , or LOA, or the idea of co-creation, from ignorance about them or a lack of exploration of them.
I’m rejecting them because
I used to follow these ideas and they ruined my life.
They take the meaning out of life and turn it into a lesson, turn it into a trivial thing. This can cause us to ignore or put on the back burner what is most important in life, our experiences and the experiences of those around us.
Here is what I know in the aftermath of my following them and now not following them—We are here and this is the only life we get for now that we know of. That means if you don’t take life seriously and pay attention to the people that matter you aren’t going to get a second chance.
These ideas also dont take into account that we are fields interacting with other fields, not out here all alone. . Our singular wills do not reign supreme. We are subject to the effect other energetic fields of other people and things around us have on us and vice versa.
I think there is some interaction between reality and us, but our participation in it is much less than popular notions like this infer. And of course these notions are popular, exactly because as you said they give the illusion of control, Which is an appealing and addictive notion.
This place, this world, is brutal. Just brutal for most of us. I’m not going to take the easy road and think ‘well, if that homeless person in front of me would just do a better job co-creating he wouldn’t be lying there suffering!’ And I’m not going to think ‘well, he chose that’ either.
Because it’s a cop-out and cowardly. Period.
Getting in there and feeling with people, that’s where the divinity is . Speaking from experience.
I work with the homeless and riding the bucking bronco of life is where the real spiritual action is. Not thinking positive thoughts and trying to control reality with my mind. Putting my heart on the line daily. Working through all my feelings about what I see by feeling them not intellectuslizig . This is what gives me My best most cherished and hard-won progress. It’s what makes me not a sociopath basically .
 
#3
I don’t want to diverge too much off topic, but as an activist for Yemen who goes up against a lot of assumptions about Islam that are patently false, please remember that ‘terrorosts’ are getting guns and weapons and training from the CIA and are being bussed into the territories the CIA needs dissent to exist as an excuse to go attack there for whatever resources or geopolitical advantage they want.
Yes indeed - this is something I wish the Lefty anti-Trump people would realise. The civil war in Syria seems to have been essentially instigated in this way, and Hillary Clinton pledged to continue that war.
I’m not rejecting David’s ideas about our reality being planned and perfect like some people feel it is in NDE’s , or LOA, or the idea of co-creation, from ignorance about them or a lack of exploration of them.
I’m rejecting them because
I used to follow these ideas and they ruined my life.
They take the meaning out of life and turn it into a lesson, turn it into a trivial thing. This can cause us to ignore or put on the back burner what is most important in life, our experiences and the experiences of those around us.
This expresses a lot of what I feel. If an NDE is planned, then the whole build-up to it - say a car crash - was planned. You are right - it does make life seem pointless.

My only caveat is that maybe this idea can be cast in a high dimensional form (for want of a more precise description) that makes more sense.

David
 
#4
I just feel I have to push back against this anti-Islam tirade. There is just far too much evidence of the U.S. (and UKs) selfish interference which has affected millions of innocent people’s lives world-wide to sit quietly by. Doing so will no doubt bring forth a tirade of response from some and anti-Steve feeling within others. So be it. I’m fed up of people sitting on the fence while feeling deep in their gut that they should probably say something, but feel intimidated, or shy, or whatever. Maybe I’m wrong and they agree with what’s being said and feel no need to push against it? Is it any surprise that I think I’m in the minority here on this forum?
As you know, I detest the fact that the US (aided by Britain) has ruthlessly exploited religious extremists in a large number of Middle Eastern countries, to try to topple leaders that it does not approve of.
However, I think that they were exploiting people who were already radicalized and dangerous, because they see violent uprising as the way to 'convert' their country to the one true religion.

Fortunately, I think, President Trump wants this stopped, which is a big reason why I support him.

I guess this is a fence that is two-pronged - we should not try to exploit these fanatics, but IMHO we should not let them settle in Western countries.

Taking into consideration the complete picture, I wouldn't have thought you were in a minority here.

David
 
#6
As you know, I detest the fact that the US (aided by Britain) has ruthlessly exploited religious extremists in a large number of Middle Eastern countries, to try to topple leaders that it does not approve of.
However, I think that they were exploiting people who were already radicalized and dangerous, because they see violent uprising as the way to 'convert' their country to the one true religion.

Fortunately, I think, President Trump wants this stopped, which is a big reason why I support him.

I guess this is a fence that is two-pronged - we should not try to exploit these fanatics, but IMHO we should not let them settle in Western countries.

Taking into consideration the complete picture, I wouldn't have thought you were in a minority here.

David
Wahhabism and Zionism are currently working hand in hand, I see the US as having nurtured and protected these two fanatical groups (especially Zionism) and made them much more dangerous than either of them used to be. Perhaps they were always destined to grow eventually, but we keep saying that we ‘think’ our reality, so once again, people will likely blame ‘God’, when it is to ourselves that we ought to look.

By murdering millions of innocent people, the west only has itself to blame for the situation it now finds itself in. I am constantly gob smacked at how we fail to see that our actions of the past three decades must have had a huge effect on how people across the Muslim world see things. We seem to think that we are somehow protected from harm, and that we are the good guys, they are the bad. This thinking isn’t only a small percentage of us, it’s the majority!

“Fortunately, I think, President Trump wants this stopped, which is a big reason why I support him.” ????

Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, which is much more than half the problem. So what do you see him doing that will help?

Trump —> Israel —> Zionism.
 
#7
Wahhabism and Zionism are currently working hand in hand, I see the US as having nurtured and protected these two fanatical groups (especially Zionism) and made them much more dangerous than either of them used to be. Perhaps they were always destined to grow eventually, but we keep saying that we ‘think’ our reality, so once again, people will likely blame ‘God’, when it is to ourselves that we ought to look.

By murdering millions of innocent people, the west only has itself to blame for the situation it now finds itself in. I am constantly gob smacked at how we fail to see that our actions of the past three decades must have had a huge effect on how people across the Muslim world see things. We seem to think that we are somehow protected from harm, and that we are the good guys, they are the bad. This thinking isn’t only a small percentage of us, it’s the majority!

“Fortunately, I think, President Trump wants this stopped, which is a big reason why I support him.” ????

Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, which is much more than half the problem. So what do you see him doing that will help?

Trump —> Israel —> Zionism.
Steve,
Yes Western civ is a disaster. It just plain stinks. Nothing but murdering barbarians; unlike the noble third worlders who never harm anyone.

You should move to Iran or Saudi Arabia; or maybe Afghanistan. You'll love it! They would love you! You could assist in some culture diversity by stoning some women at the government's command, maybe help perform some genital multiations - or at least attending the weekly official state sponsored head choppings. Perhaps you could volunteer with the Moral Police and find out anyone dancing to Western music and deliver some lashes to them. These are all normal things in Islamic countries, not fringe terrorist outliers, after all.

Although I note that, inexplicably, everyone wants to immigrate to horrible Western Civ and not to Sharia controlled countries. How weird!

You are a brainwashed moral preening fool of the first order. You hate Trump and America because whatever, but you fall all over yourself to express love for a culture that is abominable to women, gays and intolerant to other religions; not to mention militaristically expansionist. The only reason they aren't putting infidels to the sword, as they did for hundreds of years, in Europe, is because their religion crushed out their science and they fell behind the West. If they could, they would. They've always done it in the past.
 
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#8
You are a brainwashed moral preening fool of the first order. You hate Trump and America because whatever, but you fall all over yourself to express love for a culture that is abominable to women, gays and intolerant to other religions; not to mention militaristically expansionist. The only reason they aren't putting infidels to the sword, as they did for hundreds of years, in Europe, is because their religion crushed out their science and they fell behind the West. If they could, they would. They've always done it in the past.
And this reply kind of typifies the reason that I’m currently more wary of the US than anywhere else Eric. The red mist comes down and it’s off a ranting we go! :)

I don’t hate Trump, but I don’t like or trust him either, I don’t hate anyone. The democrats are just as bad, if not worse, they have their own overwhelming red mist over Trump. Killary and Obama are what America sees as reasonable people - many in the UK too. If I would currently choose my favourite Presidential candidate it would be Tulsi Gabbard by a mile. Your country, like all others, has amazing potential, but it’s too dumb and too fearful to see it - it’s sad. The UK is an embarrassment, so it’s not as if that’s where I’m coming from. I’m coming from my own place.

You say I “express love” for these other cultures. Exactly where is the evidence for this? No. What I am attempting to say is that is that bombing people is definitely not the way to go! How many times do we have to make that same stupid mistake before we try something different? Violence only breeds more violence.

This is an excerpt from a post you made to David Sunfellow:
“We must understand how brutal life was back then and how cruel humanity was to itself; not that we aren't still pretty rough on each other today - just back then it wasn't even understood that there is an alternative way. Christ - "the word" - was truly revolutionary and we have been enjoying the benefits of the revolution ever since.”

I don’t think Jesus meant that his teachings were for certain chosen groups - do you? He loved his enemy, didn’t he? Are you saying he was wrong? Was he a “...brainwashed moral preening fool of the first order” too?
 
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#10
And this reply kind of typifies the reason that I’m currently more wary of the US than anywhere else Eric. The red mist comes down and it’s off a ranting we go! :)
I suppose everyone can go red misty at times. You need to remember that this president has had a 3-year investigation into his conduct, which has made it very difficult for him to do his job. At the end of that, no charges or allegations have been brought against him, but the Democrats have continues to talk about investigating him, impeaching him, and imprisoning him! Shouldn't they look to some of their own policies, and those of their former leader, Hillary Clinton, for the reasons why the US people chose Donald Trump?

David
 
#11
Come on Eric, I think you should apologise now to Steve for that sentence.

David
David, I know you’re a moderator, but I really think Eric should be allowed to say what he truly feels. Otherwise we’re just putting on a dishonest show. I feel this very strongly, it was how he honestly felt when he read my post. I have learned that my reaction is mine to wear, and Eric’s the same, so I’m learning not to be a victim, it’s ok.

This probably sounds like I’m putting on a show myself, but I’m not. It’s not my site of course, but I wanted to let you know my thoughts.
 
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#12
I suppose everyone can go red misty at times. You need to remember that this president has had a 3-year investigation into his conduct, which has made it very difficult for him to do his job. At the end of that, no charges or allegations have been brought against him, but the Democrats have continues to talk about investigating him, impeaching him, and imprisoning him! Shouldn't they look to some of their own policies, and those of their former leader, Hillary Clinton, for the reasons why the US people chose Donald Trump?

David
Did you really read my post? :)

I agree with all you say about the Democrats, we just disagree on Trump. He lies constantly, that’s one of the reasons he’s in power. I’m sure he won a lot of votes on his seemingly ‘anti-war’ foreign policy stance. As Meurs said, his actions are far from his words.
 
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#13
Your own and my perception of social media seem to be different Michael. Like the internet in general, it depends where you visit. I rarely see people losing it with others where I visit. The censorship I’m talking about is not against those who are looking at things that we might all agree are questionable, but at those who question certain topics. I don’t like the banning up of all the platforms and banning Alex Jones for example, although I’m no fan of his, I think it’s the slippery slope. I see some of my friends cheering that sort of thing on, and shake my head at their naivety.

I’m up for a private chat about Trump, censorship, and much more besides. At the speed you’re able to type, you should have no problem dealing with them all simultaneously. I’m quite proud of my left handed work, but it is at snails pace.

 
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