I would suggest perhaps a bit more humbleness. No one on psychedelics has ever produced anything like the Upanashads or the Yoga Sutras. Sure, one could speculate these ancients used such substances, but then that flies in the face of what they actually say. Patanjali in Yoga Sutras even mentioned drug-induced psychic states:
4.1 The subtler attainments come with birth or are attained through herbs, mantra, austerities or concentration. (from
here, also the commentary
here is good;
here too).
Most of the states got to by psychedelics are considered lower forms of psychism. I'm telling you, Krishnananda's "If it is external, it is not eternal" is the best rule of thumb I have found.
Again, this is not to say that the drugs can't get you glimpses. But the meditation traditions hold up the standard of being able to do all this with nothing other than yourself. Just because you or I don't know anyone personally who might be able to do this doesn't mean such people do not or did not ever exist.
I would politely and kindly recommend cooling down a bit. One sure fire sign of success on these fronts is being completely relaxed and accepting the world. People that have axes to grind and points to prove are not in such a state.
All my best,
Don
Don do not get Upset! Just playing the devil! You know like your very non scientific appraisal earlier of the amatuer setting out to prove his own convictions. Someone could easily be forgiven for mistaking that silliness for an inflammatory remark. i kindly and politely ask you not to play games.
I am not your usual airy fairy spiritualist. My background no doubt. I have not even taken the gloves off yet Don. Your unfounded statements of fact will get my attention though.
Points to prove? Like your point that entheogens are not a true method? Like your point that it but a glimpse and somehow these other things that still remain obscure hold some level of reality above and beyond? Never mind historical implications eh?
It just appears as religious biggotry to me, to be honest. Humility cuts both ways Don.
Casting me as emotional is a tactic I can easily see through. Playing roles and using masks is something easily torn down from using entheogens. You seem to think I am mad, not at all. You don't know me too well. Cynical yes.
As I said I am rough around the edges. My path has been a warrior path for most of my life. I prefer the peaceful warrior, but still quite firey. I also call bullshit when I see it. I am also open to evidence and experimentation.
Let me ask you. Can you attain these levels at will. Can you attain cosmic consciousness tonight? Can you even know what it should look like? Have you actually had a kundalini awakening? Your admission seems to indicate a no.
No one on psychedelics has ever produced Upanashads or the Yoga Sutras?
Oh please, here we go. Yeah and no one on psychedelics has mastered yogic flying either. :)
Actually some shaman claim a level beyond the crown charkra of kundalini awakening, in charkras beyond those. So I think the specialness you attribute to yoga is not exclusive to it or even the full extent. You need to understand that it is not just about the substance, there are cultures who have being doing this since pre history.
Don't just throw mystical sounding indian around. It is all so vague.
The later Upanishads uphold the Yoga Sutras, among the six systems, as containing the most efficacious methods for achieving direct perception of truth. Through the practical techniques of yoga, man leaves behind forever the barren realms of speculation and cognizes in experience the veritable Essence. (Autobiography of a Yogi)
Ah, OK. But wait.. you stated earlier that these methods like those of psychedelics are not means of direct truth?
Actually, no I could speculate that this is what entheogens can do. On a personal level they definately do. But I also acknowledge the meanings can be misinterpreted, I could be wrong. Unlike this self proclamation of fact that is a tautology. This is a sign of indoctrination Into dogma, Secret techniques that promise the separation from mere mortals. To know absolute truth without a doubt no less. How could you ever be wrong?
Sorry mate, this is Just more of the same. I don't buy it. It is exactly the same situation in martial arts. Until they get in the ring. :)
Yes just as you mention.
"The Siddhis are born of birth, drugs, mantras, penance or Smadhi. (IV-1)"
It is directly tied to entheogens, there is no doubt!
Not soma being reffered to here I believe, something else. But it is deeper than that. I think it is mentioned over a hundred times in the rig veda. Soma was the heart and soul NO LESS! and not considered a lower form of psychism at all but a god in its own right!
Personally meditation is great. Does things psychedelics can't, psychedelics take you places meditation can't.
Why cant you accept this?
I think it is for the same reasons as other religions do, no different. Where do you draw the line, do you accept a polytheistic hindu view? And quite personally I think your views contradict the facts that entheogens, the soma tradition was the very heart of what you are defending!
I mean millions and millions of people have been suckered by the Maharishi and the illusory mystical allure of the east. And still are. But hey man, don't grind an axe, it's cool. Yes ignorance is bliss. Cult members are usually quite certain too. The myth of the enlightened guru has taken a flogging over the last few decades, with many self proclaimed gurus being caught in all sorts of scandalous behaviour and depravity.
There have been people who have given up everything including a substantial part of their lives following these false prophets.
And thanks very much for the admission.
"Just because you or I don't know anyone personally who might be able to do this doesn't mean such people do not or did not ever exist."
Well then... it is an empty argument. I guess no yogi can be said to produce the Upanashads either. You say only lower forms are possible from entheogens! That is a joke. You have no proof or experience to make that statement have any meaning at all, it come s from biases quite clearly.
Earlier in the thread you made this claim.
"If you want to be able to permanently go back and forth amongst the worlds (or planes) then you need a more stable foundation".
So you can travel between planes of existence huh? But don't actually know anyone who can do it? What is this then Don?
Good grief Charlie Brown. You are not fooling this fool. The mask has fallen off Don.
It may be that the ancient text refer to these experiences in relation to the sacrements. And that is what researchers are indeed finding. Hell they just outright say It in the Hindu texts It is not speculation Don. I suggest you investigate the roots of your religion. Soma was NOT considered a lower form of psychism. Are you sure you have the right religion here?