Puzzling NDE questions

Discussion in 'Critical Discussions Among Proponents and Skeptics' started by Kai, Jul 15, 2015.

  1. Kai

    Kai New

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    There have always been some things that have given me great difficulty from the statements made in NDEs.Setting aside the question of experimental or parapsychology-style evidence for NDEs themselves, what I am talking about is some of the recurring philosophy internal to NDEs themselves.

    1) The world within the light contains love and fulfilment a thousand, a million times greater than anything conceivable on the physical plane. That is the *real* world and by comparison, anything that happens here doesn't matter at all.

    But therein lies my question...why then would anyone EVER leave a state of such ecstacy, glory, and wonder, let alone leave it to enter a state of suffering, disillusion, cancer, war, and bereavement? It seems to defy hard core sense. Of course, it is said that this is for our "spiritual evolution" but again, I would have to ask, why would we care about such a thing as "spiritual evolution" (whatever it means) if we were already living in an environment of godlike happiness and perfection.

    2) suicides..and the idea that suicides are these awful kind of spiritual criminals somehow, and will have to return to earth until they "complete what they began."

    But that doesn't sound terribly loving and compassionate to me. Twist it as a can, I can't easily persuade myself that it is. In fact, it seems almost like a kind of emotional brutality. And then, what do we make of the idea, put across in so many NDEs, that everyone has their "time" to die? But wouldn't that apply to successful suicides too? How would they be a special case?
     
  2. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    During the later parts of the classic NDE I believe there is a relationship between the experient's beliefs/experiences at the time of the NDE, and the beliefs/experiences of third parties in the surrounding environment and/or family/friends. I'll call this the difference.

    Generally, whenever I know more about the experients background, the experients take home message from the NDE is often directly related to this difference... such that the take home message from the NDE, is often exactly what is required to move the persons beliefs back towards the groups average beliefs.
     
  3. Kai

    Kai New

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    To be honest, just about the only version I can *really* make sense of, in these ethical questions, is that somehow the situation in space-time is itself setting up the situation or world that is to be found in NDEs. In other words, that there is a necessary tie of some kind between the two situations. This notion appears to be directly alluded to in some NDEs:

     
  4. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    If I consider haunting type phenomena in an apparent wakeful state. Feeling strongly in the past seems to be at least one factor correlated to their perception in the future.

    The only way I can make sense of pain, suffering etc... is that similar strongly felt experiences in the past, have a tiny but genuine cumulative effect on group pricessing in the future, with a largest effect experienced by the affected individual in the future.

    This moves the groups average position on the specific issue experienced in the past, and reduces the acceptability of it in the future, with the largest effect seen in offspring of the affected individual.

    When an experience is not strongly felt, it's effects are more confined to the present.

    In this way, a bit like swing voters at an election... those who experience events that make them feel strongly in the past, have a greater effect on the group in the future.

    I definately think space-time is a way that we understand things as a group, allowing us to access and store things as a group... and thus allowing us to almost... reweave something into something else, a something else which is more acceptable to a greater part of the group.
     
  5. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    A lot of nders said, there is a plan, there is a role for everyone.

    I laugh loud madly, really, I've got mad and I am going to lose my sanity, truly, definitely, absolutely. I would be insane soon, anyone can deduce from my writing now that I just am gonna plunge into the grand great flock of the people of asylum!!!! Year! GGFPA! Great Grand FLOCK of the People of Asylum! GGFPA!

    Why? Allow me, a psycho to explain,

    Because, you know, same as may be you don't, that there is the fortunate one who takes the happy part of that plan and the fortunate role, on the one hand, whereas there is also the hapless one who takes the hellish part of that plan and the hellish role, on the other.

    The above is not the problem, not at all, rather, the problem is, honestly, that how fortunate and how happy that those who had been fortunate and happy can be? How hapless and how hellish that those who, for any unfathomable reason, whether actively took the super splendid task, or forcibly passively assigned the super martyr, had been into the haplessness and hell of the miserable earthly life, can be?

    There are kinds of sufferings which are completely unbearable and totally darkness and excruciatingly terrific and unimaginably merciless and stupidly unswallowable and I just can't type it enough in my awful English! And the people in super grand hallowed felicity just don't need to care or fathom or know!

    Some darkness are super! hyper! unbearable! You don't experience then you don't believe their existence, you experience then you know there is even darker experiences and lives, if there were heaven and inferno then they are both here, on earth, whatever plan or role, it can't be a benign plan, when you are to contemplate the more (there is no "most", just more) demonic sufferings in some corners of the earth then you know it can't be a training arranged by the Lord or the heavenly father for the growth of our spirituality, because a father won't amputate and maim his little infant child to make it strong and grow, it is not a simple unfair existent on this funny earth, it is a masterpiece by no one but demon, it is splendid, that plan, for someone is heaven, for others is hell, and the distinction and contrast between heaven and hell are not demonstrated by my stupid writing above, but by the people who actually felt them, it is just unfortunate that there is probably very few of people who know heaven and hell, both. The plan, is 75% possibly nonexistent in objectivity but only in someone who holds the interest to contrive it as a beautiful story, while it is also 15% possibly actually existent as a demonic conspiracy, definitely, I believe the darkness is the truth, I just tremble. The happy ones can continue to be happy, why? Because that's also a part of that demonic plan!

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    I don't mean anything offending, when contemplating the happy ones, I can safely assume they are temporary or illusory, why? Easy, when anyone is to contemplate the grand masterpiece by demon in some corners of this funny earth, he would know I'm not exaggerating, good luck for everyone, the plan is not funny.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
  6. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    If my words would offend anyone or make anyone uneasy I deeply apologize but I tell the truth.

    Trying not to sound harsh, I would like to address that my attitude towards the people who currently are still super happy, is not jealous or envy, or more precisely, my justified envy towards them had been overlapped and mitigated and neutralized by another set of euphoria sensation towards them, because if there would still be someone who is super purely happy in this funny world infested and manoeuvred by an invisible dark hand, then God must still be loving, in a strange way, towards only a certain group of people picked by unfathomable criterion, leaving the rest to the hell.
    But some of the super purely happy ones are demons themselves, and they weave their happiness upon the hapless victims who had been captured by them, I feel no solace when contemplating their happiness, and no lucky when contemplating the victims' suffering.

    The nders' sweet revelation about love, plan, spiritual growth, etc are probably only a soothing resort to cure their health.
    For the happy people who intrinsically refuse any dark truth-telling words lest they could potentially delapidate their divine happiness, I sincerely pray for their happiness lasting long.
    For the happy people who always embrace fairy tales and refuse to listen anything addressing the darkness behind the people who have been suffering from some unbearable torment, I will not try to persuade them or waggle them or interfere their justified happiness. Although it sounds funny to behold heaven from the position of the hell, you would feel totally privileged to at least glance a fairy tale when you are desperately trapped by a hellish misery, the fairy tale is then stupid, but beautiful, celestially marvelously beautiful, in your eyes when you are standing in lava in the hell suffering the so-called plan betrothed by whateve unknown ridiculous reason and grotesque force. The plan could never be funny. Call me mad but I have told the truth.

    I'm mad now but it is justified, for the happy people you don't feel too lucky unless you are demons who are behind my suffering, otherwise then be careful, who knows the dark force who is behind my suffering as well as even more hapless people's, would rampage and sweep to wherever other places? I'm not bragging but he PLAN's purpose and nature are completely grotesque. Take care please.

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
  7. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I have a lot of sympathy with those comments. I would add afurther point - there is a suggestion in some NDE's - made explicit in some asian NDE's that the whole thing is some sort of mistake - which seems decidedly weird.

    However I don't think they reflect on the significance of NDE's - more on the fact that the realm out there must be vastly different from existence on Earth.

    The interesting thing is that most of us like to temporarily suspend our lives and enter into another 'reality' - computer (and non-computer) games, novels, films etc. Often these alternative realities are vastly inferior to our normal lives, and yet we do find this worth doing.

    The significance of suicide is also odd. I mean, if your life was pre-ordained (another common idea) then so was its end in suicide! indeed, pre-ordained life seems to absolve people of all responsibility. Maybe life consists of pre-ordained segments which are bolted together with genuine choice points - who knows!

    I have long since given up hope of reaching a completely consistent view of these issues, but the 'conventional' materialist point of view seems very flawed too.

    David
     
  8. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Hello respected David, my mad words are said to the vacuum, when speaking to someone I keep sober as I can,

    They can be inferior, but you do not plunge into those lives depicted by fictions, the vicarious experience is drastically different from our earthly life, which is experienced by us with the whole heart, because in the deep heart we all know we probably have only one life to live, no matter how someone superficially pretends to deny it. The fairy tales are easy to embrace when you are happy in the true earthly life, and when someone has tasted what is true bitter, his fairy tales just disillusioned.

    We currently can't say any theory with reference to "flawless", every theory is flawed.
    But ndes are repeating cliche without shedding any further information, whereas science is everlastingly developing, everyday, tons of new research results and theories come out.

    Conversely, many nders said they met Jesus in another dimension, but how they know that was Jesus? Any further information? For example, if I go to David's hometown and see a respected scholar or a muscled athlete or a handsome superstar, whoever I think: "Well, this must be David!", I salute to him: "Nice to meet you! David! Do you remember me, one of the skeptiko forum friend who posted mad words ..."
    Then he might say: "Wait wait, first, my name is not David, you must recognize wrongly, and I don't know any skepticool forum, and ..."
    Or I'm dumbly fortunate enough that this just is David, and you said: "I remember that forum member, I didn't even care about reading his grotesque replies, but how could you find me and know I'm just that David?", and many other words,
    and further conversation ... ...

    NDEs, which provide no reasonable "content full of details" but just recognize that was Jesus undeniably. Well, for thousands of years, religions provide no further information about their Gods, heaven, angels, etc.
    While science has brooded out the iphone 7, I mean in the future not long, which could be reasonably relied on? Curiously that there could be anyone believe a sudden appeared person as Jesus without any detailed communication.
     
  9. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    I mean, science, sounds easy, taken for granted (by non-technical common people), and mundane, but its evolution has been arduous and fruitful,
    whereas superstitious, sounds hard, wise, and mysterious, but is actually hollow, void, repetitive, pretentious, and cliche,

    iphone 7 is not pinched out from nothingness, think about the technologies behind it and how long a time required by human civilization to conceive, contrive and amass these technologies to bring it into existence.

    I'm not professional, but I think a factory work line worker knows how to assemble the tiny conductors, transistors, integrated circuits, liquid crystal panels, etc, better than an ios app high-level language programmer, though this worker himself can't program, neither can the chipset inventors, who specialized in improving the core chipset's architectures and low-level language programming (which is related to usually more difficult and intricate programming languages than those of high-level).
    A user interface and the cellphone outer appearance designer masters other sets of skills.
    All of above owes their thriving to the fundamental and theoretical physics and manufactory industry technics on which the hardwares' existence are dependent.

    By contrast, for thousands of years, what had the religions told us! Nothing at all, the Bible didn't even refer to that there should be light or tunnel when someone was going to meet Jesus.
    Why there could be anyone believe in anything without "content full of details" and actually is information-starving, and benefit-unpresentable?

    I strongly believe, reality is based upon "content full of details", no details and informations, no reality.
     
  10. Kai

    Kai New

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    David, it does worry me a bit, I must admit. In my newfound self I am trying to give these experiences the maximum leeway, as you know. But I'd be lying if I said this aspect doesn't bother me. It doesn't make belief easy, imo. Now I know that many things in an NDE are to be taken symbolically. The "mistakes" you refer to for instance (I presume you are referring to the "why did you bring Nazish, we meant for you to bring Azish" kind of cases?), I think that is a kind of symbolic drama for "you must go back." It's more the you must go back itself, that bugs me. If that is really a choice, then why do people end up back here anyway, even when they remember "chosing" not to come back? I'm sure you've read cases like that. It's also rather hard to believe that some peoples' "life plans" involve being butchered to pieces in family feuds in rural Africa or being sold as sex-slave children in Indonesia. It's a puzzling claim indeed that our lives are all these plans, and again it leads to some strong ethical problematics, imo.

    Perhaps this whole life plan thing is just not to be taken literally. This hectoring insistance on "you must go back" is that one area in which this otherwise very liberating, expansive and boundary-breaking experience becomes inexplicably authoritarian.
     
  11. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I actually did mean the whole going back business!
    I do get the feeling that any meaningful afterlife will have to be extraordinarily different in all sorts of ways - which is what NDE folk do seem to be saying.

    I mean, there are all sorts of problems with the concept of an afterlife - not least, what do people do with all that time!

    I guess the situation is not unlike giving people from an unexplored part of the Amazon, a 10 minute view of somewhere in the West - each at a different location. Imagine them discussing what they had seen - one saw a crowded motorway, another saw a Utah desert, another went to a department store, yet another saw the Pluto mission!

    I do draw one conclusion - any afterlife must by quite heterogeneous - nothing like the traditional concept of heaven (or hell).

    On the other hand, the real problem with materialist explanations of NDE's, is that they are utterly arbitrary, and don't begin to explain the content of these experiences!

    David
     
  12. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I speculated about the "it's not you time, you have to go back" type comments during the later parts of the NDE, in a post on here last year...

    http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/how-to-explain-frequency-of-nde.831/#post-20603

    I still feel the same way... Once you put yourself in the mind of third parties around the patient, (and/or perhaps family/friends further afield), these sorts of experiences make far more sense to me.
     
  13. Kai

    Kai New

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    Max,

    Yes, I can imagine that the thoughts of others have an effect in drawing people back, especially all taken as one universal consciousness interacting with itself. I'm not sure it's the explanation of "you must go back" though...which seems to act even on lonely mountaineers.
     
  14. Kai

    Kai New

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    David

    The materialist explanations indeed do not seem satisfying.

    The way I try to interpret the "plan" scenario is sort of Anita Moorjani's way...from a time-spanning perspective, "this over here" has to happen for "that over there" to happen. In simple terms, some actions on my part, or some suicides, are bound to cause some future persons not to exist. What isn't clear (to me anyway) is why the alternative things that will come into existence as a result of those actions or suicides (suicides, after all, will cause certain other future persons to be born who otherwise may not have been born)...why are they not just as "valid"?
     
  15. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Hello respected Kai, I'm sorry for my mad words.
    I forgot I quoted your post, I thought that was your quotation from other sources as excerpt.

    For your saying that the PLAN, if it requires us to be on the "right path", prohibits some future events from happening as well as ensures another set of things to happen, your meaning is similar to that of mine, that why there is the super contrast between the super happy fate and super miserable fate, of people. I couldn't stress enough the degree of this super contrast.

    My explanation to these unfairness, is that probably all are meaningless, and "all will disappear" justifys their meaninglessness.
    The ndes (and their revelations) are only meaningful in the sense of making the nders feel better, they reveal not many information and no truth.
    When there is no answer, "all will disappear" is the answer. I mean, by "there is no answer", not that "I do not know the answer", but "there is no answer anywhere at all".
    So there probably is no afterlife, all of us will disappear one day and then there would be no one and no need to seek for any answer to questions like "why the plan requires this path, not that?", "why there is super happy people while other ethically equal people are suffering tremendously desperately?".
    Plan, path, Gods, questions, answers, all will disappear, and be demontratively ultimately meaningless.

    It is ridiculous that many nders affirm the one they met in their nde is God, God is an absolute concept, which implies that there is no higher existence, like the mathematic infinite which implies there is no "more", no "larger", etc.
    And absolute concept needs to be treated extremely carefully! How could anyone confirm the one they met in their nde is God or Jesus at the first shot? Like I said, the Bible made almost zero description about what Jesus should look like, or any of his traits, only very few anecdotes about what he had done, for example, tutoring 12 apostles, but anyone can find 12 apostles to tutor, what's the unique trait of Jesus? The events done by the people in Bible, can be done by anyone, in the sense of revealing someone's characteristics. The events are all cold, rigorous, emotionless.

    Think about that I'm very unique in this forum, writing awful English, being mentally insane, etc. You can distinguish me from other members better than distinguishing Jesus or God because Bible did not present any of their unmistakable distinctions.
    Everything honest, sincere, non-deceitful, requires "content full of details" to present. What the information nders drew from their ndes? Nothing or camouflage informations, like "I know everything but I don't remember right now", "They are impossible to explain", "Jesus talked a lot with me", but what the content you communicated? "I don't remember", "There is nothing but love", etc.
    They are disguised informations, meaning that they strive to look like containing many informations but actually completely none.

    I said I was mad, because I suffer, but I'm not mad in the sense that I now also say that my above stupid writings are also possibly all wrong!
    Well, if God does exist, I need to ask His Highness about the answer to the super unfairness of the super contrast between happy and horrific lives happening on earth. But I would not so easily recognize anyone as God.
    Imagine an ant, for the whole of its life, carrying food is its task, its instinct, its dream, it must feel arduous but glorious to carry a snippet of rice back to its home, if someone, for example, a human being helped it to carry tons of rice to its home immediately and managed to let it know, it may consider this human being as its God.
    Similarly, between we, human being, trivial species in the vast universe, and the absolute ultimate concept God, there can be many super-powered existence who "seem" like God to us. To make any undeniable confirmation without telling and digging "content full of details", is one of the reasons that I tend to refuse to accept the semantic meanings directly revealed by nders' narration and their demonstrations like "there is a plan", etc.
     
  16. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I don't know the case, but an isolated mountaineer fits the bill for friends/relations worrying about them coming back.

    In all cases that I've considered, alike patterns seem capable of coherence, and the external world seems to act like a shared storage system.
     
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  17. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Hello respected Max_B, if I understand correctly, you suggest that the mechanism responsible of gleaning others thoughts (by some electrical magnetic field interactions which I do not understand), can work very remotely, so it doesn't matter whether the nders' friends or relatives were in vicinity of the experient's near dead body.

    But then, the communication path could contain quite a lot of noises, how could this mechanism pinpoint the very field that was pertinent to its situation?
    That is to say, there may be another mechanism to link the experient's field, spinal dendrite, microtube structures, centriole or anything I don't understand with those of the people concerning the experient, like there is a quantum superposition between them.

    May be a lonely adventurer's friends or relatives actually may not have a reasonable heightened worrying, if on one ever sensed that this adventurer could be in danger right now (when the nde happened).

    Since nders' narrations of "you must go back" contain very very less information, the researchers could probably draw nothing meaningful from them.
     
  18. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    I mean, thoughts are very very noisy, for example, when nurses and doctors were trying to save the nder, they might not only think about "come back", even if they said so.

    The doctor might consider how much voltage is exactly appropriate for this very patient or injured, when using resuscitator, what posture to pose the patient's body, what is the name of that new come nurse, he would be gonna call her to fetch that apparatus nearest to her, or his cellphone rang, he might think, although he currently had no time to receive but at least let me have a little guess it might be who was calling him.

    The instances under which ndes occur can be drastically diverse and various, but the thoughts gleaned, have not been quite extensively deviant from several cliche "I must go back", "It's not your time", etc. Isn't it strange?
     
  19. Boo boo

    Boo boo New

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    I do agree with part of what tarantulanebula said. The part about the NDEs and things like that, being just a 'soothing resort to cure one's health. That does float around in my mind, but only sometimes.
    And I also agree with the part about some believing in the "fairy tales" and refusing to accept/look at the 'contradicting evidence'. Yeah, some believers are like that... And so are some materialists.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
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  20. Kai

    Kai New

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    Nebula:

    I doubt it. But I know very well where you're coming from.

    Max and David:

    If we want an explanation rooted here for the whole "you must go back thing" it really isn't necessary to ponder anything more fanciful than a drive to survival. It's already a complete account and we don't need to add to it with ancillary assumptions. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm entirely persuaded by an explanation rooted here in its completeness. There's too much else going on in NDEs, and the claim that we upset a tapestry by "deserting our posts" actually makes an eerie kind of sense, even if I don't like it too much. Yes, it *is* likely that by doing a suicide, we cause future persons not to be, and the "tapestry", considered in a cross-temporal manner, may have to compensate for the act, possibly always with a net increase in overall suffering to get us back on target to the same future. Of course, there is no proof of that. But it does make a kind of sense.

    Now I might also prevent future persons from existing by other acts in life...marrying this person as opposed to that person, for example, or moving house versus not moving house. But from a certain standpoint these may be actions "within the system" and not an action to "exit the system" which might possibly have a different connotation.

    It does seem odious of course that some lives seem "charmed" while others are quite horrendous. On no account do I really believe that people "chose" those horrific lives from a menu. On the other hand I get the feeling that from the spiritual perspective, our identities here don't matter as much as we like to believe. They serve a purpose, like nails holding up a picture frame serve a purpose, but are not an end in themselves.
     

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