Raymond Moody Question ?

#1
I was listening to this interview with Raymond Moody yesterday and he talks early on (+/-12 mins)about an NDE where a man survived a terrible car crash(losing both his legs ),but his wife was killed,the man reported an NDE. The man wrote a book about it and feeling guilty about having talked about the surgeon who worked on him but never having contacted him again before the book came out, he contacted the surgeon and invited him to lunch. During the conversation the surgeon became very solemn and said that he had known that the man wouldn't die as he worked on him, as the veil had lifted in the theater and he had communicated with the man's dead wife ! He had told no-one about this.

I have heard Moody mention this in another interview and I get the impression that he feels that there comes a point after all the things he has heard that he has stopped trying to find scientific reasons for these things in a way, I feel he has now gone beyond that and just believes them. I got that impression from the Afterlife debate where he and Eben Alexander 'took on' the skeptics, he didn't really try to convince them ? His heart wasn't in the argument, he has moved beyond that, cases such as the one above have finally convinced him of 'something' ?

I have sympathy with such a view, although in my case it is basically faith (Oh the shame!!!) that enough people are telling the truth when they talk of amazing experiences, for me there is overwhelming evidence. Lucky for the skeptics I am not a scientist !

Actually I wanted to know if anyone has heard Moody talk more about this case, at one point he seems to mention that he is going to interview the surgeon? He might be furtive because the surgeon might not be too keen to bring his experience to too many peoples attention ?

 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#3
Thanks for posting the video. I'm just listening now, but from your description it sounds like Jeff Olsen's NDE.
http://ndestories.org/jeff-c-olsen/
I think that might be it, but I'm not sure. I read Olsen's book, I Knew Their Hearts (2012). (short, moving, 108 pages.)

Pages 65-66. The details aren't exactly like Moody is saying, if it's the same man. Moody is saying this guy called his doctor to talk to him at a restaurant. Olsen said he was starting to receive visitors at his home when he was well enough, and his ER trauma doctor and nurse showed up. The nurse then told him why they came to see him, and tearfully said that she was the first person to come into his hospital room, felt an extremely intense feeling of love, saw he was surrounded by light, and saw the form of a woman standing by his body. Olsen in his NDE had seen and communicated with his wife's spirit after the car accident. Then the doctor spoke and said he had not seen a spirit, but felt a presence as they worked on him, that communicated the importance of saving him, and he felt her say (not hearing, but felt) "Thank you".

Here's an interview with Olsen where he's talking about his new, 2nd book. He doesn't mention Moody but says a publisher approached him. It wasn't just his wife that died, but one of his two children. In any event, two similar stories!
 
#4
I was listening to this interview with Raymond Moody yesterday and he talks early on (+/-12 mins)about an NDE where a man survived a terrible car crash(losing both his legs ),but his wife was killed,the man reported an NDE. The man wrote a book about it and feeling guilty about having talked about the surgeon who worked on him but never having contacted him again before the book came out, he contacted the surgeon and invited him to lunch. During the conversation the surgeon became very solemn and said that he had known that the man wouldn't die as he worked on him, as the veil had lifted in the theater and he had communicated with the man's dead wife ! He had told no-one about this.

I have heard Moody mention this in another interview and I get the impression that he feels that there comes a point after all the things he has heard that he has stopped trying to find scientific reasons for these things in a way, I feel he has now gone beyond that and just believes them. I got that impression from the Afterlife debate where he and Eben Alexander 'took on' the skeptics, he didn't really try to convince them ? His heart wasn't in the argument, he has moved beyond that, cases such as the one above have finally convinced him of 'something' ?

I have sympathy with such a view, although in my case it is basically faith (Oh the shame!!!) that enough people are telling the truth when they talk of amazing experiences, for me there is overwhelming evidence. Lucky for the skeptics I am not a scientist !

Actually I wanted to know if anyone has heard Moody talk more about this case, at one point he seems to mention that he is going to interview the surgeon? He might be furtive because the surgeon might not be too keen to bring his experience to too many peoples attention ?

Hey Steve! When you gonna upload your avatar picture again. Your big old smile cheered everyone up ;)
 
#5
Hey Steve! When you gonna upload your avatar picture again. Your big old smile cheered everyone up ;)
Thanks Malf.

Actually I tried swapping avatars months ago, but after deleting the one of Feynman that I had, I couldn't upload a different one ? Maybe I'll try on my wife Imac, this Ipad is maxed out with woo ! :)
 
#6
Did anyone else notice that Raymond Moody called parapsychology a "pseudoscience" during his "debate" on NDE, then proclaimed to be able to validate/prove the reality of NDE through philosophical maneuvering alone? I respect Moody for collecting the data he has -- it is valuable. Beyond that, I think he should keep his personal justifications for belief to himself, as they are not terribly useful.
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#7
Did anyone else notice that Raymond Moody called parapsychology a "pseudoscience" during his "debate" on NDE, then proclaimed to be able to validate/prove the reality of NDE through philosophical maneuvering alone? I respect Moody for collecting the data he has -- it is valuable. Beyond that, I think he should keep his personal justifications for belief to himself, as they are not terribly useful.
Yeah, even though I think he's tried to explain those views on Skeptiko, I personally still don't get it.
 
#9
Under the conversations button I've been having a chat with a few others under the title Streaming IANDS conference and mentioned a video lecture by Moody here http://sfts.tv/shows/dr-raymond-moody-at-iands/
It now is a paid for view but by some glitch I watched it for free and Moody talks about this case and says it's Jeff Olsen and uses it as some kind of evidence that it's finally convinced him there is life after death.

But the story as I remember he told it is that Olsen contacts the hospital to talk to doctors about it expecting a rebuttal and they subsequently tell him that they witnessed they know he's talking truth because the dead wife appeared to them.

But in the book which I have it is claimed a couple visit him in the hospital - not at home as mentioned above - people he didn't recognise.

Quoting from the book: "They introduced themselves as members of my first ER trauma team, the ER doctor and nurse at LDS Hospital who were some of the first to treat me. I was touched that they cared enough to come and see me at a different hospital, months after the accident"

Then the nurse says that as she entered the room where he was being treated she felt intense love and saw him surrounded by light and the form of a woman standing by him.

The doctor hadn't seen any figure but had experienced a powerful presence and he "felt my wife there with them as they worked on me. He said she had communicated to him the importance of saving my life"

So it seems that Moody is getting mixed up about what happened in the case.

On another issue I did post this in the conversation about that video lecture:


But he did claim a breakthrough in rational investigation - "we are on the verge of a real breakthrough in the study of the afterlife" is how he put it.

But he said the breakthrough won't come through parapsychology which he said is a pseudo-science.

And then, oddly I thought, he indicated it will be proved through dying people talking nonsense! I thought I'd misheard and that he'd been referring to terminal lucidity (mentioned in this thread) but he wasn't. For he took a vote of the audience and found I think 30-40 per cent had experience of the dying talking gobbledegook.

He revealed a graduate student from Berkeley is now doing research on this.

I gather his theory is that as the a person dies the mind generates nonsense as it goes from one state of existence to another.

He said "At some point we will be able to track the mind as it goes to another state of existence"

I can't imagine selling this theory to a sceptic - "deathbed ramblings indicate an afterlife OK?"

Terminal lucidity seems a far more fruitful area of research surely?
 
#11
But why is Moody so impressed with this case compared to similar stories elsewhere?
Presumably because an impressive NDE, involving a meeting with a dead person, is confirmed by a nurse who also independently saw that person in a shared experience along with a doctor who had a strong message from that person confirming her identity.

Are there similar cases?

That said, I would like to see named testimonies from the doctor and the nurse......
 
#12
Under the conversations button I've been having a chat with a few others under the title Streaming IANDS conference and mentioned a video lecture by Moody here http://sfts.tv/shows/dr-raymond-moody-at-iands/
It now is a paid for view but by some glitch I watched it for free and Moody talks about this case and says it's Jeff Olsen and uses it as some kind of evidence that it's finally convinced him there is life after death.

But the story as I remember he told it is that Olsen contacts the hospital to talk to doctors about it expecting a rebuttal and they subsequently tell him that they witnessed they know he's talking truth because the dead wife appeared to them.

But in the book which I have it is claimed a couple visit him in the hospital - not at home as mentioned above - people he didn't recognise.

Quoting from the book: "They introduced themselves as members of my first ER trauma team, the ER doctor and nurse at LDS Hospital who were some of the first to treat me. I was touched that they cared enough to come and see me at a different hospital, months after the accident"

Then the nurse says that as she entered the room where he was being treated she felt intense love and saw him surrounded by light and the form of a woman standing by him.

The doctor hadn't seen any figure but had experienced a powerful presence and he "felt my wife there with them as they worked on me. He said she had communicated to him the importance of saving my life"

So it seems that Moody is getting mixed up about what happened in the case.

On another issue I did post this in the conversation about that video lecture:


But he did claim a breakthrough in rational investigation - "we are on the verge of a real breakthrough in the study of the afterlife" is how he put it.

But he said the breakthrough won't come through parapsychology which he said is a pseudo-science.

And then, oddly I thought, he indicated it will be proved through dying people talking nonsense! I thought I'd misheard and that he'd been referring to terminal lucidity (mentioned in this thread) but he wasn't. For he took a vote of the audience and found I think 30-40 per cent had experience of the dying talking gobbledegook.

He revealed a graduate student from Berkeley is now doing research on this.

I gather his theory is that as the a person dies the mind generates nonsense as it goes from one state of existence to another.

He said "At some point we will be able to track the mind as it goes to another state of existence"

I can't imagine selling this theory to a sceptic - "deathbed ramblings indicate an afterlife OK?"

Terminal lucidity seems a far more fruitful area of research surely?
 
#13
Presumably because an impressive NDE, involving a meeting with a dead person, is confirmed by a nurse who also independently saw that person in a shared experience along with a doctor who had a strong message from that person confirming her identity.

Are there similar cases?

That said, I would like to see named testimonies from the doctor and the nurse......
Reminds me a bit of Larry_P's NDE on Nderf... which I find really interesting...

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/larry_p_nde.htm

He bumps into the surgeon again who saved his leg, whilst at a buffet.... And the surgeon indicating that there had been an issue... and that Larrys NDE, was somehow related to what the Surgeon was experiencing.
 
#14
I get the impression that he feels that there comes a point after all the things he has heard that he has stopped trying to find scientific reasons for these things in a way, I feel he has now gone beyond that and just believes them. I got that impression from the Afterlife debate where he and Eben Alexander 'took on' the skeptics, he didn't really try to convince them ? His heart wasn't in the argument, he has moved beyond that, cases such as the one above have finally convinced him of 'something' ?
I think the most vociferous proponents are often the more recent converts... those who think they believe, but still have niggling doubts in the backs of their minds. Their efforts at argumentation are an effort to silence those last remaining personal doubts by enlarging the consensus around their own position. It also helps to be relatively young and idealistic. When you get to be Moody's age, I don't think changing peoples' minds seems very important anymore.
 
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