Richard Cox, is 9/11 Deeply Spiritual? |428|

[Typoz]

When people talk about "being spiritual" they are referring to a mind control club; group think, a cult. Screw that. Don't let assholes idiots define what you are. There's lots of them out there. And they like to control everything they can. Even The Buddha.

Absolutely not. Perhaps you meant 'When Eric Newhill talks about "being spiritual" ...

One of the interesting things about the present day is that interest in organised religion is on the wane for many. But that doesn't mean they turned their backs on the deeper things, the term "Spiritual but not religious" is now often used as a catch-all label to describe such people. (Usually self-described). But within that grouping there are many, many different interpretations of what it means, to be spiritual. You seem to have chosen a meaning which I consider most of those people would reject, as I do.

 

[Eric Newhill]

Absolutely not. Perhaps you meant 'When Eric Newhill talks about "being spiritual" ...

One of the interesting things about the present day is that interest in organised religion is on the wane for many. But that doesn't mean they turned their backs on the deeper things, the term "Spiritual but not religious" is now often used as a catch-all label to describe such people. (Usually self-described). But within that grouping there are many, many different interpretations of what it means, to be spiritual. You seem to have chosen a meaning which I consider most of those people would reject, as I do.

Not sure what you mean here.

All I'm saying is that since we are spiritual beings/consciousness, then everything we do is spiritual. Very simple. How have you managed to get that screwed up?

If you want to believe some religious dogma, that's your choice. I say it is mind control to accept whatever they tell you. If you want to accept the dogma don't expect me to agree with it. You're way over complicating matters. The propagators of the dogma, like the government, tell you that you that you are in grave danger and need their wisdom to be saved. That framing is the red flag for me.

 

[Richard Cox]

Richard, Anthony Storrs book Feet of Clay which is a study on gurus is well worth reading, It’s an old book but still relevant.

I believe that If we were truly aware of everything unseen that influences us we wouldn’t be able to function, on a mundane level it could be higher frequencies of sound or subtle aromas, animals and insects have a greater awareness because they need it to survive, perhaps we lost this ability long ago, although people in war situations talk about the smell of fear. Alex questioning whether entities are influencing people of power and world events is valid, but scary. Perhaps we should all be aware of the personality types and childhood backgrounds of people who are attracted to positions of power especially the charismatic ones. The only safe people to hold power are those that don’t want it.

I read Gurus, Feet of Clay about fifteen years ago. It was one of the books that really shaped my thinking on the whole issue, along with Tim Freke and Peter Gandy's The Laughing Jesus.

Unfortunately it seems that, far from being cautious of charismatic leaders, humans have a tendency to be drawn to them. We see this going right back to the myth of Narcissus and Echo. Whilst Narcissus is completely absorbed into his own image, Echo loses herself staring at Narcissus. The Greeks recognising the narcissist / co-dependent relationship. Both types lack a well defined sense of self, with the former addressing that through self aggrandisement and the latter through aggrandising another. This is what Chris Johnston observed in himself regarding his relationship to his guru.

As we're discussing conspiracy theory here also, it's worth observing that it has it's share of charismatic leaders too, who some would say do as much to mislead as the more troubling gurus do. So it's a problem that transcends boundaries.

What Alex and I discussed in the interview was the need to overcome this by finding a solid sense of self within. Whilst I'm completely on board with this, I also think that can be a long journey. Indeed that kind of self discovery is why people get into some sort of spiritual practice in the first place. I think it's necessary also to consider then what people hunger for that a narcissistic leader provides, and how to speak to that need in a way that encourages growth and not dependence. Without acknowledging that there is something very powerful in the narcissist we can not hop to address the problem.

 

[Adam Fitzgerald]

Is there any strong evidence about the involvement of Israel, whether they helped in planning or merely had foreknowledge?

In regards to Israeli foreknowledge, you will have to read the FBI field report regarding the 5 Israeli's arrested by the NJ East Ruthersford Police and given over to the FBI after their questioning. It seems these Israeli's, whom were employed by Urban Moving Systems, knew more than what they were originally testified to.

https://archive.org/details/DancingIsraelisFBIReport/page/n19

 

[Larry]

I read Gurus, Feet of Clay about fifteen years ago. It was one of the books that really shaped my thinking on the whole issue, along with Tim Freke and Peter Gandy's The Laughing Jesus.

Unfortunately it seems that, far from being cautious of charismatic leaders, humans have a tendency to be drawn to them. We see this going right back to the myth of Narcissus and Echo. Whilst Narcissus is completely absorbed into his own image, Echo loses herself staring at Narcissus. The Greeks recognising the narcissist / co-dependent relationship. Both types lack a well defined sense of self, with the former addressing that through self aggrandisement and the latter through aggrandising another. This is what Chris Johnston observed in himself regarding his relationship to his guru.

As we're discussing conspiracy theory here also, it's worth observing that it has it's share of charismatic leaders too, who some would say do as much to mislead as the more troubling gurus do. So it's a problem that transcends boundaries.

What Alex and I discussed in the interview was the need to overcome this by finding a solid sense of self within. Whilst I'm completely on board with this, I also think that can be a long journey. Indeed that kind of self discovery is why people get into some sort of spiritual practice in the first place. I think it's necessary also to consider then what people hunger for that a narcissistic leader provides, and how to speak to that need in a way that encourages growth and not dependence. Without acknowledging that there is something very powerful in the narcissist we can not hop to address the problem.

""What Alex and I discussed in the interview was the need to overcome this by finding a solid sense of self within.""

I think it's important to distinguish a healthy idealization from a pathological one. A healthy one would encourage a person at any stage of development toward a trajectory toward self realization. Just as it's necessary for a parent to allow and tolerate a child at phase appropriate times to "idealize" them and - resist the urge to allow that to activate a primitive urge to feed their ego with narcissistic supplies - so it is with teachers, mentors, guru's. . .
I think it's also worth noting how the seductive power of idealization destabilizes the psyche and it's necessary for a leader in any respect to have peers to notice and point out when that grandiose demiurge is activated. Jung addressed this in his idea that one's shadow is hidden from oneself and requires another to expose it. "absolute power corrupts absolutely" might apply

 

[Richard Cox]

One thing that never seems to fit, is that several members of the Bin Laden family were spirited out of the US while all other flights were grounded!


David

There's more to the Saudi connection than just the story of the Bin Laden's on flights out of the US.

When high value Al Qaeda target Abu Zubydah was captured in Pakistan, the CIA set up a ruse aimed at convincing him he'd been renditioned to Saudi Arabia. The idea being this would scare him into talking. Instead he was relieved and provided a phone number for a Saudi Prince for his captors to call. He went on to explain Osama Bin Laden had told him of a relationship between The Kingdom and Al Qaeda had existed since 1991, where the former funded the latter. He also spoke of a similar relationship existing with Pakistani ISI. (Originally reported by Gerald Posner, I'm taking it from The Watchdogs didn't Bark).

It's worth noting that the three Saudi Royal's Zubydah fingered all promptly and conveniently died in reasonably suspicious circumstances.

I've mentioned Nawaf al Hazmi and Khalid al Mihdhar, the two hijackers the CIA effectively protected by blocking the FBI from knowing they had entered the United States. From the time they arrived in Los Angles they were looked after by two Saudi men, Omar Bayoumi and Osama Basnan. These two were receiving funding from Saudi Ambassador to the US, Prince Bandar bin Sultan. Prince Bander's unlisted home phone number was also found in Abu Zubydah's address book.

 

[Eric Newhill]

There's more to the Saudi connection than just the story of the Bin Laden's on flights out of the US.

When high value Al Qaeda target Abu Zubydah was captured in Pakistan, the CIA set up a ruse aimed at convincing him he'd been renditioned to Saudi Arabia. The idea being this would scare him into talking. Instead he was relieved and provided a phone number for a Saudi Prince for his captors to call. He went on to explain Osama Bin Laden had told him of a relationship between The Kingdom and Al Qaeda had existed since 1991, where the former funded the latter. He also spoke of a similar relationship existing with Pakistani ISI. (Originally reported by Gerald Posner, I'm taking it from The Watchdogs didn't Bark).

It's worth noting that the three Saudi Royal's Zubydah fingered all promptly and conveniently died in reasonably suspicious circumstances.

I've mentioned Nawaf al Hazmi and Khalid al Mihdhar, the two hijackers the CIA effectively protected by blocking the FBI from knowing they had entered the United States. From the time they arrived in Los Angles they were looked after by two Saudi men, Omar Bayoumi and Osama Basnan. These two were receiving funding from Saudi Ambassador to the US, Prince Bandar bin Sultan. Prince Bander's unlisted home phone number was also found in Abu Zubydah's address book.

Some Saudis - even royalty - have supported radical wahabi, takfiri, etc. jihadism. Some Saudis and some Gulfies were supporting ISIS (as were some American and British neocons + Israeli Zionists) and some support AQ. However, that doesn't mean that they all do. And there are different levels of support. And there's the whole geopolitical game of keeping Shia Iran in check.

None of that means that the Bin Laden family, as a whole, supports jihad.

 

[Creativemind]

Crack in the official BS story. EXPLOSIVES..... not airplanes or tooth fairies.
"
For the first time ever, an elected body in the United States is stating that it is “beyond any doubt” that explosives – not plane impacts and fires alone – destroyed the three World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001.
Commissioners from the Franklin Square and Munson Fire District, located near Queens, New York, unanimously passed a historic resolution on July 24 that calls for a new investigation into all aspects of 9/11 and which cites “overwhelming evidence” that explosives were planted in all three towers prior to 9/11. The resolution states that the district’s Board of Fire Commissioners “fully supports a comprehensive federal grand jury investigation and prosecution of every crime related to the attacks of September 11…”
“It was a mass murder,” Commissioner Christopher Gioia said in an interview. “Three thousand people were murdered in cold blood.” Gioia, who wrote and introduced the resolution, says the toll on his department from the events of that day has been devastating. Members Thomas J. Hetzel and Robert Evans died at Ground Zero on 9/11. Others, including commissioners Philip Malloy and Joseph Torregrossa, have become ill from exposure to the toxic air during rescue and recovery operations.
“We’re not leaving our brothers behind,” Gioia said. “We’re not forgetting about them. They deserve justice, and we’re going to see that justice is done.”

 

[Eric Newhill]

Crack in the official BS story. EXPLOSIVES..... not airplanes or tooth fairies.
"
For the first time ever, an elected body in the United States is stating that it is “beyond any doubt” that explosives – not plane impacts and fires alone – destroyed the three World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001.
Commissioners from the Franklin Square and Munson Fire District, located near Queens, New York, unanimously passed a historic resolution on July 24 that calls for a new investigation into all aspects of 9/11 and which cites “overwhelming evidence” that explosives were planted in all three towers prior to 9/11. The resolution states that the district’s Board of Fire Commissioners “fully supports a comprehensive federal grand jury investigation and prosecution of every crime related to the attacks of September 11…”
“It was a mass murder,” Commissioner Christopher Gioia said in an interview. “Three thousand people were murdered in cold blood.” Gioia, who wrote and introduced the resolution, says the toll on his department from the events of that day has been devastating. Members Thomas J. Hetzel and Robert Evans died at Ground Zero on 9/11. Others, including commissioners Philip Malloy and Joseph Torregrossa, have become ill from exposure to the toxic air during rescue and recovery operations.
“We’re not leaving our brothers behind,” Gioia said. “We’re not forgetting about them. They deserve justice, and we’re going to see that justice is done.”

I don't know why you (or some simpleton fire commissioner) have to complicate things just because you can't understand the science. The cause of the collapse is pretty straight forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

But if you feel a need to develop far out "theories" to tell around the camp fire, why not get the ET aliens involved? Or big foot? Or maybe malevolent spirits. Better yet, a big foot possessed by malevolent spirits with DNA altered by aliens running loose in building 7 and using his alien DNA induced super strength to tear out support beams. Come on man, CIA and explosives? Boring. Seen that movie so many times already.

 

[Creativemind]

I don't know why you (or some simpleton fire commissioner) have to complicate things just because you can't understand the science. The cause of the collapse is pretty straight forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

But if you feel a need to develop far out "theories" to tell around the camp fire, why not get the ET aliens involved? Or big foot? Or maybe malevolent spirits. Better yet, a big foot possessed by malevolent spirits with DNA altered by aliens running loose in building 7 and using his alien DNA induced super strength to tear out support beams. Come on man, CIA and explosives? Boring. Seen that movie so many times already.

any theory is better than your nonsense. wow Wikipedia! what a scholar!

 

[Creativemind]

“All three buildings were destroyed by carefully planned, orchestrated and executed controlled demolition.” – Professor Lynn Margulis, Department of Geosciences, University of Massachusetts at Amherst and National Academy of Science member, one of many academics who have been very outspoken regarding 9/11 (source) (source)

JUST another person with a far out theory....... Buildings were imploded.

 

[Creativemind]

In review, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth consists of 2300 certified architects and engineers who claim the World Trade Center Buildings were brought down through controlled explosive demolition. They cite evidence of Thermite found in the debris, which is used in controlled demolitions of buildings. They also cite the speed at which Building 7 fell. AE911Truth does not make claims as to who orchestrated the controlled demolition, but rather just that it happened and that there needs to be a new independent investigation.

JUST another 2300 people with a far out theory....

 

[Grimy1984]

Well, now we've gone off the deep end :).

It might be helpful to divide this into two (related) phenomenon. The first is mundane and understandable to a good degree. The Pentagon, CIA and a host of other entities 'partner' with Hollywood and use film and other mediums to influence the minds of the public. I particularly like the work of Tom Secker has done on this topic, in his book National Security Cinema and on his podcast. He cautions that the reasons why these narratives appear may not be obvious, and that foreshadows of conspiracies may be interjected in a way that is deliberately misleading. I am also convinced that conspiracy theory plays a role in the cover up of State crimes.

This might account for The Lone Gunman episode (although we simply don't know), but then we go off the deep end into with your Back to the Future video.

I must be honest, I really have no idea where to even start with this. In addition to the video you posted I also watched the Back to the Future Secret Symbolism Myths & Archetypes one. It's excellent, totally compelling that the films contain references to Greek mythology and the battle between Zeus and Chronos. And indeed why wouldn't it! As the 9/11 video went on I found it more and more compelling, but utterly mystifying!

It leads me to a contradiction. I would have to believe that such a level of symbolism has been consciously placed, it cannot have arisen solely from some deep aspect of the mind unconsciously creeping through. But I cannot believe such symbolism could have been consciously placed. I can't see how anyone in 1985 could have knowledge of 9/11 (obviously).

What I have trouble with is marrying this seemingly high level of order with the apparent randomness of life. The The Trade Centres themselves, we are led to believe, nearly came crashing down on February 26th 1993, when Ramzi Yousef bombed them*. Had he used a bigger bomb or placed it differently one would could have fallen on the other causing tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. Would we then be seeing 02/26 symbolism in films? Indeed the Citibank building in Manhattan nearly fell down due to a design flaw (people in the Truth movement talk about it as it was covertly retrofitted) in what would have been potentially a bigger disaster than 9/11.

It's worth noting also that the CIA backed coup that overthrew Salvador Allende in Chile happened on September 11th 1973, George H.W. Bush made his New World Order speech on September 11th 1990, and the Berlin Wall came down on 9th November 1989, making that 9/11 in the European style of writing.

So what do you think is going on here? Is there a secret order that has foreknowledge of world events years in advance and symbolises them in films. Is there a collective unconscious working through writers? Are there non-human entities channelling warnings to us (which next to no one picks up on) through writers? Does this only occur in big budget films? If we were to analysis ten years of Skeptiko episodes would we find symbolic codes that Alex was unaware of?

These are the questions I would love to be asking (in a way that doesn't drive me insane or just lead round in circles), but it's very difficult to know where to start.

* I am aware there is a deeper story to the 93 bombing.

Richard,
You were correct to say we've (or at least i've) gone off the deep end. I am struggling daily; treading water in the deep end of the pool but since the scales have fallen from my eyes on my own personal road to Damascus i refuse to go back to the safety of the shallow end.

So let me start by saying i agree with you 100% about The Lone Gunmen.

Your analysis of Back to the Future really excites me. You are 90% there my man. By 90% there i mean to only say you are seeing this the way i did and asking the same questions i was when I first saw the Back to the Future Predicts 9/11 video a few years back. Truthfully havent been the same since. I was shaken to my very core that one of the highest grossing movie franchises of my lifetime (which means EVERYONE has seen it), was a triology of films about TIME TRAVEL which accuretly predicted the single most profound event of my lifetime, Sept. 11th. I needed to look into this myself.

I have since watched the Back to the Future films dozens of times over the past few years, even dissecting the first of the three almost frame by frame. What i have found is astonishing. I have discovered that a pop culture icon (the Back to the F uture movies) tells us how pop culture and media are used to influence the population possibly affecting future events. If you watch close enough you will see the progressive influence of pop culture as promoted through television, radio, music and film over the span of the last 130 years, most especially in the United States, spelled out in the movies. A key to this for me was realizing that nearly everytime Marty time travels he and the Delorean touch film. In the Twin Pines Mall parking lot Marty jumps back in time to 1955 just before the Delorean smashes through 1980's photo devoloping booth. To travel back to 1985 from 1955 Marty drives the DeLorean on a crash corse with a movie theatre (which is playing a film staring Ronald Regan which will be useful knowledge as you read on). In the third film to send Marty to 1885 a 1955 version of Doc chooses a drive-in movie theatre as the perfect spot to jump back in time.

The films show how television was used to put a young handsome man, his beautiful wife and his "fairy tale" life in the white house in the early 60's. It shows how movies and media influenced the young impressionable minds of the baby boomer generation to elect an actor to be the leader of the free world, a thought which was so upsurd it would have been laughable a generation earlier. Just as 1955 Doc Brown literally LOL'ed and asked "Ha! The actor??" when Marty informed him Ronald Regan was the President of the United States in 1985. Back to the future also predicts the coming tragedy of 9/11 and even a crude misogynistic casino owning Donald Trump https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...he-future-writer-biff-is-donald-trump-190408/
Ooops i mean Biff Tannon as being the big man in charge in a dystopian alternate timeline.

There is sooooo much more but for "times's" (ha! See what i did there!) sake i will leave it at that for now. But i did want to answer a few questions you posed because i think they are the right questions to be asking and deserve my best shot trying to answer them (trying being the operative word there). Yes, i believe there a secret order that has foreknowledge of world events years in advance and symbolises them in films. I think there are a variety of ways one might aquire such foreknowledge: contact with entities that exist outside of space and time, some ability to be clairvoyant (i have personally had a handful of quite meaningful experiences that i believe could best be described as synchronistic deja vu that i think are very low level gifts of foreknowledge to significiant events in my own life), and/or being involved in the planning and execution of a 9/11 and this planning and execution taking a lot longer than seems reasonable to someone like you or me but perhaps makes sense on a timeline that stretches beyond a single lifetime. (There was so much occult and astrological symbolism surrounding 9/11 that i believe all three methods are in play here.)

And i also believe yes in ten years we could look back on past skeptiko episodes and find significant patterns. I think the universe speaks in patterns and therefore all reality at all levels is patterened. I think the September 11th Novemember 9th examples you brought up are evidance of this phenomenon.

There are suprisingly many more Sept. 11th (United States) November 9th (Germany) significant events in the 20th century.

Construction of the pentagon began on Sept. 11th. The Benghazi incident occured on Sept. 11th. The 911 telephone prefix became a national emergency dial on Sept. 11th forever making the numbers 911 synonymous with emergency and disaster. And as you mentioned Geroge H.W. Bush's Nwo speech was on Sept. 11th.

The Weimer Republic began in Germany on Nov 9th.
Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch Nov 9th.
The Night of Broken Glass (Nazis breaking the glass of all the store fronts ofJewish owned businesses) Nov 9th
Berlin Wall Fall Nov. 9th.

I had a history professor from Germany that used to thell the class, "If its important in 20th century German history it happened on November 9th."

I have not seen the Back to the Future Myths and Archetypes but am looking forward to checking it out. Thanks for mentioning it.

Lastly, i realize i just dropped a lot of insanity on the forum here and apoligize if its too far out there. Like i said i swim WAY in the deep end and i dont think there are many others swimming on the crazy side of the deep end of the reality pool where im at.

 

[Wormwood]

This is a serious question as I know nothing about the matter. Is it feasible that the WTC could be secretly rigged with tons of explosives without anybody knowing?

 

[Eric Newhill]

This is a serious question as I know nothing about the matter. Is it feasible that the WTC could be secretly rigged with tons of explosives without anybody knowing?

No.

The wiki article I linked to above has lots of good links as to why the fires from the airplanes caused the buildings to collapse.

It would take months (at least six I'm told) and a large number of people to rig three buildings the size of the WTC with explosives. That's if the teams could freely access the buildings. Sneaking around, it would take a lot longer. The odds of getting caught in the process or having a whistle blower emerge would be enormous. Some controlled demo projects even take several years.

People in the buildings would have noticed that there were always teams of men going in and out, ripping out walls to gain access to critical structural aspects of the buildings. There'd be wires and packages of explosives everywhere. The idea that this could happen and no one would notices is, quite frankly, idiotic.

And what would the point be? If you're going to already have big airplanes full of people and jet fuel hit the buildings? Once the airplanes hit the buildings and ignited them, you already have a massive terrorist attack. What possible value add to your nefarious scheme could be derived from setting off explosives? Very high risk to your mission to rig the buildings with little or no benefit.

If the explosives failed to detonate or the explosions didn't cause the desired type of collapse or some were found after the event, the whole plot would have been exposed. Again, huge risk for little added value (once you have airplanes hitting and immolating the buildings). Murphy's law is taught as a key operating principle in the military, etc. Everyone understands it and abides by it.

This all comes down to people that like to project their psychological issues onto the external world and who aren't too honest or bright in their thinking. It goes like this, "Well I don't understand how those buildings could have fallen the way they did. Therefore, the "official story" isn't true...because my little brain and my little life experience are the ultimate authority when it comes to objective reality....and I have special insights that make me special ......I'm no dupe!"

There's also an opportunity for people to gain attention and even money by promoting conspiracy theories. Certain personality types crave that.

It also involves complete ignorance of the mechanics of demolitions and of military operations and associated thinking/planning. It's pretty childish, quite frankly.

 

[Richard Cox]

This is a serious question as I know nothing about the matter. Is it feasible that the WTC could be secretly rigged with tons of explosives without anybody knowing?

Hello Wormwood,

From everything I've read on the history of U.S. Covert ops etc., my answer is 'No, absolutely not.'

But...

There exists a coalition of over 3,000 architects and engineers who have signed a petition expressing unhappiness with the official reports into how the towers came down, with many of them claiming such collapses necessitate some form of controlled demolition.

This is not what one would expect if this were a nonsense claim. Indeed I would contend that it is hard to find a similar sized group of dissenting professionals. To my knowledge there is no group of professional physicists and astronomers supporting the flat earth model, or chemists and aviation experts banging the drum on chemtrails. A comparisons I have heard suggested is to Creationists – and I would contend they dissent for good reason, with 'random mutation' looking like it's going extinct as a theory.

Adam and I have recently interviewed David Chandler, one of the dissenting physicists. We'll be publishing soon and hope to make it a part of a series going back and forth between the two sides. Whilst neither of us would claim the expertise necessary to come down on one side of the line, we both felt David conveyed complete credibility throughout our interaction. He was never evasive or shirking questions etc.

Getting back to your question, the planting of explosives poses two problems. The first is in actually having a team infiltrate the towers to do the physical work. There are engineers (Tony Szamboti has spoken on this) who believe it would be possible if a team gained access to the main elevator shafts. Elevator renovation had been taking place at the Towers preceding the collapses. The most interesting thing to look at is this documentary on the secret retrofitting of Manhattan's Citibank, which took place in 1978.

Due to a design flaw the Citibank building was in serious danger of toppling over in a strong wind. This could has cause a domino effect leaving more casualties than 9/11! To avoid panic the public weren't told and the building was secretly retrofitted at night. This included drawing up secret plans with the Red Cross for evacuation of large parts of the surrounding area.

There are obviously substantial differences between this heroic effort and what would be the evil act of rigging the towers, but it is a comparison worthy of interest.

The second problem is the one of who could possible order such a thing. This might actually be the bigger problem. The CIA (and wider 'Security' Establishment) has doubtless orchestrated much greater events than 9/11, overthrowing countless democratic governments and reshaping the world in the process. Whilst the the structures are all powerful, there seem to be limits on the power of individuals within them. It is very hard to imaging who could have given the order to rig skyscrapers. If it's true it suggests that the Security State has grown like a cancer out of sight, to unimaginable proportions.

David Chandler asserted the 'Physics trumps all'. Meaning that if he can prove with physics that the towers were demolished, it's for the rest of us to come up with how that is done. Saying it is implausible no longer matters.

 

[Eric Newhill]

The second problem is the one of who could possible order such a thing. This might actually be the bigger problem. The CIA (and wider 'Security' Establishment) has doubtless orchestrated much greater events than 9/11, overthrowing countless democratic governments and reshaping the world in the process. Whilst the the structures are all powerful, there seem to be limits on the power of individuals within them. It is very hard to imaging who could have given the order to rig skyscrapers. If it's true it suggests that the Security State has grown like a cancer out of sight, to unimaginable proportions.

Richard,
The idea that there are large numbers of people working for the government that would deliberately inflict a massive lethal terrorist attack on their own country is, to me, one of the more disturbing aspects of the conspiracy theorist mindset. It's just about right there on schizoid/schizotypal spectrum of personality disorders.

You can always find a sociopath here or there that might do it, but hundreds of them (and hundreds would be necessary to rig the buildings to explode)? No way.

There's also the problem of the post 911 detailed inspections. The conspiracy would have to not only involve keeping silent all of those people that were in on the plot, but also all those who investigated the aftermath. The wreckage was carefully examined.

Whatever the long term end results of their operations, the vast majority of people in these agencies and in the military are very patriotic and they do what they do out of loyalty and love for the country. They have a true sense of duty and honor. They are not going to kill massive numbers of Americans on American soil. Period. Full stop.

 

[Eric Newhill]

There exists a coalition of over 3,000 architects and engineers who have signed a petition expressing unhappiness with the official reports into how the towers came down, with many of them claiming such collapses necessitate some form of controlled demolition.

This is not what one would expect if this were a nonsense claim..

How many architects and engineers are there in the country. What % is 3,000? Small.

What is the experience and area of expertise of these architects and engineers? Mostly not relevant to the 911 situation.

.

The second problem is the one of who could possible order such a thing. This might actually be the bigger problem. The CIA (and wider 'Security' Establishment) has doubtless orchestrated much greater events than 9/11, overthrowing countless democratic governments and reshaping the world in the process.

Ah. You denizens of what was once a great empire always like to forget your own activities in world domination and always overlook MI5 and MI6. I find that amusing. Always pointing a finger at the evil Americans and the CIA!

It is important to keep in mind that the CIA (or MI6 or whomever) isn't just running around overthrowing governments for fun. It is the civilian government that sets foreign policy and declares war. In the US that is the President and Congress.

If some people vote in a government that is hostile to US interests, the civilian govt decides that something must be done about it and the CIA and/or the military then attempts to fulfill the civilian government's direction. This is all ideology driven, though specific situations will also involve profit seeking vultures.

Stupid civilians living in La La Land demand to eat sausage, but they never want to know it's made.

 

[Adam Fitzgerald]

Richard,
The idea that there are large numbers of people working for the government that would deliberately inflict a massive lethal terrorist attack on their own country is, to me, one of the more disturbing aspects of the conspiracy theorist mindset. It's just about right there on schizoid/schizotypal spectrum of personality disorders.

You can always find a sociopath here or there that might do it, but hundreds of them (and hundreds would be necessary to rig the buildings to explode)? No way.

There's also the problem of the post 911 detailed inspections. The conspiracy would have to not only involve keeping silent all of those people that were in on the plot, but also all those who investigated the aftermath. The wreckage was carefully examined.

Whatever the long term end results of their operations, the vast majority of people in these agencies and in the military are very patriotic and they do what they do out of loyalty and love for the country. They have a true sense of duty and honor. They are not going to kill massive numbers of Americans on American soil. Period. Full stop.

I highlighted an area i find to be quite believable due in part that the American government has done far worse to people abroad, as opposed to what is happening here in the states with numerous instances where the mass populace of the country are either in prison, poverty or sickly. Im not the least bit shocked that you can have a decent amount of people within our own government (which is quite expansive and multi-faceted)that could seemingly pull off an operation like 9/11. Look at how many CIA operatives that were working inside Alec Station that knew of two Al Qaeda operatives living inside the United States and allowed them to live openly without telling anyone. Thats just a small example.

 

[Laird]

Alex,
If you had told me, 20 years ago, that there is a deep state in the US that control everything and everyone, I would have told you, in response, that you have been watching too many Hollywood spy movies and were greatly exaggerating the reality. Now? Even I have to admit that a true deep state has developed in the US. It controls just about everyone/everything in DC and is extending its tentacles into state level govt. It most definitely controls all foreign policy. The Euros and English speaking nations are all on board. Anyone resisting is a 'racist", a "hater", etc. propaganda is produced and disseminated 24/7/365.

It goes deeper than government. Meanwhile, social media is programming an entire generation or two. Future generations will be programmed totally from day 1 - and that same programming is being applied to children in the public school system and get laid on even thicker in the universities. The Borg speaks as one.

Social media is also gathering huge amounts of information that is increasingly used to identify and silence opposition to the Borg. They know who you are, what you think, where you are and who you associated with at all times.

Even I can know all of your healthcare claims, ever, if paid for via any insurance company (that's your diagnoses, procedures you had performed on you, drugs you take/have taken). I can know the magazines you subscribe to (on line and hard copy) and can derive an expanded profile from that. I can know what you purchase with your credit card (who uses cash anymore?). I can know your habits. I can build a very accurate profile of who you are. We purchase all of that info from various information vendors. It's all made possible because of social media and digital tech. If don't you think the government is purchasing from the same vendors, you're delusional.

It should be obvious now that the deep state will decide whether or not who you elect to represent you is acceptable. So the Constitutional Republic is just about dead.

Your means of fighting back (the 2nd Amendment) is about to be repealed.

If you resist, you are unpersonned, lose your job, become a social pariah, etc.

I suggest everyone read the Gulag Archipelago. That's just about where we are headed.

Unfortunately, too many people are perfectly ok with this arrangement. As long as they get free stuff in some cases and out of fear, laziness, dullness in others. Some useful idiots think this is all good and will make for more just secure world.

The deep state and their global corporate friends are behind this - and "no" they aren't doing it for social justice or to save the planet form warming or any of that.

The globohomo socialist Borg eschews spirituality (except to the extent that they enjoy the feeling of aligning with dark forces). They won't hunt down the new agers at first because new agers are, well, goofy and flexible. First it's Christianity, then they'll get on the Muslims and others once they've served their purpose in replacing Christianity. They also use sexual perversions, drugs, media and other tools to normalize the unnatural and twisted in their effort to crush out higher level spirituality. But make no doubt, in the end there will be one belief and that will be whatever the Borg says it will be. That will change from time to time. Your job will be to stay tuned in and seamlessly repeat the new message. Forcing you to accept and repeat contradictory messages is an old brainwashing tool. It works. It's what they're doing (e.g. Conservative Christians bad, but Muslims good. Racism bad, but assigning to whites, categorically, bad names and attitudes is correct and should be done publicly without repercussions. Science rules! but a man in a dress really is woman and can have a menstrual cycle and maybe even babies - anyone who says otherwise is hater bigot that should be banished and die).

This is a satanic power grab. It pains me to watch it happen and it pains me that some people on a forum like this are some of the useful idiots that enable the satanic Borg. Smarts and courage have always been in short supply, which was they're counting on.

All of that said, I still do not, nor will I ever, believe that 911 was a conspiracy ;-)

Eric, the weird thing is that a lot of that to which you object is that to which the left also objects! We just see it through different lenses according to our predilections. For example, you worry about an expanded power based in a handshake between the State and the Corporation; a power which sees all and decides all; which has the omnipotence to deprive you (anybody) of a job and social identity; which picks on first one identity (Christians), then another (Muslims) with the eventual aim of repressing all - all of these are very much concerns of the modern left! None of us - left or right - wants to see our freedom taken from us in these ways. Those whom you accuse of being "perfectly ok with this arrangement" are not those on this forum whom you think are "useful idiots": we are not useful idiots; we see the same global power plays and seek to resist them to the same extent that you do. We would do best to join forces against a common enemy rather than to continue arguing amongst ourselves!