Rick DeLano’s Terrific Quantum Science Film Tainted by Catholic Nonsense |454|

#61
And yet, because of reincarnation, many humans are born somewhat 'messed-up' by their previous experiences. Not to say that they have sinned, but it does mean that contrary to conventional science, we are not born as a 'blank slate', but bring our past with us into this world. This is a completely different message to the (in my opinion) rather unhelpful Christian teachings which don't shed any light on either the cause or the solution to such issues.
I consider reincarnation to be almost a fact. Unfortunately, it's a certainty that no Christian denomination of any significance subscribes to the concept. That said, there is a Christian solution to the problem: Embark on the path of deification. The method is simple enough (if hard to execute), through the practice of prayer, contemplation, right action and right motivation, break the power of impulse and dethrone the ego as the centre from which you act. Ideally, the point is to transform ones impulses, not repress them, and this process is thought to continue into the afterlife.

So what moral was the Genesis story meant to convey?
Ain't nothing perfect in this world and pride comes before a fall. :)
 
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#62
I consider reincarnation to be almost a fact. Unfortunately, it's a certainty that no Christian denomination of any significance subscribes to the concept. That said, there is a Christian solution to the problem: Embark on the path of deification. The method is simple enough (if hard to execute), through the practice of prayer, contemplation, right action and right motivation, break the power of impulse and dethrone the ego as the centre from which you act. Ideally, the point is to transform ones impulses, not repress them, and this process is thought to continue into the afterlife.
Well, I'm not looking to ignore what you say, your point is taken, and I realise it is sincerely intended.

However, think of it this way. What if someone has been to war, seen and experienced terrible things, then comes home, returns to civilian life. In such a situation, not everyone is the same, but many experience PTSD (Post-traumatic stress disorder). Dealing with the after-effects of trauma is not always easy. There are many types of therapy in order to heal the damage and restore a state of well-being - as best one can. There may be physical as well as psychological matters to deal with in that example.

In the case of reincarnation, there is sometimes a similar type of PTSD which needs to be dealt with.

Whether or not your proposed path is suitable in either of these PTSD scenarios is something I'll leave open.
 
#63
I consider reincarnation to be almost a fact. Unfortunately, it's a certainty that no Christian denomination of any significance subscribes to the concept. That said, there is a Christian solution to the problem: Embark on the path of deification. The method is simple enough (if hard to execute), through the practice of prayer, contemplation, right action and right motivation, break the power of impulse and dethrone the ego as the centre from which you act. Ideally, the point is to transform ones impulses, not repress them, and this process is thought to continue into the afterlife.
I don't know - extreme purity seems to corrupt all too easily. Think of those Catholic priests. I am sure they felt they were embarking on a project rather as you describe, and then a huge wave of earthly frustration overwhelmed them.
Ain't nothing perfect in this world and pride comes before a fall. :)
Well my point is that, IMHO, these allegories only make sense if the morality underlying them stays the same. Introducing a god that was so vicious that he would tempt people and then punish them mercilessly if they took the bait, completely hides the moral that you claim is behind this, and leaves me with a picture that resembles a child who catches small animals in a trap, baited with food, and then tortures the poor creatures.

David
 
#64
Not giving nonsense a pass is what truth is all about. Our present world needs lots of that.
Agreed, and of course, Alex applies that not just to religious ideas, but also to materialism.

There is a hell of a lot of nonsense and confusion built into the current world view - on both sides.

That isn't helped by the fact that it seems to be impossible to find a totally consistent set of ideas.

David
 
#65
I listened to Rick's interview on Reason and Theology and a few impressions. He describes the collapse of wave function as being caused by interaction with measuring device, where as it is not just the device, but the observation of the information by a conscious being that is key. His view seems to be that the form, or structure of an object causes the potential outcome of quantum interaction to manifest. He seems to be dualist. Also, he has an us vs them attitude. Anybody who identifies with a group or a team loses the ability to seek truth no matter where it takes them. At first I thought Alex was a bit tough on him, now I understand why. I don't think he is open to a simulation theory of reality because it is not in his scripture. Wolfgang Smith seems to be a very deep thinker and I would be interested in reading some of his books, but he may not be able to progress beyond late twentieth century ideas. Of course unless I read him I will not know. I watched the movie, it had some interesting ideas, never heard of the earth centric cosmology evidence, nor the disproof of evolution by random mutations, but to stop at Descartes without going further into later philosophers that criticized and improved upon Descartes, such as Kant, seemed to me a flaw. Still, an interesting subject. Thanks for bringing it to us.
 

Alex

Administrator
#66
And yet, because of reincarnation, many humans are born somewhat 'messed-up' by their previous experiences. Not to say that they have sinned, but it does mean that contrary to conventional science, we are not born as a 'blank slate', but bring our past with us into this world. This is a completely different message to the (in my opinion) rather unhelpful Christian teachings which don't shed any light on either the cause or the solution to such issues.
great point. thx for reminding us that the evidence definitely doesn't seem to suggest " blank slate"
 
#67
I don't know - extreme purity seems to corrupt all too easily. Think of those Catholic priests. I am sure they felt they were embarking on a project rather as you describe, and then a huge wave of earthly frustration overwhelmed them.

Well my point is that, IMHO, these allegories only make sense if the morality underlying them stays the same. Introducing a god that was so vicious that he would tempt people and then punish them mercilessly if they took the bait, completely hides the moral that you claim is behind this, and leaves me with a picture that resembles a child who catches small animals in a trap, baited with food, and then tortures the poor creatures.

David
Ive heard so many apologetic explanations for the viciousness of the OT and none of them come close to making sense. My old pastor (a great guy) would tell the congregation, “it’s to show us how we can’t do things on our own and how we need Jesus.” As if that makes any sense at all. When I was a Christian apologetic and would debate online I would pretty much always devalue the OT and would only refer to the NT. I took on a very liberal form of Christianity because it was the only form I could I could defend. Biblical literalism is utter insanity. The brand that folk like Rupert Sheldrake likely take on is the more very liberal form. One could mount a sensible and intelligent defense of that. Fundamentalism is wildly indefensible and requires some serious head burying in the sand.
 
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#68
I listened to Rick's interview on Reason and Theology and a few impressions. He describes the collapse of wave function as being caused by interaction with measuring device, where as it is not just the device, but the observation of the information by a conscious being that is key.
The problem is interesting. You can say that the screen at the back of the double slit apparatus 'measures' the photons (or electrons) passing through or you can realise that the screen itself is a quantum system, and assume the measurement happens further back. It is my understanding that this delayed calculation will produce the same results - or probably the same distribution of results. Ultimately you can in principle delay the measurement right back past the photo-receptors in the eye to somewhere inside the brain!
His view seems to be that the form, or structure of an object causes the potential outcome of quantum interaction to manifest. He seems to be dualist. Also, he has an us vs them attitude. Anybody who identifies with a group or a team loses the ability to seek truth no matter where it takes them. At first I thought Alex was a bit tough on him, now I understand why. I don't think he is open to a simulation theory of reality because it is not in his scripture. Wolfgang Smith seems to be a very deep thinker and I would be interested in reading some of his books, but he may not be able to progress beyond late twentieth century ideas. Of course unless I read him I will not know. I watched the movie, it had some interesting ideas, never heard of the earth centric cosmology evidence, nor the disproof of evolution by random mutations, but to stop at Descartes without going further into later philosophers that criticized and improved upon Descartes, such as Kant, seemed to me a flaw. Still, an interesting subject. Thanks for bringing it to us.
I now consider it absolutely certain that life did not evolve by NS.!

Interestingly, there was a conference of physicists, mathematicians, and biologists held in the 1960's - the Wistar Conference. In view of the recently discovered basis for genetics, Darwin's ideas were given a serious drubbing - but the conference's conclusion has gradually been ignored. The crucial point is that if you need 300 mutations (say) to happen in the right place to create a novel protein, natural selection can't play any part until the process is almost complete - because partial proteins contribute nothing useful! This leaves only unguided search with an appalling combinatorical explosion.

Here is a thread I started on this, and you would probably find Behe's book of interest:

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/behes-argument-in-darwin-devolved.4317/

I did get Wolfgang Smith's book on Vertical Causation. Although I agree that he is a deep thinker, he writes in a horribly obscure style, which makes him hard to understand. It would be great if you could find someone who has 'decoded ' him! He thinks Special Relativity - and therefore General Relativity - is flawed. I guess he would say that solves the famous incompatibility between QM and GR.

David
 
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#69
Well, I'm not looking to ignore what you say, your point is taken, and I realise it is sincerely intended.

However, think of it this way. What if someone has been to war, seen and experienced terrible things, then comes home, returns to civilian life. In such a situation, not everyone is the same, but many experience PTSD (Post-traumatic stress disorder). Dealing with the after-effects of trauma is not always easy. There are many types of therapy in order to heal the damage and restore a state of well-being - as best one can. There may be physical as well as psychological matters to deal with in that example.

In the case of reincarnation, there is sometimes a similar type of PTSD which needs to be dealt with.

Whether or not your proposed path is suitable in either of these PTSD scenarios is something I'll leave open.
Well my point is that, IMHO, these allegories only make sense if the morality underlying them stays the same. Introducing a god that was so vicious that he would tempt people and then punish them mercilessly if they took the bait, completely hides the moral that you claim is behind this, and leaves me with a picture that resembles a child who catches small animals in a trap, baited with food, and then tortures the poor creatures.
Okay, lets try reframe things:

All that exists is the Void. Formless, it contains the unrealized potential of creation, undifferentiated, implicate. Then something stirs. An all pervading consciousness starts to bring form to, or from, the primal chaos. Out of the Void emerges being, difference, existence. Eventually, there emerges individual consciousness and awareness. This consciousness is not as we now it today: It is pure, direct and integrated with the world around. There is no thought of evil. There is no thought of shame. There is no death. Perhaps this form of existence was entirely in the extended consciousness realm.

But then something happens, a threshold is breached, a terrible process is set in to motion in which awareness becomes self conscious and unsure. Fear enters the picture. Shame enters the picture. This shift of awareness begins to reshape the very firmament of the extended consciousness realm. An unstoppable process of entropy is taking place. Suddenly the once free beings find themselves pulled into an alien form of existence. A shell of matter takes shape about them. They find themselves in a world, a dimension, that is by its nature entropic. Death is baked into the cake at every level. It's hard to remember that it ever was any other way.

The world has fallen. The Void weeps.

That, I reckon, is Genesis and the Fall rejigged in a lingo bearable to modern 'spiritual but not religious' sensibilities. Certainly no worse than any of the other creation stories floating about the place. Maybe better than some. That said, I hope everyone will ignore my creative writing limitations.

Also, why do so many of us carry the feeling that things shouldn't be this way? That things weren't always this way? We all remember paradise somewhere in our beings. Perhaps as a faint intimation of birdsong and love made among wild flowers.

And so we are creatures composed both of bone and blood but also of geometry and light. The spiritual methodologies of the world all seek to increase this light and integrate the individual within the sacred geometry of existence. This is the journey towards enlightenment. The Christian path is not so different to the others and it may even carry an advantage - it encourages the seeker to expect failure, to expect to be unable to do it yourself without some divine intervention. Strangely, many believe this intervention happens more often than one might think.

So there!

P.S. Biblical literalness is a relatively new phenomena. Up until the recent past the allegories which could be teased from the text were far more important than the direct meaning of any OT story. That said, the Bible was also considered to be literally true, it just wasn't the main point.
P.P.S.I can't remember the exact word but the general rule applied to interpreting texts was to take the 'compassionate' meaning as the correct one. This goes way back.
P.P.P.S. David, reading a text allegorically is not a simple process. It involves taking meaning from outside a work and bringing it into conversation with said work. Traditionally there have been three or four separate levels of interpretation.
 
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Alex

Administrator
#70
Not to beat a dead horse, but as Rick said we need to use the Bible to get our ideas about Christianity, this is straight from St. Paul in Romans 5: https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/5.htm

Pretty much lays out what Smoley said in more flowery language. This is the cornerstone of a lot of atonement theology and is definitely accepted by the majority of Protestant Christians. Other variants would be in the minority and would likely be seen as “apostate” for their views.
not sure I understand... But would like to know more. I mean, to me it seemed obvious that rick was dodging what every christian I've ever known accepts as a matter of fact/dogma/doctrine. rick can dance around all he wants there's no getting away from the adam and eve story
 

Alex

Administrator
#71

The apostate minority: for me, Christ is the object of devotion, and I reject any exclusivism. In this video and others, Jurgen finds that his experience of this devotion in the monks of Athos adds Love to his experience of Reality. He also sees a hierarchy in extended consciousness, with Source at the pinnacle.
just finished an amazing interview with jurgen. I think I have you to thank for nudging me, right LV? who else nudged me?
 

Alex

Administrator
#72
Okay, lets try reframe things:

All that exists is the Void. Formless, it contains the unrealized potential of creation, undifferentiated, implicate. Then something stirs. An all pervading consciousness starts to bring form to, or from, the primal chaos. Out of the Void emerges being, difference, existence. Eventually, there emerges individual consciousness and awareness. This consciousness is not as we now it today: It is pure, direct and integrated with the world around. There is no thought of evil. There is no thought of shame. There is no death. Perhaps this form of existence was entirely in the extended consciousness realm.

But then something happens, a threshold is breached, a terrible process is set in to motion in which awareness becomes self conscious and unsure. Fear enters the picture. Shame enters the picture. This shift of awareness begins to reshape the very firmament of the extended consciousness realm. An unstoppable process of entropy is taking place. Suddenly the once free beings find themselves pulled into an alien form of existence. A shell of matter takes shape about them. They find themselves in a world, a dimension, that is by its nature entropic. Death is baked into the cake at every level. It's hard to remember that it ever was any other way.

The world has fallen. The Void weeps.

That, I reckon, is Genesis and the Fall rejigged in a lingo bearable to modern 'spiritual but not religious' sensibilities. Certainly no worse than any of the other creation stories floating about the place. Maybe better than some. That said, I hope everyone will ignore my creative writing limitations.

Also, why do so many of us carry the feeling that things shouldn't be this way? That things weren't always this way? We all remember paradise somewhere in our beings. Perhaps as a faint intimation of birdsong and love made among wild flowers.

And so we are creatures composed both of bone and blood but also of geometry and light. The spiritual methodologies of the world all seek to increase this light and integrate the individual within the sacred geometry of existence. This is the journey towards enlightenment. The Christian path is not so different to the others and it may even carry an advantage - it encourages the seeker to expect failure, to expect to be unable to do it yourself without some divine intervention. Strangely, many believe this intervention happens more often than one might think.

So there!

P.S. Biblical literalness is a relatively new phenomena. Up until the recent past the allegories which could be teased from the text were far more important than the direct meaning of any OT story. That said, the Bible was also considered to be literally true, it just wasn't the main point.
P.P.S.I can't remember the exact word but the general rule applied to interpreting texts was to take the 'compassionate' meaning as the correct one. This goes way back.
P.P.P.S. David, reading a text allegorically is not a simple process. It involves taking meaning from outside a work and bringing it into conversation with said work. Traditionally there have been three or four separate levels of interpretation.
I'm not sure about the void thing. how old is the adam and eve/steve story?
 

Alex

Administrator
#73
In the case of reincarnation, there is sometimes a similar type of PTSD which needs to be dealt with.
thanks... I thought you were going in one direction and then this last line threw me off :) can you tell me more what you mean?
 
#74
thanks... I thought you were going in one direction and then this last line threw me off :) can you tell me more what you mean?
Well, it sometimes turns up in a TV series called The Ghost Inside My Child. There may be nightmares, phobias and so on. The approach taken in that (true life) show is usually to try to get the child to put this behind him/her, just move on. But that isn't always realistic.

I'm not only talking of childhood memories. Sometimes the full weight of past-life events don't turn up until well into adulthood. Sometimes it cannot be ignored, it needs to be dealt with. I'm only talking in generalities here, but ordinary life may need to be put on hold until the past is dealt with, even though that past was before one was even born. For example mental, emotional pain and distress, as well as possible physical ailments - mind and body are interlinked. These can linger until resolved.

I don't know whether this makes any kind of sense or clarifies at all.
 
#75
not sure I understand... But would like to know more. I mean, to me it seemed obvious that rick was dodging what every christian I've ever known accepts as a matter of fact/dogma/doctrine. rick can dance around all he wants there's no getting away from the adam and eve story
Just saying, if we're looking at the source material of Christianity vs what Smoley said, it's all there in Romans 5. Nearly word for word. Smoley just minces his words less. Rick is obfuscating.
 
#76
just finished an amazing interview with jurgen. I think I have you to thank for nudging me, right LV? who else nudged me?
I’m a huge Jurgen fan. I interact with him frequently on Facebook. I consider him an authority on afterlife studies. Do ask him about Earth like afterlife states. It’s something that needs to be talked about because there’s a ton of data on it. Many NDEs report experiences of solid states and a lot of channeled information and OBErs report the same. The cultural bias and tendency is to think of us as only misty clouds or something after we die.

Oh never mind. You already did the interview lol

I talk about it a lot. I’m gonna make a thread on it and present some good data.
 
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Alex

Administrator
#77
I’m a huge Jurgen fan. I interact with him frequently on Facebook. I consider him an authority on afterlife studies. Do ask him about Earth like afterlife states. It’s something that needs to be talked about because there’s a ton of data on it. Many NDEs report experiences of solid states and a lot of channeled information and OBErs report the same. The cultural bias and tendency is to think of us as only misty clouds or something after we die.

Oh never mind. You already did the interview lol

I talk about it a lot. I’m gonna make a thread on it and present some good data.
thx WW... I'm sure you nudged me there.
 
#78
yes it was quite an exchange :)

I actually have a lot of respect for what Rick has accomplished and all my comments about is excellent film were sincere.

I hope we have a good conversation in this thread about "respecting religious beliefs." because I don't see why we should... I mean, this is one area I think the atheist got right... they're just ideas in the court of public opinion... kind of like political beliefs.
Right on, Alex. I don't want to make you sick of C. Hitchens, but he did make a strong case against the "special " status of one's religious beliefs. Why shouldn't people be held to the same standards of honesty, integrity, and the other virtuous habits in regard to their spiritual ideas? Why do they get a pass when they utter nonsense or promote hatred disguised as "my personal beliefs"? This is another area where shining a strong light on depravity or stupidity makes it run for cover or bare it's fangs.
 
#79
I'm not sure about the void thing. how old is the adam and eve/steve story?
I think the story goes back to the 5th or 6th century BC. But I'm not sure. As for the Void: Pick a name, God, Mind at Large, Tao, whatever. It's a signification for what lies beyond our ability to perceive. The whole, I suppose.
 
#80
I don't think there is a moral imperative to respect religious beliefs other than basic manners in polite company. If the other party is agreeable to a thorough dissection, analysis, and critique of their beliefs or if the other party is opening themselves up to such attack by proselytizing, then I see no reason to feign respect.

The main question for me is: what is the best way to guide and structure society? Does the "Noble Lie" work? What is the psychology of the Guardians?

The majority of people are either not interested in or not capable of pursuing the esoteric truths behind religious myths. Chicken/Egg: Is this because they are not developed enough or are they not developed enough because religion has held them back?

The exoteric dogmas serve as carriers for the estoeric truths. Religion can be a cocoon of protection leading to metamorphosis, but once the cocoon is shed, what then? Does the "enlightened" individual return to their religion as a reformer tweaking the old myths to be relevant to the new generations or does this person leave their religion altogether and try to affect meaningful change as a maverick outside of any structure of authority?

Most people need a structure of authority. Most people are not equipped to face life without it. If they don't have religion they will replace it with something else... something new which has not survived the test of time and which doesn't have its sharp edges rounded off yet.

So what do we do? Do we keep hammering people with the data until they get it? Are they ever going to get it? Or do we cloak truth in myth and create Plato's Noble Lie and build a structure of authority around the esoteric truths so that it becomes a self-replicating organism circulating among humanity providing humanity with order and subconsciously guiding humanity so that the few lucky souls who are willing can make these truths conscious and rise above it?

And those few lucky souls who are willing to rise above it, we can induct them into separate secret societies and teach them that they are above the exoteric myths and provide them with the keys to decoding the symbolism and they will become the ones who run things and guard the Noble Lie. But then these Guardians may come to despise the sheeple and instead of perpetuating the Noble Lie for the better development of humanity, they may turn instead to the pursuit of power and pleasure and justify this since they are after all above the myths and above good and evil.

The Soviet Union abandoned religion and Communism took over and destroyed the country. So they reacted to that and rediscovered religion. The same thing will happen here.

What's the solution? Is it time for a new religion?
My, my! U did raise some areas of a complicated nature. I have a sister -in-law who says she wants answers to the 4 Big Questions, but since it involves some things that she thinks are boring or scary, then never mind. Sit quietly for 10 minutes w/ Ur eyes closed while watching Ur breath? Why? So, is that a lack of development or do I need to offer more choices? We certainly don't need a new religion if U mean a esoteric form: the hideous religious leaches that bar clear and critical thinking today don't deserve another second of existence. What we do need is a simple set of moral guides like George Carlin's Two Commandments and the Golden Rule plus stern laws punishing deviation from them. No, I don't want a theocratic police state, but a return to common law tenets that remove many of the legal abuses we suffer from today. I guess I'm talking Libertarianism. I do firmly believe what many new spiritual leaders, like Eben Alexander, M. D. promotes: we are already well into the shedding of civilization's old skin, as is evident in the USA's and other countries' turmoil, and being prepared for its new and better form.
 
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