Robert Forte, The Softer Side of CIA Psychedelic Mind Control |407|

#21
I wonder that about a lot of conspiratorial theory. However, it is clear that a fairly extensive conspiracy tried to topple President Trump, so conspiracies really do happen.
David
David,
Again with the conspiracy stuff. What is this fascination with "conspiracies"?

You know what is a conspiracy? Every human interaction involving two or more people. Two guys decide to make a run to the store for a six pack of beer before the football game starts. They conspired to get beer. Have more than five or six guys at the party and conspiracies really proliferate. Bob and Joe like lite beer, but the others like IPA. Secret discussions ensue regarding what type of beer to buy and how much...should we have sausage or pepperoni on the pizza...someone will be left out of that discussion...CONSPIRACY!!!....The people putting on the football game conspired with the concessions vendors at the stadium and the tv network. The tv network conspired with the companies that make televisions. Everything. Sending money to Mother Teresa's orphan program is a conspiracy. Sending your children to school is participating in a conspiracy to educate the young.

You want a democracy? Well that means you have a govt run by people; not AI robots. People put their heads together and come up with all kinds of plans. That's conspiring. Some of the plans they act out on. Sometimes some of those actions are against the law of the land. That then becomes a criminal conspiracy. Sometimes the plans violate someone else's code of ethics. Sometimes people get trapped into group think and don't even realize they are conspiring to create a shared view of reality that might not even have any objective truth. Even if we had AI robots running things, it would be a conspiracy because someone had to program the robots and they had an agenda of some kind. This podcast/blog is a conspiracy in which we are participating. We are against materialistic science. We are conspirators.

The word really has no meaning outside a court of law where a specific illegal action is being looked at. The court and all of its judges and lawyers are involved in a conspiracy known as the "legal system". Then they all have their own sub-agendas and social cliques. Those are also conspiracies.

So the govt funded Wasson? So what? Why wouldn't it?

The first time I ingested a psychedelic - it was LSD.... 200 micrograms - a healthy enough dose to get a full psychedelic spectrum experience, but not an insane dose level. It was in liquid form (a diluted solution) that came in brown glass vials. I won't speak to the source...this was a long time ago...The dosage could be measured accurately from a pipet (sp?) type dispenser. I had read about it and was told about it by the people that obtained it for me. But nothing prepared me for the actual experience. There I was a couple hours later....wide awake and feeling more intensely intellectually and psychically aware than ever before...my thoughts, my awareness, my very essence expanding up and up through levels of consciousness ...All was Mind..... WOW! THIS IS IT! ....was a thought that crossed my mind.....but who was the mind that just had the thought?......that question led to an unfolding of new layers of reality and realization....and there was a certain funny aspect to the question....it was ridiculous and it made me laugh....a deep belly laugh....because in the midst of all of this direct connection with all of this MIND, it was a indeed a silly question and it was an amusing artifact of an outmoded thought habit that I once had......when was it that I used to think in such a narrow silly and misguided way?........Holly Cow!....It was just a minute ago!.....I just experienced universes of consciousness and went on incredible mental and spiritual journeys and, by outmoded thinking land measures, it all happened in a like a minute....There is no time. It's another silly construct...this makes me laugh even harder. The puny idea that is my day to day ego is kind of a sad limited little thing....yet I start to feel a sense of compassion and love for that sad fragile little thing....this propels me through a river of archetypical concepts....and I am off on another journey through layers of Mind.....on and on and on....except there is no on and on and on because it's all happening now and there is not time....when you get to the bottom you get back to the top.......now I'm talking to a spiritual force that seems to exist independent of me and is wise and kind......yet it isn't independent of me because All is One....WOW! This isn't a dream or hallucination....it is real! Realer than what the outmoded used to experience day to day....on and on and on....but not on and on...NOW. HERE......EVERYWHERE...

None of that which occurred was (or is) intellectual musings. Rather a direct experience of these things. Let that soak in - Direct Experience. That is what psychedelics do for me.

Back to the CIA and "conspiracies" for a moment....

....The CIA (using CIA as a generic term for many govt agencies since that is what all the conspiracy nuts like to do) had discovered LSD in the 1950s. They apparently thought it might be good for interrogating people and getting the truth out of them. They were looking for substances that would do that for them. That research, despite offending the more sanctimonious delicate flowers amongst us, is a legitimate thing for a national security agency to do in a world where nuclear armed enemies could destroy humanity any day. However, the reports of the drug's effects were different and rather interesting. Since it was deemed physically harmless, CIA guys decided to try it themselves. They experienced amazing states of mind like I did.

Breaking news...CIA guys are people too. Usually pretty smart people at that. They were as impressed with the state of mind induced by LSD as I was. Being people with interests and dreams and concerns and everything else that everyone feels and thinks, they naturally thought that maybe these substances could bring about some good in society. Like, what if everyone had a taste of the True Nature of Awareness? Maybe it could make for a better world? Hippies certainly thought (and said) that same thing after using the drug. CIA guys aren't allowed to? Hippies hold a copywrite on those thoughts?

So you get a Wasson funded to explore a related drug that is found in certain mushroom species. You get the cover of LIFE magazine. ....Hey, let's legitimize this stuff a little and see what happens if more people, a wider swath of society starts using it. It just might make a positive difference in the world, what with nuclear weapons proliferating and the horror of WW2 recently behind us it's worth a shot.

Why a banker? Because CIA guys were almost exclusively recruited from the Ivy League. They needed to have what used to be referred to as "Background". A banker was someone they could trust and relate to because he too had background. That's old school WASP ...I realize that the prols and hippies hate it. Tough. Besides, the banker already had a great interest in mushrooms. Why this needs to be twisted into some kind of fuel for paranoid fantasies escapes me entirely.

I think I mentioned that in a democracy you get a govt of people....so ...some people are bad guys. Straight up sociopaths. Others become misguided and cold hearted for various reasons; sometimes because they are distracted and not paying attention....people like that (and sociopaths )are everywhere - even in guru-land and hippy communes ....anyhow, yes, when you're dealing with people, some of them are going to get out of hand and do bad things, like some of the more infamous examples of MK Ultra activities.....I refer back to my example and question in a previous comment (up thread) about airline crashes. When a plane crashes it needs to be investigated and we need to do all we can to ensure that the issue is remedied......but we still fly and we still know that some day another plane is going to crash........why do we apply a totally different standard to the CIA?

I think all of this conspiracy theory stuff is, on the one hand, a pathetic admission - almost a desperate cry - that says "I am weak and powerless and people are messing with me". . ...on the other hand, it is an attempt to cover up that weakness by appearing to be "in the know" , and thus somewhat in control, regarding big forces in society and life in general.

It seems to me that when most people use the word "conspiracy" it is emotionally loaded and has sinister connotations + a specific meaning beyond the face value. What they are really saying is "People with more *power* than I are making decisions that might impact me in a negative way and I am not even aware of what those decisions are or who is making them and that scares me".

But, because of that strong subjective element as to what is a "conspiracy" then we get into all kinds of disagreements based on personal values, intelligence and levels of understanding. So I don't like the term outside of legal definitions. Sam hired Big Pete to murder his business partner. Here's the evidence. Ok. That is a criminal conspiracy to commit murder. No problem. The CIA helped Wasson go study mushrooms? Not a conspiracy. Just people being people. The fact that some of the players are associated with the government is immaterial.

Like I said, if you don't want to be mind controlled, then don't be. It's that simple. No one is forcing you to believe facebook memes, or the "news" or to put LSD on your tongue. No one can rob you of your honor or integrity or your essential soul....unless you let them.
 
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#22
I don't know whether psychedelics open a window on higher consciousness. They do something, for sure, in the sense of changing one's mental state, but whether that's opening the mind to reality, I can't say. They might, I suppose, but if they do, it's not necessarily a permanent thing, nor always beneficial or useful. Timothy Leary did plenty of LSD but did it make him a better person? I watched a couple of YouTube videos on him and my impression is that before he took LSD he was an unconventional character, and afterwards, he was still an unconventional character, with plenty of human foibles. The only difference seems to be that before he hadn't done drugs, and afterwards he had. He doesn't seem to have fundamentally changed.

Okay, so you take a psychedelic and your mental state changes, as measured by changes in brain state correlations as well as "subjective experiences". They're both subjective experiences, of course, as is everything. There's no such thing as an objective experience. If one is to believe idealism, everything is filtered through our minds across a dissociative boundary and has an appearance on the screen of our perceptions. What we perceive as being external -- the universe if you like -- looks, consensually, pretty much the same to all of us when in an ordinary state of mind.

But it's all filtered and processed internal to the boundary. The world, whatever it is, doesn't change in any state of mind, only how it's interpreted does. Why should how the world appears to us in altered mental states be real, whereas what we experience in ordinary states of consciousness be an illusion? Materialists assert the contrary: the world as it appears to us in ordinary states of consciousness is real, and how it appears in altered states is illusory.

However: maybe it's illusory in both cases. At least in ordinary states, how reality presents itself on the screen of perception (even if it's illusory) is useful, something an enlightened guru can benefit from no less than an ardent materialist. Both (at least if they want to survive) will avoid stepping into the path of what they see as a moving vehicle; both will try to avoid something they see as an attacker with a knife. Most of us have an instinctive desire to survive, and if reality always appeared as it does in psychedelic states, more of us would probably fail to do so -- and it's very hard to see any utility in that.

The main benefit in taking psychedelics may come when the trip is over. Maybe for the first time, we've become aware that the world can be perceived in some other way, and begin to suspect that the way we usually see it is no less of an illusion than it was during the trip. Of course, some may conclude that the real world is as they saw it during the trip. That might well be significant for them and they may seek to repeat the experience, but if Timothy Leary is anything to go by, the change wasn't enough to fundamentally alter him. He was still the same womaniser seemingly incapable of forming a deep and lasting relationship, still the kind of guy who was afraid of imprisonment and did a deal with the FBI after he'd escaped (see this video at around 40 minutes in).

I've occasionally experienced heightened states of awareness, but without ever having taken psychedelics or even having done much in the way of spiritual practices (no idea why or how). My experiences have never interfered with the way I perceive things with my senses, only the way I have perceived them in an interpretative sense. I've looked around and seen the same kind of people I've always seen, but felt about them differently than I usually do; they seem to have become much more meaningful. They've ceased to appear as mere ciphers. I've been amazed by their beauty and nobility, and had the realisation that, since they're very similar to me, I too am likely beautiful and noble. Sounds Pollyanna-ish, I know, but the point is, that by being able to perceive others as they might actually be, one can become more aware of what oneself might actually be.

I sometimes get an intimation of this feeling when I'm in a certain mood and searching YouTube for new as well as familiar music to listen to. At some point, I seem to loose the distinction between myself and the artist(s). I know it's they who are playing/singing, but somehow, it's also me; we're all performing and enjoying the music together; we're all aspects of the one thing, and there's no room for (for instance), jealousy because of someone else's talent. They are just different aspects of the one me, whoever that me might be. And one can extrapolate from that to all the different aspects of people as they perform actions I myself can't seem to perform. For a moment, it doesn't matter that I'm not Isaac Newton or Bobby McFerrin or Jess Glynn or Tommy Emmanuel or the Buddha or Jesus. We're all part of the same organism (all alters of the same consciousness) taking joy and wonderment from the same experiences.

I once toyed with the idea of taking psychedelics, of experiencing something totally mind-blowing, but in the end didn't, and the example of Timothy Leary illustrates why. So what if I were to be mind-blown? What use would it be if it didn't fundamentally change me? And in any case, experience has shown me that it's possible to be in a heightened state of awareness quite naturally, without even consciously trying. Which would be more likely to change the world? Getting everyone stoned once in a while, or finding some way to facilitate a natural capacity to interpret the world differently whilst perceiving it with the senses exactly as it has always seemed?

I don't suppose I even need to ask. In a negative sense, there's scads of evidence that quite natural changes in interpretation of the familiar appearance of the world can lead to undesirable consequences. Take fake news, for example. It's always been around, but only recently has it been dignified with a name and become a thing. All of a sudden, the world with its governments and institutions seems to have become more dangerous and threatening. Many people have a sense of impending doom and gloom, and all because they're looking through the prism from a slightly different angle. In reality, very little has changed.

What I'm waiting and hoping for is a much more optimistic change in interpretation of the world based on natural and spontaneous personal experience (as opposed to appropriation of consensus opinion). I have my doubts that psychedelics would have much of a role to play in that.
 
#23
David,
Again with the conspiracy stuff. What is this fascination with "conspiracies"?

You know what is a conspiracy? Every human interaction involving two or more people. Two guys decide to make a run to the store for a six pack of beer before the football game starts. They conspired to get beer. Have more than five or six guys at the party and conspiracies really proliferate. Bob and Joe like lite beer, but the others like IPA. Secret discussions ensue regarding what type of beer to buy and how much...should we have sausage or pepperoni on the pizza...someone will be left out of that discussion...CONSPIRACY!!!....The people putting on the football game conspired with the concessions vendors at the stadium and the tv network. The tv network conspired with the companies that make televisions. Everything. Sending money to Mother Teresa's orphan program is a conspiracy. Sending your children to school is participating in a conspiracy to educate the young.

You want a democracy? Well that means you have a govt run by people; not AI robots. People put their heads together and come up with all kinds of plans. That's conspiring. Some of the plans they act out on. Sometimes some of those actions are against the law of the land. That then becomes a criminal conspiracy. Sometimes the plans violate someone else's code of ethics. Sometimes people get trapped into group think and don't even realize they are conspiring to create a shared view of reality that might not even have any objective truth. Even if we had AI robots running things, it would be a conspiracy because someone had to program the robots and they had an agenda of some kind. This podcast/blog is a conspiracy in which we are participating. We are against materialistic science. We are conspirators.

The word really has no meaning outside a court of law where a specific illegal action is being looked at. The court and all of its judges and lawyers are involved in a conspiracy known as the "legal system". Then they all have their own sub-agendas and social cliques. Those are also conspiracies.

So the govt funded Wasson? So what? Why wouldn't it?

The first time I ingested a psychedelic - it was LSD.... 200 micrograms - a healthy enough dose to get a full psychedelic spectrum experience, but not an insane dose level. It was in liquid form (a diluted solution) that came in brown glass vials. I won't speak to the source...this was a long time ago...The dosage could be measured accurately from a pipet (sp?) type dispenser. I had read about it and was told about it by the people that obtained it for me. But nothing prepared me for the actual experience. There I was a couple hours later....wide awake and feeling more intensely intellectually and psychically aware than ever before...my thoughts, my awareness, my very essence expanding up and up through levels of consciousness ...All was Mind..... WOW! THIS IS IT! ....was a thought that crossed my mind.....but who was the mind that just had the thought?......that question led to an unfolding of new layers of reality and realization....and there was a certain funny aspect to the question....it was ridiculous and it made me laugh....a deep belly laugh....because in the midst of all of this direct connection with all of this MIND, it was a indeed a silly question and it was an amusing artifact of an outmoded thought habit that I once had......when was it that I used to think in such a narrow silly and misguided way?........Holly Cow!....It was just a minute ago!.....I just experienced universes of consciousness and went on incredible mental and spiritual journeys and, by outmoded thinking land measures, it all happened in a like a minute....There is no time. It's another silly construct...this makes me laugh even harder. The puny idea that is my day to day ego is kind of a sad limited little thing....yet I start to feel a sense of compassion and love for that sad fragile little thing....this propels me through a river of archetypical concepts....and I am off on another journey through layers of Mind.....on and on and on....except there is no on and on and on because it's all happening now and there is not time....when you get to the bottom you get back to the top.......now I'm talking to a spiritual force that seems to exist independent of me and is wise and kind......yet it isn't independent of me because All is One....WOW! This isn't a dream or hallucination....it is real! Realer than what the outmoded used to experience day to day....on and on and on....but not on and on...NOW. HERE......EVERYWHERE...

None of that which occurred was (or is) intellectual musings. Rather a direct experience of these things. Let that soak in - Direct Experience. That is what psychedelics do for me.

Back to the CIA and "conspiracies" for a moment....

....The CIA (using CIA as a generic term for many govt agencies since that is what all the conspiracy nuts like to do) had discovered LSD in the 1950s. They apparently thought it might be good for interrogating people and getting the truth out of them. They were looking for substances that would do that for them. That research, despite offending the more sanctimonious delicate flowers amongst us, is a legitimate thing for a national security agency to do in a world where nuclear armed enemies could destroy humanity any day. However, the reports of the drug's effects were different and rather interesting. Since it was deemed physically harmless, CIA guys decided to try it themselves. They experienced amazing states of mind like I did.

Breaking news...CIA guys are people too. Usually pretty smart people at that. They were as impressed with the state of mind induced by LSD as I was. Being people with interests and dreams and concerns and everything else that everyone feels and thinks, they naturally thought that maybe these substances could bring about some good in society. Like, what if everyone had a taste of the True Nature of Awareness? Maybe it could make for a better world? Hippies certainly thought (and said) that same thing after using the drug. CIA guys aren't allowed to? Hippies hold a copywrite on those thoughts?

So you get a Wasson funded to explore a related drug that is found in certain mushroom species. You get the cover of LIFE magazine. ....Hey, let's legitimize this stuff a little and see what happens if more people, a wider swath of society starts using it. It just might make a positive difference in the world, what with nuclear weapons proliferating and the horror of WW2 recently behind us it's worth a shot.

Why a banker? Because CIA guys were almost exclusively recruited from the Ivy League. They needed to have what used to be referred to as "Background". A banker was someone they could trust and relate to because he too had background. That's old school WASP ...I realize that the prols and hippies hate it. Tough. Besides, the banker already had a great interest in mushrooms. Why this needs to be twisted into some kind of fuel for paranoid fantasies escapes me entirely.

I think I mentioned that in a democracy you get a govt of people....so ...some people are bad guys. Straight up sociopaths. Others become misguided and cold hearted for various reasons; sometimes because they are distracted and not paying attention....people like that (and sociopaths )are everywhere - even in guru-land and hippy communes ....anyhow, yes, when you're dealing with people, some of them are going to get out of hand and do bad things, like some of the more infamous examples of MK Ultra activities.....I refer back to my example and question in a previous comment (up thread) about airline crashes. When a plane crashes it needs to be investigated and we need to do all we can to ensure that the issue is remedied......but we still fly and we still know that some day another plane is going to crash........why do we apply a totally different standard to the CIA?

I think all of this conspiracy theory stuff is, on the one hand, a pathetic admission - almost a desperate cry - that says "I am weak and powerless and people are messing with me". . ...on the other hand, it is an attempt to cover up that weakness by appearing to be "in the know" , and thus somewhat in control, regarding big forces in society and life in general.

It seems to me that when most people use the word "conspiracy" it is emotionally loaded and has sinister connotations + a specific meaning beyond the face value. What they are really saying is "People with more *power* than I are making decisions that might impact me in a negative way and I am not even aware of what those decisions are or who is making them and that scares me".

But, because of that strong subjective element as to what is a "conspiracy" then we get into all kinds of disagreements based on personal values, intelligence and levels of understanding. So I don't like the term outside of legal definitions. Sam hired Big Pete to murder his business partner. Here's the evidence. Ok. That is a criminal conspiracy to commit murder. No problem. The CIA helped Wasson go study mushrooms? Not a conspiracy. Just people being people. The fact that some of the players are associated with the government is immaterial.

Like I said, if you don't want to be mind controlled, then don't be. It's that simple. No one is forcing you to believe facebook memes, or the "news" or to put LSD on your tongue. No one can rob you of your honor or integrity or your essential soul....unless you let them.
I can see your point, to an extent regarding conspiracies, but remember, you could view NK as simply another of those pesky conspiracies that people like so much - jolly good fun to control the media (even more than is the case over here), and make everyone refer to the Dear Leader, and work for peanuts for the sake of the Dear Leader - just like tricking someone into getting that pizza you like, rather than the one they would prefer!

Anyway, enough of all that. You experienced timelessness - as do many NDE experiencers, and this is something we have debated onthe forum a number of times. I guess my problem is that people 'out there' are supposed to learn, and improve, and understand, etc etc. Yet all those verbs imply a before and an after - e.g. there is the state before some particular thing is learned, and another state after it has been learned. How does that work in a timeless realm?

Not having had such an experience, My best effort is to imagine there being two time axes - one for this realm (T1), and another for beings out there. Thus they can manipulate this realm as a whole - past, present, and future but they do that in T2, which progresses linearly just like our time. Can you comment from direct experience?

Shall we split the discussion into politics and consciousness matters? We could keep both in this thread, or (preferably) take one of them to a new thread (any user can create them).

David
 
B

Baccarat

#24
Off topic but Julian assange said podesta had Seth rich murdered and said podesta is a pedophile. Pizza gate seems more legit
 
#25
I can see your point, to an extent regarding conspiracies, but remember, you could view NK as simply another of those pesky conspiracies that people like so much - jolly good fun to control the media (even more than is the case over here), and make everyone refer to the Dear Leader, and work for peanuts for the sake of the Dear Leader - just like tricking someone into getting that pizza you like, rather than the one they would prefer!

Anyway, enough of all that. You experienced timelessness - as do many NDE experiencers, and this is something we have debated onthe forum a number of times. I guess my problem is that people 'out there' are supposed to learn, and improve, and understand, etc etc. Yet all those verbs imply a before and an after - e.g. there is the state before some particular thing is learned, and another state after it has been learned. How does that work in a timeless realm?

Not having had such an experience, My best effort is to imagine there being two time axes - one for this realm (T1), and another for beings out there. Thus they can manipulate this realm as a whole - past, present, and future but they do that in T2, which progresses linearly just like our time. Can you comment from direct experience?

Shall we split the discussion into politics and consciousness matters? We could keep both in this thread, or (preferably) take one of them to a new thread (any user can create them).

David
Hi David,
No need to split the convo into politics versus consciousness matters on my behalf. I am, seriously, done with the politics part. I have nothing more to add and we'd probably just go round and round. If others want to, sure, but not for me. Unless some entirely new angle comes up that I'm interested in discussing.

I kind of addressed some of your consciousness question in my first comment, but it is worth expanding upon. Mind you, of course, this is just lil' ole me's opinion and may or may not contain some amount of truth or wisdom. I promise I try to be as honest and articulate as I can be, but, as always, all caveats apply.

First, I have not used LSD in many years. I don't know where to obtain it now. I do use psilocybin containing mushrooms perhaps once a year, ritualistically. A couple of different species naturally occur where I live and I know how to identify them, etc. (I may even encourage their appearance by enhancing the natural environment in their favor a little bit ;-). With the mushrooms, more so than LSD, one may experience psi and precognition. I know I have in verifiable ways (passed my analysis at any rate). One also tends to connect with a spiritual being that seems to be separate from one's own being. It comes to you and tells you things about the future, answers questions. It is often stern, but fair and accurate. It often tells you about the path you're on and where corrections are needed for spiritual growth. Others have discussed this aspect. It interests me greatly. So there's a lot happening with these things in addition to the timelessness and experience of Infinity.

Anyhow, directly to your question about time - in my experience, there are [at least] two realms. One that has time (our normal state of awareness in the material world) and then the realm of Spirit, or Mind at large, in which, if time exists - and it seems to not - it is quite different than time in the material realm. Note: These "realms" are states of mind, focus...not geographical locations.

In this Mind at Large Realm, which we are intimately connected to, like we're children of it, there is a sense of perpetual becoming and yet, simultaneously, everything happening at once. However, "becoming" doesn't imply evolution, which, in turn, implies a time flow. It's more like endless realization of the ecstatic beauty and force of the creative power that lies at the heart of The Mind At Large. Because that is All There Is at bottom. Someone might even call it God. I'm hesitant to go there (remnants of my Christian upbringing and fears of blasphemy? Humbleness?), but don't criticize when people do.

I think what is happening is an idea that you are probably familiar with. We really are that Mind At Large at core (or like its offspring). However, for some reason we, as perceptual beings, aware beings, conscious beings, have separated from The Mind At Large and then narrowed the band of perception capabilities with which we are naturally endowed such that we create a physical world to inhabit where there is something called "time" (I think we create other worlds too that operate rather differently and we inhabit those as well at different points). Why we have done this is beyond me. Religions speak to it. Spiritual traditions speak to it. Mystics speak to it, but I never heard anything that seems to me to be the true answer; just myths that help those who have pierced the veil have something to hold onto. It's a mystery. I have some suspicions, but they're probably no better than anyone else's who may differ from mine.

The problem is that as soon as we try to communicate these experiences to each other we are forced back into ego and earth real rules. Out there, there are no opposites - really, no separation. Here there are opposites. It is not possible, as far as I can see, to talk about a world of no opposites, no time from the framework of separation, time and opposites.

I think the key is that *we* created opposites, time and separation as constructs for whatever reason. They aren't universal truths. A loose analogy would be a group of musicians that decides they will play every song in the key of A major, 4/4 time, 80 beats per minute and that the only acceptable chords are A, E, D, B minor. At some point they forget that that is a choice they made. Then they teach music to others and these limitations are passed on. At some point no one knows that there is anything more to music than that. But of course there is.

I am familiar with the spiritual literature (and even via a séance I personally attended) wherein spirits talk about evolving "on the other side". I think this is true. I also think that there is not a dichotomy between this earth realm and where spirits dwell. It's NOT either or. IMO, there is a graduated scale. You can pass out of this realm and still have an individual ego and a self-limited mindset. So no physical body, but you still perceive as a separate entity. Your mind can hold onto concepts that habituated to on earth. You still experience opposites and time. It might be a little more expanded than in the earth realm, but it still exists. IMO "advancing" in the spirit realm probably involves getting closer to The Mind At Large and, thus, experiencing less time, less separation, less opposites and more glorious perpetual becoming.

One of the most mind blowing aspects is ego loss. When the ego goes, so does time, opposites and separation. Hope that helps. realized I'm rambling a bit and need to tighten it up. Again, very challenging, if not impossible, to express. I will work on it.

One more point - IMO, some NDE experiencers get to that timeless state, but, had they stayed dead, they would have reverted back to some greater ego control. Just as a psychedelic user does once the drug has worn off - though a thoughtful person will recall the experience and contemplate the ramifications and it will bring about positive changes in his life. I know it has in mine. Guys like Leary kept getting sucked into hopped up ego states because he was a celebrity and a guru, etc. That's a trap.

Again, time is an ego construct. Psychedelics will rocket launch you beyond your ego used in the right set and setting and at sufficient does levels. Ego loss can be brought about gradually over, say a lifetime of meditation, faith in something bigger, dedication to service to others...but as I have said, psychedelics are going to do it right here, right now in a big, undeniable and highly energetic way.

On that note I'd be remiss if I didn't include a word of caution. Having your mind blown and ego dissolved is NOT for everyone. Psychedelics can kick your ass, hard and permanently (in some rarer cases). They are not all fun and games. Furthermore, if you're just buying the material from some joker, you don't know what you're really getting or how much. I would stay away from purchasing drugs on the street or from friends who may mean well, but might be poorly informed.

These things aren't going to turn you into instant superman guru. You have to have background. You must make yourself a clean solid person in normal life to be successful with these things. I mean it.
 
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#26
David,
I've got it....a shorter me - the experience of time is directly tied to the amount of personal ego you hold onto. As ego dissolves, so does time.

It is the ego (as we know it) that creates the world (in consensus with other egos). Stop the ego and you stop the world and a new existence emerges.

This world is totally ego dependent. When the physical body ceases, the ego declines to some extent. A part of its sustenance and orientation and raison d'etre is gone. The amount the ego declines determines how much the experience of time declines. Let go all the way permanently and you are merged with the timeless perpetual glory of the source of all things.

Psychedelics can take us to where we can see this and touch upon it. The trick is to stay there. Most of us aren't ready for that. The forces that created our individuality are strong enough to pull us back, to reform us and, thus this world and its time, etc. We will stay in the oneness when we are ready. Psychedelics show us that there is such a thing as Oneness, that there is an infinity behind our closed minds. As I stated, the mushrooms in particular are good at showing us what is causing our ego to maintain tyrannical control, assuming that one's goal is true spiritual realization (= merging with the glory that is the source of All)
 
#28
Psychedelics can take us to where we can see this and touch upon it. The trick is to stay there. Most of us aren't ready for that. The forces that created our individuality are strong enough to pull us back, to reform us and, thus this world and its time, etc. We will stay in the oneness when we are ready. Psychedelics show us that there is such a thing as Oneness, that there is an infinity behind our closed minds. As I stated, the mushrooms in particular are good at showing us what is causing our ego to maintain tyrannical control, assuming that one's goal is true spiritual realization (= merging with the glory that is the source of All)
Psychedelics may create hallucinations of oneness. I prefer psychical research to drug-induced nightmares.

Why would anybody even want to merge with anything? If you merge with "the source" or "oversoul" etc. you cease to exist.
 
#29
Psychedelics may create hallucinations of oneness. I prefer psychical research to drug-induced nightmares.

Why would anybody even want to merge with anything? If you merge with "the source" or "oversoul" etc. you cease to exist.
Nightmares?

Hallucinations?

Such interpretations and judgments!!!

It's not a matter of wanting.

Who's in control?
 
#30
Hi David,
No need to split the convo into politics versus consciousness matters on my behalf. I am, seriously, done with the politics part. I have nothing more to add and we'd probably just go round and round. If others want to, sure, but not for me. Unless some entirely new angle comes up that I'm interested in discussing.

I kind of addressed some of your consciousness question in my first comment, but it is worth expanding upon. Mind you, of course, this is just lil' ole me's opinion and may or may not contain some amount of truth or wisdom. I promise I try to be as honest and articulate as I can be, but, as always, all caveats apply.

First, I have not used LSD in many years. I don't know where to obtain it now. I do use psilocybin containing mushrooms perhaps once a year, ritualistically. A couple of different species naturally occur where I live and I know how to identify them, etc. (I may even encourage their appearance by enhancing the natural environment in their favor a little bit ;-). With the mushrooms, more so than LSD, one may experience psi and precognition. I know I have in verifiable ways (passed my analysis at any rate). One also tends to connect with a spiritual being that seems to be separate from one's own being. It comes to you and tells you things about the future, answers questions. It is often stern, but fair and accurate. It often tells you about the path you're on and where corrections are needed for spiritual growth. Others have discussed this aspect. It interests me greatly. So there's a lot happening with these things in addition to the timelessness and experience of Infinity.

Anyhow, directly to your question about time - in my experience, there are [at least] two realms. One that has time (our normal state of awareness in the material world) and then the realm of Spirit, or Mind at large, in which, if time exists - and it seems to not - it is quite different than time in the material realm. Note: These "realms" are states of mind, focus...not geographical locations.

In this Mind at Large Realm, which we are intimately connected to, like we're children of it, there is a sense of perpetual becoming and yet, simultaneously, everything happening at once. However, "becoming" doesn't imply evolution, which, in turn, implies a time flow. It's more like endless realization of the ecstatic beauty and force of the creative power that lies at the heart of The Mind At Large. Because that is All There Is at bottom. Someone might even call it God. I'm hesitant to go there (remnants of my Christian upbringing and fears of blasphemy? Humbleness?), but don't criticize when people do.

I think what is happening is an idea that you are probably familiar with. We really are that Mind At Large at core (or like its offspring). However, for some reason we, as perceptual beings, aware beings, conscious beings, have separated from The Mind At Large and then narrowed the band of perception capabilities with which we are naturally endowed such that we create a physical world to inhabit where there is something called "time" (I think we create other worlds too that operate rather differently and we inhabit those as well at different points). Why we have done this is beyond me. Religions speak to it. Spiritual traditions speak to it. Mystics speak to it, but I never heard anything that seems to me to be the true answer; just myths that help those who have pierced the veil have something to hold onto. It's a mystery. I have some suspicions, but they're probably no better than anyone else's who may differ from mine.

The problem is that as soon as we try to communicate these experiences to each other we are forced back into ego and earth real rules. Out there, there are no opposites - really, no separation. Here there are opposites. It is not possible, as far as I can see, to talk about a world of no opposites, no time from the framework of separation, time and opposites.

I think the key is that *we* created opposites, time and separation as constructs for whatever reason. They aren't universal truths. A loose analogy would be a group of musicians that decides they will play every song in the key of A major, 4/4 time, 80 beats per minute and that the only acceptable chords are A, E, D, B minor. At some point they forget that that is a choice they made. Then they teach music to others and these limitations are passed on. At some point no one knows that there is anything more to music than that. But of course there is.

I am familiar with the spiritual literature (and even via a séance I personally attended) wherein spirits talk about evolving "on the other side". I think this is true. I also think that there is not a dichotomy between this earth realm and where spirits dwell. It's NOT either or. IMO, there is a graduated scale. You can pass out of this realm and still have an individual ego and a self-limited mindset. So no physical body, but you still perceive as a separate entity. Your mind can hold onto concepts that habituated to on earth. You still experience opposites and time. It might be a little more expanded than in the earth realm, but it still exists. IMO "advancing" in the spirit realm probably involves getting closer to The Mind At Large and, thus, experiencing less time, less separation, less opposites and more glorious perpetual becoming.

One of the most mind blowing aspects is ego loss. When the ego goes, so does time, opposites and separation. Hope that helps. realized I'm rambling a bit and need to tighten it up. Again, very challenging, if not impossible, to express. I will work on it.

One more point - IMO, some NDE experiencers get to that timeless state, but, had they stayed dead, they would have reverted back to some greater ego control. Just as a psychedelic user does once the drug has worn off - though a thoughtful person will recall the experience and contemplate the ramifications and it will bring about positive changes in his life. I know it has in mine. Guys like Leary kept getting sucked into hopped up ego states because he was a celebrity and a guru, etc. That's a trap.

Again, time is an ego construct. Psychedelics will rocket launch you beyond your ego used in the right set and setting and at sufficient does levels. Ego loss can be brought about gradually over, say a lifetime of meditation, faith in something bigger, dedication to service to others...but as I have said, psychedelics are going to do it right here, right now in a big, undeniable and highly energetic way.

On that note I'd be remiss if I didn't include a word of caution. Having your mind blown and ego dissolved is NOT for everyone. Psychedelics can kick your ass, hard and permanently (in some rarer cases). They are not all fun and games. Furthermore, if you're just buying the material from some joker, you don't know what you're really getting or how much. I would stay away from purchasing drugs on the street or from friends who may mean well, but might be poorly informed.

These things aren't going to turn you into instant superman guru. You have to have background. You must make yourself a clean solid person in normal life to be successful with these things. I mean it.
I think that is about the best explanation of timelessness that I have read. Maybe you should write a book on the subject. Do you have a specific reason to say that you can retain some ego while dead, and that the psychedelic effects in an NDE fade even for those who are dead?

David
 
#31
I don't understand why people think drugs that are known to cause hallucinations could be giving a reliable view into other realms. What is the use of going to another realm while hallucinating? What can you reliably learn from that?

I can sort of understand that if drugs can show you that what we think of reality is an illusion produced by the mind, that could be helpful.

But, while I don't know about entheogens, I do know that the people who tried to turn me on to other illegal drugs were among the worst people I have met, none of them ever did me any good, and my life would not be any worse and probably somewhat better had I never met them, People who advocate for the victims in every international conflict seem to turn a blind eye to the victims of drug gangs and support, through purchases of illegal drugs, criminal organizations which are involved in more than just pushing addictive drugs that destroy lives, they are involved in human trafficking, subverting governments, and many other horrible crimes. I don't know where people get entheogens, but if they they get them from illegal sources, that is not going to help them spiritually, it is going to cause a lot of bad karma.


https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tbigxs2bf7udippy56gs23s24jm

Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (Remastered)​
The Beatles​
Lyrics​
Picture yourself in a boat on a river​
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies​
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly​
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes​
Cellophane flowers of yellow and green​
Towering over your head​
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes​
And she's gone​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain​
Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies​
Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers​
That grow so incredibly high​
Newspaper taxis appear on the shore​
Waiting to take you away​
Climb in the back with your head in the clouds​
And you're gone​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Picture yourself on a train in a station​
With plasticine porters with looking glass ties​
Suddenly someone is there at the turnstile​
The girl with the kaleidoscope eyes​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Reminding myself that Albert Einstein said the Universe is, "an illusion," then by deduction, if this illusion became since our birth here so real for us, then I believe anything is possible in lives to come. Maybe even compliant with the above Beatle lyrics.
 
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#32
I think its a little scattered too... There are a lot of topics here. They're different and they intersect. Get's a little muddied when you're not careful. We can talk about the effects, the experience, the phenomenology of these drugs, or the history, or the current sociology.... i mostly want to make the point that these substances are obviously the most powerful mind changing drugs and they can and have been used for everything. From experiencing mystical realities, for healing, and for driving one mad. This current renaissance is, like the last wave of publicizing psychedelics, a op of sort of secret societies to distract and disorient large swaths of people. We're seeing an advance of a Brave New World agenda.... There is no question in my mind the drugs have profound benefits and profoundly negative consequences. It all depends on who is administering them, and why. Like sex. Thanks for listening and commenting. It needs a lot of editing. Glad to discuss....
Hi Robert

I actually enjoyed the show, but then I have taken LSD and mushrooms, read a heap on the subject and am old enough to know who you were talking about. But I also wondered how the show would fly with those without the background to knit together the interesting strands of thought.

I like the idea that entheogens kicked off then original revolution in the consciousness of our ancestors and have, ever since, provided access to the metaphysical dimension of human consciousness (along without methods).

I have heard arguments that the department state promoted the spread of 'consciousness altering' substances in an effort to control elements of our culture - but I think that's a silly idea. On the other hand I think having a strategic interest is perfectly sensible if an idea of defence includes defence of the normal. Do entheogens represent an avenue of threat? That's a perfectly sensible question. As is then question 'Do they offer the prospect of some advantage?

I think if we stop thinking with our habituated materialistic thinking and start imagining things from then POV that the metaphysical is real we have to start thinking as if what entheogens open up to us is part of an actual reality in relation to which it is sensible to take the same precautions on behalf of a culture as might be considered for anticipated dangers in the material world.

I am not saying I agree - just that I can appreciate that there is sense in a government having some level of interest.

On mundane level, using entheogens as entertainment is problematic - because encounters with the extreme non-ordinary are risky. I took LSD laced with substances that kept me conscious and in my body - so I was firmly anchored on this side of the barrier while being opened up to tantalising hints of what might be. That radicalised my sense of what reality was, nevertheless, but it was not the full experience. In a way that was a pity, because it also distorted the perceptions that were available. It limited the depth of insight.

And yet I do think that the use of entheogens in the 60s and 70s had a transformative impact on our culture. The later use of consciousness altering substances I am not so sure about - in the sense that I don't see that opium derivatives, cocaine (in any of its forms) or any of the later manufactured substances had a similar opening affect. I thought too that cannabis was degraded from a friendly spirit that stimulated inspiration to a head kicker that was just favoured for the magnitude of the hit. I quit smoking because the experience became unpleasant.

Entheogens seem to have always been used a means for deeper connection with the metaphysical side our our reality - and a source of insight and wisdom. From what I read there are sanctioned applications that are used to treat addictions and PTS(D) - but not yet, in any public sense at least, about mapping the vertical axis of our reality (the horizontal axis being the material). That seems to concern a mixture of defence and religious interests because the implications are functional/operational as well as moral and hierarchical (who really is running the show and where do we fit in the scheme of things?)

I also see a strong link between entheogens and ET. I thought Strieber has been gesturing in the right direction, but is being ignored because he hasn't offered a tidy proposition. We have a choice - we can seek explanations or better questions - and the explanations brigade seems to dominate the discourse. I learned years ago that the challenge is not to find answers so much as it is to learn to ask smarter questions.

I know this is a bit of a ramble but I am getting to a point - I needed to articulate the context first, so your response can be shaped better.

So I am curious to know your thoughts on how entheogens are being employed now and where you think things are going - in the public domain and in the dark world of strategic secrets. If you are familiar with Strieber, do you think he is pointing in the right direction?
 
#33
What is the use of going to another realm while hallucinating? What can you reliably learn from that?
Hi Jim. Hallucinating is a very misleading term. There are times when our brains construct scenarios that are not real because we have a reflex to fill in missing bits to create a coherent picture. For example I was spinning out on a drug and sitting in a room where a combination of furnishings and clothing created an appearance that there was a man sitting in a chair. Part of me wanted to believe there was, but another part knew this was not real. That was because I had quite a number of trips and knew to be aware. There are accounts where these perpetual tricks have become the grounds for experiences.

The trouble with the word hallucination is that it is used by folk to mean the mere experience of seeing something that they insist is not there. This is based upon a false proposition that if something is real everyone can see it. That is simply not true. As a result a hallucination has come to mean an unreal and unreliable experience.

My Oxford Dictionary app reliably obeys this standard line - "an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present". I would say that definition could be altered to say "an experience involving the perception of something others do not perceive to be present." Notice how the dictionary favours what we call 'consensus reality' - that is what is an agreed and imposed version of what is real.

That definition is what we'd call discriminatory these days - because it presumes there is no alternative and equally value interpretation.

The very business of going to another realm is what is called hallucinating. So you choose which definition you wish to apply.
 
#34
Also, I have been thinking about a way to describe the effect of psychedelics to people who have never used them
Yeah, and try describing sex to virgins, and reason to Trump. Some things can't be done. We imagine that, courtesy of movies, we can understand what the battlefield experience is to a war veteran. At best we can be moved toward empathy - but not arrive. Movement in the right direction is a good thing, so long as you don't imagine that its the same thing as being there. Trump is on record as saying that dodging STDs in the NY dating game was like being in Vietnam. Really? Don't go there - no imagined scenario is equivalent to the actual experience.

I spent 3.5 years working on veteran's medical and service histories over 4 conflicts and despite all the deep and graphic detail I knew I had no idea what those guys went through. That applies, I think, for any strong transformative experience -whether transcendental or traumatic. I know that the few times I bother talking about my paranormal experiences very few people 'get it' - and they turn out to be experiencers themselves.

There is nothing remarkable about this. We don't get what we don't know, and imagining, with the help of movies, or whatever, makes no real difference. If you have been in a car accident try telling other what's that like. Back in the 1960s I walked in parts of the southern Tasmanian wilderness that had seen no human presence for at least 100 years. There was a quality of place that was indescribable to the extent that I have never tried to tell others after failing to tell myself in recollection. At the core of my being I know and remember - but you cannot be there. And so you cannot know.
 
#35
It amuses me that the people who promote some conspiracy theories and demonize the govt are also the ones that call for more govt in our lives. Govt is just people with all the foibles that all afflict all people. The CIA et al are neither good nor bad, black/white. Just flawed humans that often do good and sometimes do bad; sometimes intentionally and sometimes accidently. I do not see that agency's (or any other's) interest in these matters as indicative of evil intent on its face. If you do, I am genuinely interested understanding why.
Hey Eric

I am so with you on this point. We have to go back a long time for when those who ruled were governed by deep and genuine spiritual motives. These days we are in a degenerative spiral, but that does not mean we can escape the reality that rulership is an inherent component of human culture. If we want better rulers then we need to give them something better to rule - especially if we value freedom and democracy.

The US got Trump in part because a certain portion of the community had justifiable grounds for being disaffected, and in part because Clinton was on the nose with so many people. She wanted to be the first female president after the first black president and that was not the right motive at that time.

But the reality is that, these days, some asshole is going to be leader and the prime question is whether it will be somebody who is corrupt and competent or somebody corrupt and incompetent. The US got the latter because it didn't understand between cause and symptom. Presidents are symptoms, not causes.

And so people furiously refuse to look at themselves as causes and invent idiotic conspiracy theories to explain the relationship between the symptom misperceived as the cause and what they think is reality. The problem is that in the US you have a population in excess of 300.2m and that means that you can survive talking complete BS because you have a sufficient volume of supports to make a viable market.

In Australia where I live our 24m odd population hasn't been large enough to sustain shitheads in marginal market segments until the advent of the internet. Now we have an idiot rich dude in Queensland running the completely stupid line of Make Australia Great Again. Courtesy of our electoral system and the utter banality of our politicians his mob may win a senate seat and that may put them in some position of influence.

They are all into assinine conspiracy theories - lunatic notions based upon untruths, deranged interpretations and stupid analyses.

Don't get me wrong. The ruling elite do conspire and they do lousy, rotten and evil things. It has been ever thus for a long time. But deflecting our attention into powerless outrage about their imagined and alleged evils will do nothing but drain our energy and sap our moral strength.

It is a fundamental principle that a free people cannot be oppressed (for long). The history of the rise of democracy and equality tells us that. And now we are induced to engage in lurid tales of the ultra powerful and for that purpose? Do I need the intimate details of criminals to induce me to moral conduct? No. That arises from within.

I have friends who are into conspiracy theories and they are disappionted that I do not join them. I am "closed minded" and "burying my head in the sand". I tell them I am too busy doing things that make a positive difference to spend the time I would need to fact check the claims they have accepted. So far they have been dead wrong, on evidence, on quite a few things they have insisted were true - at least by my fact checking.

I was no fan of Clinton by a long chalk. I thought the Clintons were crooked and I did not like Hilary on a gut reaction. But I liked Trump less. Having read over 15 books and listen to and watched god know how many hours of commentary I have formed the view that in fact Clinton was the lesser of the two evils becuase at least her criminal and despotic rule would have been more competent than Trump has shown to be.

You can have all the conspiracy theories you like, but when it comes down to who is to govern you have to go for competence. Conspiracy theories are a form of pornography - arousing and addictive - but ultimately you end up just spent and disappointed and your ability to engage with reality is screwed.

And yes, before you object, I have actually exhaustively examined some conspiracy theories, only to think they are BS. This is an important point for me. I do not believe things I have not examined in depth. Some conspiracy theories interest me but I do not have the time to commit to checking them out - so they are a 'no' for me.

Some seem to be real -as the JFK assination seems to show. Indeed I have no doubt that there are multiple acts of complete bastardy perpetrated - and that's my point. Yes of course, but why are you so involved? An interest in history I get. But the time and energy you are investing could be put into something that will actually make a positive difference to a real person.

There are lots of people who do things that have little or no meaning to making the world a better place - and there are things I do that are completely self-indulgent - so I have no moral position. I know people collect beer mats (is that a thing in the US?) and stamps. I don't care. And I don't care about conspiracy theories in the same way. But I would far rather have a conversation about beer mats than chemtrails. At least beer mats are real.
 
#36
I think that is about the best explanation of timelessness that I have read. Maybe you should write a book on the subject. Do you have a specific reason to say that you can retain some ego while dead, and that the psychedelic effects in an NDE fade even for those who are dead?

David
I'm flattered. But, seriously, I could be wrong you know. I'd be scared to write a book. Someone might try to make a religion out of what I say and a guru out of me. I would hate that. Everyone needs to find out on their own.

My reason for saying that you can maintain ego when dead is based on studying after death communications (and experiencing one such very convincing one myself). The ADCs are definitely coming from distinct entities with distinct personalities, intent, etc. Hence, ego is maintained. There is a huge body of literature on ADCs.
 
#37
Yeah, and try describing sex to virgins, and reason to Trump. Some things can't be done. We imagine that, courtesy of movies, we can understand what the battlefield experience is to a war veteran. At best we can be moved toward empathy - but not arrive. Movement in the right direction is a good thing, so long as you don't imagine that its the same thing as being there. Trump is on record as saying that dodging STDs in the NY dating game was like being in Vietnam. Really? Don't go there - no imagined scenario is equivalent to the actual experience.

I spent 3.5 years working on veteran's medical and service histories over 4 conflicts and despite all the deep and graphic detail I knew I had no idea what those guys went through. That applies, I think, for any strong transformative experience -whether transcendental or traumatic. I know that the few times I bother talking about my paranormal experiences very few people 'get it' - and they turn out to be experiencers themselves.

There is nothing remarkable about this. We don't get what we don't know, and imagining, with the help of movies, or whatever, makes no real difference. If you have been in a car accident try telling other what's that like. Back in the 1960s I walked in parts of the southern Tasmanian wilderness that had seen no human presence for at least 100 years. There was a quality of place that was indescribable to the extent that I have never tried to tell others after failing to tell myself in recollection. At the core of my being I know and remember - but you cannot be there. And so you cannot know.
Michael,
Right re; virgins, etc. People who have never taken a psychedelic have all kinds of wrong ideas about what it is like. I have never seen an attempt to depict in the movies that even comes close. A lot of people think it's all about seeing stuff. They totally miss that it is a radical change in how your mind works that is what counts. If it was all about seeing stuff, then just slap on some VR goggles and enjoy a colored light show. In fairness, some people who use psychedelics are totally into the visual effects (The closed eyes visions, colored patterns that appear on textured surfaces (there are no pink elephants or anything like that). I have never understood users that are focused on the trivia. I suspect they are just stupid people with not much going on in their heads. That or they are trying to avoid experiencing the death of the ego by deflecting their focus into the trivia.

Except I like Trump. He isn't the one I would have chosen in an ideal situation, but he is doing just fine and he seems to be able to check the growing number of shrill socialists on the left and war mongers on the right better than anyone I've seen yet. The economy is fantastic. But I do agree that in the mass media age and with over 300 million people, whoever it is that gets elected is going to be some asshole. I'm not a socialist and I am against foreign adventures that cost big money and get young Americans killed for nothing (see Iraq). That doesn't leave me many viable options. Trump is the best option in the set and it's working out well so far.
 
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#38
rump is the best option in the set and it's working out well so far.
Well.this isn't a debate about Trump, so I will resist the temptation to rebut your observation at length. I use him as an illustration of my point/s because he represents a compelling, if not sufficient, demonstration of the theme under discussion. I get your POV, however.
 
#39
Except I like Trump. He isn't the one I would have chosen in an ideal situation, but he is doing just fine and he seems to be able to check the growing number of shrill socialists on the left and war mongers on the right better than anyone I've seen yet
I agree, but I'd replace the word 'socialists' with fanatics. I don't think the 'Left' stand for the same things as they used to do. They stand for fanatical, contrived positions on gender change, feminism, climate change, immigration, human rights, and incredibly Clinton is a warmonger. I don't know how they got like that, which is why I wondered if they might have been covertly fed a low dose of a psychedelic!

David
 
#40
Well.this isn't a debate about Trump, so I will resist the temptation to rebut your observation at length. I use him as an illustration of my point/s because he represents a compelling, if not sufficient, demonstration of the theme under discussion. I get your POV, however.
Well you can't expect someone called 'rump' to be much good - but Trump is another matter ;)

David
 
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