Sarah Westall, Trafficking/Blackmail Cycle of Evil |410|

Eric, I agree with most of your succinct take on pedophilia. It is well stated. And it leaves open the possibility of anomalous exceptions to the rule.

Everyone: I think I am done for the day. I just spend two hours writing and thinking about pedophilia. It isn't a good way to start the morning. (:
 
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Maybe Sarah is trying to point towards some vast conspiracy, but I think more likely she is trying to point towards "people being people" as you put it is much more common than the mainstream media and majority of people are willing to admit.

I definitely don't think anyone on this thread is trying to point to a vast conspiracy. The most outspoken poster on the opposite side of this "argument" from you, John, has pointed towards specific cases in isolation and has made no claims of connection between them.

Should we not be concerned with trying to shine light on atrocities because they are just part and parcel to humanity?

Runic,
We should absolutely be concerned and shed light on such a despicable phenomenon.

But when we infuse that conversation with names like Podesta, Trump, Epstein, etc, and talk about how child sex and blackmail are the glue that binds the elites, it sure smells like conspiracy land to me.

And who is not aware that child sexual exploitation happens? The catholic church has been publicly embroiled in the problem for as long as I can recall. The FBI down to local police agencies have resources dedicated to catching offenders. There is an offender registry that all offenders must update whenever they move, by law. I mean it is not a hidden or ignored thing in the least bit.
 
Eric, I agree with most of your succinct take on pedophilia. It is well stated. And it leaves open the possibility of anomalous exceptions to the rule.

Everyone: I think I am done for the day. I just spend two hours writing and thinking about pedophilia. It isn't a good way to start the morning. :)

Crystal,
Stare into the abyss long enough and.......
 
Define 'millennia'. I'd say people were changed by the imposition of a neurotically sexually-repressive 'conspiracy' (and they're not all theories) since (they call him a saint) Augustine arrived on british shores in AD 500. It took another 500yrs to convince the residents that they better go with (Catholic) Christianity. Their methods of persuasion were insane and very sick.

No. People were not fundamentally changed by that or any other social science phenomena.

Look what Shakespeare wrote about human nature. It's all still true. Changes in society impacted none of it. Look at what Jesus or Buddha said. Look at Gilgamesh from a hero's journey allegory standpoint. It's all perfectly applicable to humans today.

Maybe you are a political activist type that only sees superficial expressions?
 
Maybe Sarah is trying to point towards some vast conspiracy, but I think more likely she is trying to point towards "people being people" as you put it is much more common than the mainstream media and majority of people are willing to admit.

I definitely don't think anyone on this thread is trying to point to a vast conspiracy. The most outspoken poster on the opposite side of this "argument" from you, John, has pointed towards specific cases in isolation and has made no claims of connection between them.

Should we not be concerned with trying to shine light on atrocities because they are just part and parcel to humanity?

I do think the threads connect in some cases. I think that The Finders is related to the James Toward case (I have proof, I am currently gathering information to write a book on it and the finders). Some serial killers (Son of Sam cult for example) are related to this CNP pedophile/blackmail cult. Johnny Gosch and Franklin. There are connections but I have not proved that everything is linked to one giant grand conspiracy.
 
John Brisson -- First off, I enjoy your work, both for nutrition and for your take on those pulling the US foreign policy strings.

"McGowan was an atheist." Yes, but as I stated in a previous post, "welcome to America." In other words, you can be an atheist all day long, but if you and your ancestors are steeped in American culture, you are by default a Christian in many ways without knowing it. It still permeates and makes up much of your worldview whether you wish it to or not. I'm sure there are exceptions, and McGowan may be one such person. I don't know but based on interviews I have heard I assumed he was Christian. And the point in bringing up Christianity is not to belittle it but to simply say that many people within that faith, or without it but with that worldview, may be interpreting the facts and circumstantial evidence much differently than let's say I would. Other monotheistic faiths may have a similar issue. I don't know but suspect this may be true. But this is America and Christianity is the dominant worldview and theistic religion of this country (though civic religions like Progress and American Exceptionalism give it a run for its money).

And yes many cultures have sacrificed individuals in their worship. That is true. But often times this was done when a culture was struck with high levels of anxiety and at least subconsciously knew that they were "on their way down" towards some sort of collapse. Now, there are exceptions, of course, but those that used sacrifice in high numbers were usually those that were not going to last much longer. Once again, this ties into the economic and lifestyle insecurity of the times. And sometimes abuse can become cultural. I agree. But I see this far less in today's day and age. I don't wish to get into the weeds of older civilizations and cultures right now and admit to knowing less about this than you do.

IBut I have looked at many of the high profile cases you mention of modern day times. I HIGHLY disagree with the West Memphis case. To me, that case was straight up Satanic Panic. I have looked at all of the evidence, even the stuff that was supposedly kept from the public by the defense. To me, that is the watershed case. If you believe that case, you will believe any case. That has been my opinion for quite some time. I have researched it in many different headspaces (including once when I was all in on Franklin) and always come to the conclusion it utter bullshit and was mostly likely the father/stepfather that left town). FYI - A very close friend of mine tried to get Damien Echols on Higherside but I think Greg knows it would piss off half of his listenership.

I also disagree with Franklin as well. I think the books/investigations that were written linking it to a ritualized conspiracy of abuse are really awful when you break down the facts. I have troubles finding credulity in most of the witnesses involving the ritualized aspects. I was once a believer but not so much anymore. Did abuse take place at Boystown? It's Catholic, right? Was it covered up on numerous occasions? Yeah. I think there was perhaps enough of a scandal where it is possible that boys were taken from the place and raped. But the ritualized aspect, I don't see.

I'm also not sold on McMartin, despite the supposed "tunnel" that was found later allegedly substantiating some of the kids' claims. Pizzagate has no proof at all and it depends on some half-assed research about Podesta himself. Could he be a pedophile? Maybe. I don't know if those emails indicate as much. They might. He did cohort with some questionable people but so do all the major political and financial players in this country.

The best case is Finders. The residue of cult and MKUltra is all over this one, but of course the investigation was shut down for national security reasons. But this may have simply been some brainwashed MKUltra Cult (or just a crazy cult) that was weaponized for intelligence purposes, perhaps for exploring the psyche, etc. But that case does not mean the phenomenon was in every community in America. It simply means the US gov't was doing fucked up shady shit that we all know they do.

But here is the point. The satanic panic in the 80s and 90s was mostly about pre-schools and computer classes and church groups and places where kids congregated. It was about normal America. Satan is everywhere -- even your own block. Since that time, there has been a liberalization of culture in this country (gay rights and marriage, hate crime laws, hiring practice laws, sexual harassment laws, transgender laws and bathrooms etc.). A lot of people equate this (and abortion) to the moral degeneracy of the Left or sometimes "establishment" politics. So the big shift with satanic panic has gone from places where kids congregate to highly elaborate ratlines that service mostly the Democratic Party and their degeneracy. Sometimes people will say they don't believe in the Right/Left paradigm but then you see who they accuse and it is almost always high-level Democrats and Hollywood, the biggest symbol of the Left. (And they always say that all kinds of arrest warrants are just waiting for the president's word).

I have my own unprovable conspiracy theory. I think mostly it is an intentional psyops by right-wing operatives to win over malleable (angry, but disarmed) voters into the Republican fold. Q is part of this narrative.

Now, are there exceptions to all I have stated above? Yes. Do I understate things? Probably, Yes. But too often we connect dots that really are not there. We take one case, or a even a few with circumstantial evidence and make broad statements. We take strange cases that don't really add up and say "see, see, I told you that the elite are all a bunch of pedophiles. I told you that St. Joseph, Minnesota has a pedophile cult."

Remember, this whole conversation is because of an interview that Alex had of a lady who investigated the Wetterling case, and since then, now believes that there is ONE giant pedophile cult that performs ritual magic and believes that Satan/Lucifer worshipper have so much power that they can stop any investigation in this country. When people head down this massive pedophile cult rabbit hole, they ALL end up where Sarah Westall stands. And they all end up Hailing Q and his poison BBQ (or if not Q, at least some kind of quasi human race that rules humanity). It can be the only logical conclusion with this worldview. So, I will remain skeptical because of people like her. And in all honesty, people like her can become extremely dangerous if they rile up a community or provide unsubstantiated claims or evidence to the mix.

But mostly I am pissed at Alex because he let someone get away with claiming that the abuse was about blackmail, but then later said that the abuse is really just about Luciferian worship. Now, I suppose both can be true, but the root cause is Luciferianism according to her. I wish Alex would get a little more Skeptiko on this issue. P.S. I had never heard of Hoaxstead before and had to look it up.

First off, thank you for the kind words.

I disagree about the West Memphis Three. I went into the case being agnostic as I do with everything. I listened to hundreds of hours of pro and against opinions on the case. I read a multitude of books. I have read excerpts of Damien Echols psychiatric history. I read newspapers that I could get a hold of following the trial. I have seen the Paradise Lost trio of movies. I above all do not trust Damien Echols and I think he is guilty. Look at the modern day fruit of his labor, he is a current member of OTO, he is adored by Hollywood elites as a way to push the "satanic panic" narrative. His friendships with "great" people including Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder, and the Dixie Chicks. It was John Mark Byers, now it is Terry Hobbs. Yes, I have my issues with some of the evidence in the case like anything and I find somethings about Terry Hobbs suspect (however, I do not believe he was involved).

With Franklin what about the work of Gary Caradori, the interviews? His suspicious death? Alisha Owen never changing her story or recanting? The newspaper articles on Lawrence E King, before and after the scandal and his connections to the upper echelon of the Republican party? The allegations against Jack Kemp that are recorded in newspapers? The abuse of the Webb children? I understand you have issues with Decamp, I do as well. But when all the evidence at the time points that the scandal happened and at the bare minimum sexual abuse and trafficking happened IE Epstein, I am confused how it is a hoax?

I do agree that there is a lot of evidence with the Finders. I also am not a fan of the CNP Q narrative. I agree that because of the "satanic panic" narrative it is overlooked now that it is still happening in middle America. Abuse that goes underreported is still happening at preschools, day cares, boy scouts, church youth groups, etc. Now however no one can bring it up, because what are you a Christian that believes in "satanic panic." I guess the difference in you and I is that I believe in some cases ritual abuse does occur. However, it is not all ritual, ratlines, blackmail, and local pedophilia also occur.
 
I'm an artist and have lost all respect for Marina Abramovic. What (tf) is going on here?
The US came within a whisker of having a POTUS with its finger on the button who liked that form of 'art'.

They would actually have dinner round displays of that sort!

I once read an interview with HC a year before the election. She was asked about her hobbies, and those she quoted were very bland. Why didn't she make a point of explaining her love of that sort of art?

David
 
The US came within a whisker of having a POTUS with its finger on the button who liked that form of 'art'.
The Podesta brothers' taste in art is exceptionally disgusting and disturbing, no doubt about it.

However, please realize you are making this statement based on the fact that Clinton's campaign chairman's brother was asked by Abramovic to ask his brother to invite him to a dinner/performance of this kind. How do you know that extends to Clinton? Twisting that into Clinton loving this type of art is pretty damn lazy - moreso than the majority of what Eric and others here dismiss as smelling like "conspiracy land" yet he likes the comment anyway - this indicates some sort of bias towards the speculative theory spread around by CNP shills.
 
The Podesta brothers' taste in art is exceptionally disgusting and disturbing, no doubt about it.

However, please realize you are making this statement based on the fact that Clinton's campaign chairman's brother was asked by Abramovic to ask his brother to invite him to a dinner/performance of this kind. How do you know that extends to Clinton? Twisting that into Clinton loving this type of art is pretty damn lazy - moreso than the majority of what Eric and others here dismiss as smelling like "conspiracy land" yet he likes the comment anyway - this indicates some sort of bias towards the speculative theory spread around by CNP shills.

I'm not making any call on Clinton's artistic preferences or involvement in Satanism. I liked David's comment because I despise Clinton. She is the one who, literally, laughed about killing kadaffi (we came, we saw, he died - followed immediately by glee full giggles). Not to mention her little project to topple the govt of Libya resulted in it being taken over by jihadists and further not to mention her funding of jihadists in Syria (excuse me...not jihadists....moderate head choppers and liver eaters).

So yeah, I think we should feel fortunate that that psychopath's fingers aren't near the nuclear button.
 
I'm not making any call on Clinton's artistic preferences or involvement in Satanism. I liked David's comment because I despise Clinton. She is the one who, literally, laughed about killing kadaffi (we came, we saw, he died - followed immediately by glee full giggles). Not to mention her little project to topple the govt of Libya resulted in it being taken over by jihadists and further not to mention her funding of jihadists in Syria (excuse me...not jihadists....moderate head choppers and liver eaters).

So yeah, I think we should feel fortunate that that psychopath's fingers aren't near the nuclear button.

How do you feel about Trump?
 
So yeah, I think we should feel fortunate that that psychopath's fingers aren't near the nuclear button.

You ask for accuracy, discernment, evidence when it benefits your argument that others haven't provided it - but if wildly speculative statement is made as long as it is sympathetic with your political persuasion you're OK with it. Point taken. ;)

I despise Clinton too. Like you get peeved about 911 laziness, I get peeved with pizzagate laziness. I like 70% of what you have to say, Eric - no real sweat.

Pretty sure ops akin to Timber Sycamore and the like are still going on under Trump's admin with the likes of Bolton, Feinberg, and Kellogg advising. Trump is probably just better at not laughing about it all in public.
 
You ask for accuracy, discernment, evidence when it benefits your argument that others haven't provided it - but if wildly speculative statement is made as long as it is sympathetic with your political persuasion you're OK with it. Point taken. ;)

I despise Clinton too. Like you get peeved about 911 laziness, I get peeved with pizzagate laziness. I like 70% of what you have to say, Eric - no real sweat.

Pretty sure ops akin to Timber Sycamore and the like are still going on under Trump's admin with the likes of Bolton, Feinberg, and Kellogg advising. Trump is probably just better at not laughing about it all in public.

Runic,
Can you point to one thing I said that is unsupported wild speculation?

I think the Trump has done all he can to eliminate programs to support jihadists. And he cooperated with Russia and the Syrian Army to crush out ISIS and Al Qaeda + assorted allied groups. It's been slow going because he has to fight various spooks that don't want their little scheme to be dismantled and then there's Israel. These things have to be negotiated. I think we're just about there, though. The jihadists are finished.
 
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The Podesta brothers' taste in art is exceptionally disgusting and disturbing, no doubt about it.

However, please realize you are making this statement based on the fact that Clinton's campaign chairman's brother was asked by Abramovic to ask his brother to invite him to a dinner/performance of this kind. How do you know that extends to Clinton? Twisting that into Clinton loving this type of art is pretty damn lazy - moreso than the majority of what Eric and others here dismiss as smelling like "conspiracy land" yet he likes the comment anyway - this indicates some sort of bias towards the speculative theory spread around by CNP shills.

My memory fades a little, but I think HC did make some remark about liking the artist Abramovic. Also I think I am right that this information was hacked/leaked/whatever from HS's email server!

Do remember that we are not analogous to the jury in a court of law. A better analogy would be with detectives assembling a case.

David
 
How do you feel about Trump?

I'm fine with Trump and I voted for him. The economy is doing extremely well and he hasn't started any idiotic wars, so far. Nor has he established any socialism. Nor has he moved to confiscate guns. Nor is supporting identity politics, which in my opinion, are extremely destructive. That's all good enough for me/it works for me.

And no, I'm not interested in any of your internet sleuth conspiracy theory nonsense about him. IMO, if there was any dirt on him of a serious nature, it most assuredly would have come out by now.
 
Runic,
Can you point to one thing I said that is unsupported wild speculation?
It was also just a friendly jab about not holding as high a standard for and liking comments that align with your political sympathies even if they are inaccurate. Go back and re-read, it wasn't about anything you specifically said. Regardless, I meant it as a light-hearted jab.
 
I'm fine with Trump and I voted for him. The economy is doing extremely well and he hasn't started any idiotic wars, so far. Nor has he established any socialism. Nor has he moved to confiscate guns. Nor is supporting identity politics, which in my opinion, are extremely destructive. That's all good enough for me/it works for me.

And no, I'm not interested in any of your internet sleuth conspiracy theory nonsense about him. IMO, if there was any dirt on him of a serious nature, it most assuredly would have come out by now.

"IMO, if there was any dirt on him of a serious nature, it most assuredly would have come out by now."

I get it you are a steady as she goes type person. One of the most ignorant comments I have heard in awhile. Stuff has came out, where the hell have you been? Do you mean he has not been charged? Either was Bill Clinton or Barack Obama.

"And no, I'm not interested in any of your internet sleuth conspiracy theory nonsense about him."

Keep wearing your blinders and ear muffs. #trusttheplan

I hope you are right and I am wrong, however, if I am proven right you are on my list to come back and tell you that this internet sleuth was correct.
 
No. People were not fundamentally changed by that or any other social science phenomena.

Look what Shakespeare wrote about human nature. It's all still true. Changes in society impacted none of it. Look at what Jesus or Buddha said. Look at Gilgamesh from a hero's journey allegory standpoint. It's all perfectly applicable to humans today.

Maybe you are a political activist type that only sees superficial expressions?

Going back by how many millennia? 6, 8 or 10? since urban/agricultural 'civilisation' began? Your examples are all within this era and reveal exploitative, gratuitously cruel and repressive behaviour because patriarchal societies have been around that long.

I am european so have mostly studied 'white race' history. Yet early european pre-christian cultures share truths and compatibilities with known worldwide indigenous cultures including a balancing reverence for feminine and masculine deities/spirits, women and men having different, yet seen as equally valid roles and high priority for care of the sick and young. There are pockets of this matriarchal welfare-oriented belief system within our predominantly patriarchal 'interests of the individual' paradigm. And periods of matriarchal flourishing for e.g. in the hippy movement. The influence of the matrilineal Pictish clan is reflected in Scotland's more egalitarian marital laws. There were neolithic peaceful pagan societies showing care of the vulnerable in their archeology. The Cathars, where men and women lived together without thinking it sinful, before they were brutally eliminated by the Roman Catholic Church. And Minoans of Crete who avoided war for 1,500 years, their grave goods are few, without weapons, their art was naturalistic, their clothes and poetry demonstrate a pleasure in life and sex, and not an attentive reverence for death, exclusivity and condemnation of difference.

That behaviour is found where the Deity (singular) is male; women, the sick and young have low status; the hierarchy requires submission or passive compliance, and there is a marked propensity for indulging in violence, murder and exploitation. It has been this way for so long our memories are entrenched in assumptions that it represents all or a dominant trait of human nature. We are potentially diverse but the cycle that 'belief creates perception, which endorses experience and informs reality' tends to bring out some human traits and suppress others.

Mainstream reporting of our history is embedded in the prevailing belief system and does not often report on matriarchal social behaviour, which may not have a written record and anyway that might disadvantageously highlight some of the oppressive measures practiced by the invasive patriarchal culture, bent on the elimination of all others but its own. People will change their (spots) beliefs and behaviour, or will say they do, to fit in with the current cultural backdrop, especially if the alternative is some form of horribly painful death. Notably, in the history of war, the most successful generals were those who had and took the advice of an intelligent woman. It's a great combination, so long as there is true value and equality.

I don't know if you intended me to take your comment as a platform opportunity, but thank you for reading so far. I trace many of our modern world's problems to this central theme of gender inequality. Feminism is/should not be a men vs women issue. There are patriarchal women like HillaryClinton and MargaretThatcher who hang with those men that practice patriarchal domination (while they use the female-card) without introducing the views and needs of the women they claim to represent. Likewise there are matriarchal men who value the opinion of women and practice matriarchal views like open enquiry, live and let live etc. I know which one I'd like to live in, but we're not there yet. Men and women need to stick together, and not be afraid of the (other) F-word.
 
Eric, I agree with most of your succinct take on pedophilia. It is well stated. And it leaves open the possibility of anomalous exceptions to the rule.

Everyone: I think I am done for the day. I just spend two hours writing and thinking about pedophilia. It isn't a good way to start the morning. :)
Thanks Crystal, it's been very, very interesting
 
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