Schizophrenia or Spirit Possession, and interview with Mike Williamson

#1
Hello everyone,

Continuing the series on spiritualism and possession I interviewed medium Mike Williamson. Mike was by his own account 'an ordinary guy with no interest in spiritualism' (he thought it was just 'cranks trying to make money off people'.), until an injury to his daughters foot led him to a spiritual healer. This began a journey into the world of mediumship.

Mike specialises in facilitating confused earthbound spirits to move along, as well as combating the ones who are deliberately sticking around tormenting people. Much like Jerry Marzinsky, he also sees possession as the cause of a lot of schizophrenia.

Questions that arose for me from this interview:

Mike got into this area this area through spiritualist groups and his experience fits with their teaching. I am left to wonder is this because the teaching are objectively true or because it appears to people in the way they expect. Had Mike become interested in UFOs would he have had a fundamentally different type of experience?

Mike agrees with basically everyone I've spoken to on this topic, in saying that the spirit realm has the power to deceive us. For Mike, we are overwhelmingly (perhaps exclusively) dealing with human spirits, but these humans can pull on the masks of demons if they want to scare us. This is a reversal of the Fundamentalist Christian idea that it is demons pretending to be humans to entrap us.

Mike has a Minoan guide. I ask what relationship the guide has to that identity, having been 'dead' for four thousand years. I also ask if the guide expresses any interest in history. Mike states they are not really interested in such things but that the Minoan has told him they used to trade with Atlantis. I think that's highly revealing answer, I'm just not sure what it reveals.

Where as Jerry Marzinsky's experience of the spirit realm was quite negative and Clare Broad's was overwhelmingly positive, Mike's is mixed. Similarly to Clare's, he finds security from deception in a felt sense of the goodness of the spirit he's interacting with.


https://deepstateconsciousness.podbean.com/e/schizophrenia-or-spirit-possession-mike-williamson/

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podca...-mike-williamson/id1338867921?i=1000440316410
 
#2
Richard,

Thanks for that fascinating interview - I listened to it all in sections. I'd recommend others to listen too.

I was immediately struck by Mike's incredibly down to earth tone of voice - it was almost as though he was discussing unblocking drains rather than solving problems of spiritual possession - but he certainly gave very complete answers!

Because I think materialist science doesn't understand consciousness at all, I think that the natural explanation of many mental disturbances is very likely to be as Mike claims.

All neuroscience can do is observe brain phenomena (typically neural firing) and correlate that weakly with consciousness phenomena. That simply isn't close to an explanation of consciousness - so why should we accept the modern 'explanation' for what is going on.

For me, a big part of my worldview is based on my conviction that science generally claims to know far more than it really does.

Do you know if Mike has recorded the success rate of his treatments?

David
 
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#3
Thank you David,

I don't think Mike has documented results in more than an anecdotal way, I did try and push him on that. It's certainly a question I could put to the Society for Psychical Research. It is difficult though, as what constitutes success is so subjective.
 
#4
I believe that in some cases spirit influence may be misdiagnosed as mental illness. But I also believe schizophrenia, properly diagnosed, involves multiple symptoms (not just "hallucinations") some of which are better explained as a disease of the nervous system than as spirit possession.

I've posted on this and related subjects frequently and I recently realized one of the reasons I feel this way ... I've had more than one experience where I felt like I was not in my body. At those times my emotional state was nothing like I experience during ordinary consciousness. It felt like a huge weight of emotional baggage was lifted off my shoulders. I felt free, like waking up from a bad dream. It seems to me that the vast majority of emotions I normally experience are coming from the physical body (brain, nervous system, hormones). All the emotions that seem so important in life, desire for success, desire for relationships with other people, anger, fear, are really temporary illusions produced by the brain and body that have nothing to do with our real existence as non-physical conscious entities. I don't mean that we are emotionless in the afterlife or that personality is not preserved in some way in the afterlife, just that the feelings we get hung up on and obsess over during life are often not meaningful to us except as physical organisms. And I think this is supported by a common theme reported by NDErs who say that during their life review they see that the important things in life are not success or failure but how we treat other people. This is also why I think "evil spirit" is not always the best explanation for "evil" people. (Maybe it is sometimes, but not necessarily always).
 
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#5
Thanks for this, Richard - much enjoyed. I agree with David that Mike comes across as very down to earth, and I personally think this enhances his credibility.

Having said that, whether or not what we are dealing with is actual "spirits", or some phenomenon that people like Mike are interpreting as spirits remains for me an open question. It's something like the nuts-and-bolts interpretation of UFOs vs less concrete interpretations.

There's something going on, I think, but maybe our interpretations are influenced by language, factors in perception and enculturation, and so on. There's maybe a little bit of dualism in all of our psyches, though where each of us draws the line may vary. A "spirit" may seem to some people as a mainly conceptual category, to others as almost concrete as tables and chairs. And of course, the ardent materialist will dismiss all such ideas out of hand.
 
#6
Thank you David,

I don't think Mike has documented results in more than an anecdotal way, I did try and push him on that. It's certainly a question I could put to the Society for Psychical Research. It is difficult though, as what constitutes success is so subjective.
@ 32:00 being robust means survival / more memory: it turns out that females are much more likely to survive childbirth compared to men. Hmm.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK242444/
@ 34:00 expectation shapes nde and being duped: steven bancarz goes from millionaire (so he claims) new age guru to bible-christian upon a bad dream where a demon visits him and then the holy spirit of christ visits him.

The failure of spirit guides to rescue lost spirits is surprising? A spirit that won't listen cannot be convinced, that i get.

I look forward to the soulphone, but in the meantime i think its best to be yourself, whatever that is, warts and all. For me, the bible is too violent and contradictory, uses old technology without a security system. New age is cool but you just cannot ascertain the truth. Follow your heart and hope others are helpful. But wouldn't that be true here now?
 
#7
For Mike, we are overwhelmingly (perhaps exclusively) dealing with human spirits, but these humans can pull on the masks of demons if they want to scare us.
Where as Jerry Marzinsky's experience of the spirit realm was quite negative and Clare Broad's was overwhelmingly positive, Mike's is mixed.
Thanks for this fascinating interview, Richard. You have a knack for asking the most important and interesting questions. For what it's worth, I side with Jerry over Mike, based on personal experience, including a long-term (almost twenty years by now) diagnosis of "schizophrenia". It is implausible that the spirits who impose themselves upon me are merely misguided (malevolent) humans. They are too organised, know too much about me, know too well how to (and are too keen to) exploit my personal vulnerabilities, and, most importantly, are too capable of inserting thoughts and beliefs into, and altering, my perception of reality, to be merely human, and I include most importantly in that that the thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions to which they attempt to persuade me are utterly dark, appalling, terrifying, horrifying, and demoralising, beyond that of any merely human mind to conceive, let alone to (know how to) impose upon another human being. And yes, I am aware that there have been some overwhelmingly sick human minds in history, but one has to ask at a certain point: where is the line drawn between human ill will and true evil, and my view with respect to both some of those historical sick human minds as well as the spirits I encounter is that the line has been well and truly crossed. In my view, these entities are something else altogether; from a totally different category of being.
 
#8
medium Mike Williamson
Enjoyed this podcast, thanks to all.

It is rarer than not to find individuals who incarnate with the understanding that physical reality is self-construct. That Life occurs through you, not to you. IMO, this is the fundamental question that needs to be answered by anyone providing spiritual/metaphysical information.

If Life is happenstance, accidental - if one is a victim rather than a creator - then the discussion can move forward with this understanding, this acknowledgment of that point of view.

If Life is seen as a personal responsibility, that synchronicity rules, that creation is determinable...well, that's an entirely different conversation and once these 'ground rules' are understood, then the discussion can move forward with this understanding, this acknowledgment of that point of view.
 
#9
Can I recommend Baldwin's Spirit Releasement Therapy? https://www.google.com/search?q=spi...9j69i57j0l4.3578j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I have been involved in communicating with 'attaching spirits' in a number of instances and I have no doubt soever that such influences are instrumental causing 'mental illness' in many.

I was 'diagnosed' as a paranoid schizophrenic in the early 1970s after seeking psychiatric assistance following an intense series of radical psi experiences. I was told I would have to be on medication for the rest of my life. That was garbage. I needed help to live with the psi phenomena, not suppress it. I didn't have any help so it took me a couple of decades to get things under control. Since the mid 1980s I have been constantly employed in role that require high functioning - aided from a 2 year interlude when I went to the UK and came back homesick.

I rejected the diagnosis because what I wanted was help with living with my sensitivity and not crushing it.I gotta be frank. Taking that pathway is tough. I had to work hard to get stuff under control.

So my POV now is that most so-called mental illness is down to 2 things - trauma or spirit interference. Happy to debate or argue as folk wish.
 
#10
Can I recommend Baldwin's Spirit Releasement Therapy?
I have long had (and read) a copy of his book. Likewise, I read (before that) with great hope Dr Shakuntala Modi's book, Remarkable Healings: A Psychiatrist Discovers Unsuspected Roots of Mental and Physical Illness, which independently echoes/confirms Baldwin's work. I even rang Dr Modi up, and she advised me that I would be best to seek a therapist in Australia, since she would require me to travel to the USA with another responsible adult, and that there was anyway no guarantee that I would be hypnotisable - so, best to test that in my own country first. I have sought an Australian therapist, but to no avail - either they don't respond or they are wary of my psychiatric diagnosis. The one therapist I did manage to convince to try out something along these lines was a past life regression therapist, and I experienced nothing lying on her couch/table that I couldn't have experienced simply daydreaming on my own bed.
 
#12
Richard,

Thanks for that fascinating interview - I listened to it all in sections. I'd recommend others to listen too.

I was immediately struck by Mike's incredibly down to earth tone of voice - it was almost as though he was discussing unblocking drains rather than solving problems of spiritual possession - but he certainly gave very complete answers!

Because I think materialist science doesn't understand consciousness at all, I think that the natural explanation of many mental disturbances is very likely to be as Mike claims.

All neuroscience can do is observe brain phenomena (typically neural firing) and correlate that weakly with consciousness phenomena. That simply isn't close to an explanation of consciousness - so why should we accept the modern 'explanation' for what is going on.

For me, a big part of my worldview is based on my conviction that science generally claims to know far more than it really does.

Do you know if Mike has recorded the success rate of his treatments?

David
agreed. another great interview from Richard.
 
#13
You have a knack for asking the most important and interesting questions.
agreed :)

For what it's worth, I side with Jerry over Mike, based on personal experience, including a long-term (almost twenty years by now) diagnosis of "schizophrenia". It is implausible that the spirits who impose themselves upon me are merely misguided (malevolent) humans. They are too organised, know too much about me, know too well how to (and are too keen to) exploit my personal vulnerabilities, and, most importantly, are too capable of inserting thoughts and beliefs into, and altering, my perception of reality, to be merely human, and I include most importantly in that that the thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions to which they attempt to persuade me are utterly dark, appalling, terrifying, horrifying, and demoralising, beyond that of any merely human mind to conceive, let alone to (know how to) impose upon another human being. And yes, I am aware that there have been some overwhelmingly sick human minds in history, but one has to ask at a certain point: where is the line drawn between human ill will and true evil, and my view with respect to both some of those historical sick human minds as well as the spirits I encounter is that the line has been well and truly crossed. In my view, these entities are something else altogether; from a totally different category of being.
I don't think I saw this contrast the way that you do. It seemed to me like Jerry and Mike's views were very complimentary from a big-picture standpoint -- IE we got to broaden our understanding of mental illness to include malevolent forces in the extended Consciousness Realm.

I guess I took it as a given that the details of their understanding about how these Realms work is almost certainly wrong... but it's super awesome they're at least pointing Us in the right direction.
 
#14
Enjoyed this podcast, thanks to all.

It is rarer than not to find individuals who incarnate with the understanding that physical reality is self-construct. That Life occurs through you, not to you. IMO, this is the fundamental question that needs to be answered by anyone providing spiritual/metaphysical information.

If Life is happenstance, accidental - if one is a victim rather than a creator - then the discussion can move forward with this understanding, this acknowledgment of that point of view.

If Life is seen as a personal responsibility, that synchronicity rules, that creation is determinable...well, that's an entirely different conversation and once these 'ground rules' are understood, then the discussion can move forward with this understanding, this acknowledgment of that point of view.
ok but in this interview Mike is telling the both-and story... and that's the one that seems to true time and time again.

I just completed an interview with dr. Donald Hoffman and I love this one point he made... I was pushing him pretty hard on his math models. he pushed back with-- look if it's ultimately about one Consciousness and The Silence of the one, then I'm ok with that, let's all remain silent, but if we're going to talk, then let's try and be precise.
 
#15
Can I recommend Baldwin's Spirit Releasement Therapy? https://www.google.com/search?q=spi...9j69i57j0l4.3578j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I have been involved in communicating with 'attaching spirits' in a number of instances and I have no doubt soever that such influences are instrumental causing 'mental illness' in many.

I was 'diagnosed' as a paranoid schizophrenic in the early 1970s after seeking psychiatric assistance following an intense series of radical psi experiences. I was told I would have to be on medication for the rest of my life. That was garbage. I needed help to live with the psi phenomena, not suppress it. I didn't have any help so it took me a couple of decades to get things under control. Since the mid 1980s I have been constantly employed in role that require high functioning - aided from a 2 year interlude when I went to the UK and came back homesick.

I rejected the diagnosis because what I wanted was help with living with my sensitivity and not crushing it.I gotta be frank. Taking that pathway is tough. I had to work hard to get stuff under control.

So my POV now is that most so-called mental illness is down to 2 things - trauma or spirit interference. Happy to debate or argue as folk wish.
My sister has schizoaffective disorder. In her case, its anxiety and panic and depression (not paranoia), which then leads to her voices being extremely difficult. And she hears them all the time, like at least every few minutes.

My sister is in the hospital due to a prescription drug overdose. Not sure if it was a suicide attempt but it looks like one. She is expected to make a full recovery if her lung infection resolves itself.

My sister believes her voices can suppress her hearing. She has become deaf in her left ear. But the voices didnt predict it, let alone cause it. An infection did.

I don't know how you overcame your condition but it seems astonishing to me if your description is the truth. How many people with schizophrenia improve without treatment? I havent a clue.
 
#16
I don't think I saw this contrast the way that you do. It seemed to me like Jerry and Mike's views were very complimentary from a big-picture standpoint -- IE we got to broaden our understanding of mental illness to include malevolent forces in the extended Consciousness Realm.
Fair enough, Alex. Different people will receive these interviews differently. For me, the contrast was that whereas Jerry was not shy to cast (at least some of) the spirits interacting with those diagnosed as "schizophrenic" as beyond human; as metaphysically evil, Mike was not - he seemed to think that all of these spirits are merely human, even though for effect they might disguise themselves as demons.

I've just gone back to the notes that I took on Richard's interview with Jerry, and here are some of the powerful resonances that I found with my own experience - resonances which I found lacking in his interview with Mike. These points are verbatim from my notes, which obviously are paraphrasings of the interview:

* The entities dredge up incidents and thoughts from your past and rub them in your face. They know where your emotional wounds are. (Healing the wounds defrays this problem).

* "Fishing": they'll try out thoughts on you to see whether they get an emotional reaction, i.e., "hook" you. (Countering approach: say "That's a lie" to everything they try on you).

* The entities can insert thoughts into your mind. Not just schizophrenics but everybody: every negative thought a person thinks comes from them. e.g. you're walking along and some terrible thought comes into your mind and you think to yourself "I would never do something so awful; where did that thought even *come from*?"

* Low energy levels - drained by psychic entities (energy vampires/parasites) catalysing then feeding off negative energy: fear, guilt, lust, and greed. (Richard's observation about how after training himself out of a negative mindset, testing how it felt to think a negative thought was like a sugar high: felt good initially but then there was a "crash" and a feeling of "I wish I hadn't done that").

* Use every form of deception. Cause perceptual errors, esp. paranoid perceptions.

* Ouija boards and drugs (esp. amphetamines) leading to voice hearing.

The interview with Mike felt tame in comparison. I didn't have so many "Yes! Exactly that! That's my experience too!" moments. Though I want to make clear that I don't resonate with everything that Jerry said, and that I am even skeptical of some of his claims, simply because they are so foreign to my own experience. Maybe I just haven't gone far enough down the road to have had them yet.
 
#17
My sister has schizoaffective disorder. In her case, its anxiety and panic and depression (not paranoia), which then leads to her voices being extremely difficult. And she hears them all the time, like at least every few minutes.

My sister is in the hospital due to a prescription drug overdose. Not sure if it was a suicide attempt but it looks like one. She is expected to make a full recovery if her lung infection resolves itself.

My sister believes her voices can suppress her hearing. She has become deaf in her left ear. But the voices didnt predict it, let alone cause it. An infection did.

I don't know how you overcame your condition but it seems astonishing to me if your description is the truth. How many people with schizophrenia improve without treatment? I havent a clue.
I think the condition is misdiagnosed routinely. The standard psychiatric notion is the there are no such things as spirits and any notion there is is disordered thought. If you accept there are spirits and they can interfere that's a very different model of defining disorder and developing remedies.

That is not to say there are not genuine disorders. In my case I was misdiagnosed. I had real spirits talking to me. My problem was that I freaked out because I didn't understand what was going on. When I was alerted to the reality, I was able to get things under control myself.

You may find this interesting - http://www.hearing-voices.org/
 
#18
That is not to say there are not genuine disorders. In my case I was misdiagnosed. I had real spirits talking to me.
I have been in more psych wards than I care to list over the past two decades, and in that time I have not met anyone who I think has a "genuine" disorder which cannot be explained by "real spirits talking to [and affecting]" that person. The "and affecting" bit is crucial though. If you've simply got spirits talking to you, it's one thing - and I'm not saying it's easy; it can be debilitating - but when you've got them interfering with your cognition, affect, beliefs, and perceptions, that's a whole other thing, which easily gets you a stay in a psych ward, forced medication, and a "diagnosis", and there's not much you can do about it.
 
#19
The western mind has no place for someone who exhibits non ordinary states of mind who may drift into the mental worlds, our culture is very uncomfortable with behavior that is outside of what has been constructed for us. I can certainly see and know how terrifying the prospect of madness is for the house of cards that is the western mind. We fear it and we react to it within the narrow framework of what is slated as normal behavior.

We lost our shamanic past, other cultures who have not would not hospitalize, lock up, separate and medicate. They would take you aside and tell you you are special and be put under the guidance of master shamans benefiting from a lineage of thousands of years of experience in these things. That may be the difference between the shaman and the schizophrenic in some cases. Without understanding and being told you are sick, and having to deal with having one foot in these other mental worlds is terrifying, I truly understand this. It could very well drive someone to the brink, and has done so.

In these cultures you would be told you will be of fundamental importance, you are special, you will be trained. Now think of how our culture treats this. We would rather put you in a place were society does not have to deal with you for it's own sake and it's own fear of these things, making it incurable by definition.

On a biological level there may be involved a process called transmethylation where certain neurotransmitters are converted into psychoactive molecules. This is why certain psychedelics can replicate the effects of schizophrenia so well. Not to say this is all just chemical, I do not think of it this way, just that the physical is a reflection of the mental the same way psychic wounds can manifest as physical afflictions.

Here's a perspective on the Shamanic theory.

WHAT A SHAMAN SEES IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL
https://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/08/22/shaman-sees-mental-hospital/

“Mental disorder, behavioral disorder of all kinds, signal the fact that two obviously incompatible energies have merged into the same field,” says Dr. Somé. These disturbances result when the person does not get assistance in dealing with the presence of the energy from the spirit realm.
Another way to say this, which may make more sense to the Western mind, is that we in the West are not trained in how to deal or even taught to acknowledge the existence of psychic phenomena, the spiritual world. In fact, psychic abilities are denigrated. When energies from the spiritual world emerge in a Western psyche, that individual is completely unequipped to integrate them or even recognize what is happening. The result can be terrifying. Without the proper context for and assistance in dealing with the breakthrough from another level of reality, for all practical purposes, the person is insane. Heavy dosing with anti-psychotic drugs compounds the problem and prevents the integration that could lead to soul development and growth in the individual who has received these energies.
On the mental ward, Dr Somé saw a lot of “beings” hanging around the patients, “entities” that are invisible to most people but that shamans and psychics are able to see. “They were causing the crisis in these people,” he says. It appeared to him that these beings were trying to get the medications and their effects out of the bodies of the people the beings were trying to merge with, and were increasing the patients’ pain in the process. “The beings were acting almost like some kind of excavator in the energy field of people. They were really fierce about that. The people they were doing that to were just screaming and yelling,” he said. He couldn’t stay in that environment and had to leave.
 
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