Schizophrenia, Possession and Freedom - with Jerry Marzinsky

#22
Schizophrenics have certain symptoms that are not typically found in mediums, such as disorganized speech and abnormal motor behavior.

When you are hearing voices or seeing visions, the main way to determine if they are paranormal is if they include verifiable information you would have no normal way of knowing. This is true of hypnogogic hallucinations, mushroom induced hallucinations, hypnosis induced hallucinations, meditation induced hallucinations, or any other method of induction, or of spontaneous perceptions.


Dr Carl Wickland treated mental patients for spirit possession. His wife was a trance medium and participated in the treatments by allowing Dr Wickland to communicate with the possessing entities - whom for the most part were the spirits of deceased humans unable to transition to the afterlife for one reason or another.

Thirty Years Among the Dead by Dr. Carl Wickland
http://galactic.no/rune/spesBoker/Prof Carl Wickland - Thirty Years Among the Dead.pdf
 
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#23
I was tremendously encouraged to learn that, at least in Europe, there seems to be a move towards "listening to voices" in a therapeutic context; it's also interesting that if I heard correctly, it's being raised by voice hearers themselves. That alone should be taken notice of by mental health people; "schizophrenics" themselves evidently aren't devoid of rationalism, and this could be yet another example of how professional dogmatism is being shown up for what it is. They seem to be saying that it doesn't matter what your voices mean, dear patient; they're just a symptom of your madness and we need to eliminate, or at least control them. It's so surprising to me that some professionals would never have considered trying to get at what caused the problem in the first place. I see it as a kind of arrogance; of placing before the patient's own experiences their ingrained prejudices about what is happening.

One thing that strikes me about the reluctance of some voice hearers to discuss what the voices are saying is that it could be a matter of not wanting to face the underlying issues possibly caused by life experiences. I myself don't hear what seem to be external voices, but am very often aware of an internal, extremely critical voice, and trying to analyse where that comes from, I'd have to make myself open to what it's saying; but that's the very thing that I find most painful to do. I can't switch off the negative reactions to self-criticism, and I suppose my way of dealing with my internal voice has habitually been, in one way or another, to block it. Only occasionally, perhaps when in a relaxed frame of mind when awakening, can I examine things with something approaching self-compassion.

I once, for a period of a couple of weeks, had a delightful (spiritual?) experience, one of the characteristics of which was that I was able to see the self-criticism arising in myself and simply laugh at it. All my self-criticism is based on past thoughts or actions seemingly indicative of a pattern or proclivity, and that tends to anchor one unduly in the past as someone beyond redemption. It tends to prevent living in the present and sometimes brings about further thoughts and actions to add to the stack already amassed. I wish I could return to that 2-week state of mind -- be in it permanently, but I can't.

Maybe it's not so much a matter of there being genuine issues to be faced. Maybe the problem is the inability a lot of us have to live in the present, which a lot of of the time isn't actually threatening. It's maybe at least in part about having great difficulty in forgiving (forgetting?) ourselves/others for past transgressions. Problem is, I suppose, that having a conscience can be self-destructive if carried too far. Does it seem too far to go to say that in some instances, maybe some of the problem at least some voice hearers have could be the result of their having a heightened (though not necessarily unjustified) sensitivity to conscience/self-criticism? That under its constant onslaught, they become progressively unable to live in an actual present, and that anything new that happens is interpreted within a framework heavily influenced by the past?
 
#24
Hello everyone,

Here is an interview I've recently conducted with psychotherapist Jerry Marzinsky, about his work with people tormented by hearing abusive voices. Jerry came to believe these were the voices of vampiric entities, generating then feeding off negative human emotion. I ask Jerry what he has ascertained about the nature of these entities, their ability to use deception to scam people, there role in world affairs, and crucially what people can do to be free of them.

Jerry has offered to come back on to answer questions arising from this interview. I have a couple in my mind, I'll post them later, I'd be interested in what other people think first.


https://deepstateconsciousness.podbean.com/

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-deep-state-consciousness-podcast/id1338867921

(Note - the interview was long so I split it into the main body and three bonus clips)
I've listened to half of Jerry Marzinsky video. Theres a bunch of items to chew on. So its possible these voices are external to the patient because according to Jerry. All thoughts are basically just conditioned responses. They are not in essense who/what we are. OK so thats Eastern POV. What occurs is theres an identification with thoughts which creates this modulation in frequency ( im speculating). This contracted energy is a sort of karmic knot whether carnate or discarnate. I'm halfway there on the idea that discarnate parasites may transpose their thoughts into a living person if the frequency is just right.

Once while meditating about a year ago. I heard a distinct voice from within and from my left side tell me that my sister had just passed away. I was in complete silence. Havent seen my sister in years and we currently arent on speaking terms.
That really fits in with Jerry's assertion. When it occurred I wondered if I was being clued into info i couldnt possible know at that time. But no it was a falsehood. I checked with my niece and my sister was fine. That was bizarre. I never heard a voice before and nothing since. It definitely sounded as though it came from outside myself.

Now heres is where Jerry is interesting. All thoughts are outside ourselves. So if all negative thoughts come from somewhere else. Stands to reason we are merely receptacles? So where would thoughts originate? I cant follow that line of logic. Thoughts are responses to sensual stimuli. We harbor desires preferences and thus fears being individualized entities. The thing is I had no fear of my sister passing or even being sick. Shes pretty independent.
 
#25
I used to hear these in college while up late studying - and in to adulthood in the hypnagogic state. I kept a log of what they said for a year or two.
I think that everyone can hear these hypnopompic/hypnagogic expressions (not 'voices' per se), if they get into the frame of mind which allows for their perception. I found generally five classes of them. From my logs:

1. Inane expression: 'There must be solid planks except for the celestial pole.'
2. Coherent but contextless expression: 'If the guy is really that good at mowing, ask him to do my yard too.'
3. Coherent and contextual expression: 'The woman yesterday is hiding her intent, she means ill will. Beware.'
4. Response to a question: 'I cannot advise you on what to do there, all I can encourage is that you guard that the innocent are not hurt in the process.'
5. Direct engagement: 'Oh look who just dropped in to chat, TES. Hello.'

1. 35% of the observations
2. 45% of the observations
3. 15% of the observations
4 & 5. 5% of the observations

However, I can formulate at least 3 different plausible explanations for all 5 types... just rather strange. Never really came to any specific conclusion - save for the notion that: The next question to test is: 'Do they happen at all times and not just during the hypnagogic/hypnopompic zone?'
 
#26
Whatever the truth about voices, I feel certain that a lot could be learned about consciousness from listening to schizophrenics - not just thinking of their voices as symptoms to suppress - though of course that may well be necessary in extreme cases.

I must say, most of the hypnogogic voices I hear are type 1, and what they are saying is often clipped off by the process of my reawakening and ensuring my kindle doesn't fall on the floor!

Still, it does suggest that hearing voices is just part of a continuum with its roots in normal experiences.

David
 
#27
Once while meditating about a year ago. I heard a distinct voice from within and from my left side tell me that my sister had just passed away. I was in complete silence. Havent seen my sister in years and we currently arent on speaking terms.
That really fits in with Jerry's assertion. When it occurred I wondered if I was being clued into info i couldnt possible know at that time. But no it was a falsehood. I checked with my niece and my sister was fine. That was bizarre. I never heard a voice before and nothing since. It definitely sounded as though it came from outside myself.
Do you feel the the info that 'your sister had passed away' was true in any symbolic sense? I ask because once I was woken from sleep by a powerful dream image of a friend (someone I'd been very close to) who came to me and said 'Goodbye Richard'. I wondered if they had died, interestingly I was completely cut off from phone and internet the ext day so couldn't fins out. They weren't, but our connection ended at that time. Wilson Van Dusen writes about how symbolic this part of the mind is, and with you saying you and your sister don't speak, I wondered.
 
#28
I think that everyone can hear these hypnopompic/hypnagogic expressions (not 'voices' per se), if they get into the frame of mind which allows for their perception. I found generally five classes of them. From my logs:

1. Inane expression: 'There must be solid planks except for the celestial pole.'
2. Coherent but contextless expression: 'If the guy is really that good at mowing, ask him to do my yard too.'
3. Coherent and contextual expression: 'The woman yesterday is hiding her intent, she means ill will. Beware.'
4. Response to a question: 'I cannot advise you on what to do there, all I can encourage is that you guard that the innocent are not hurt in the process.'
5. Direct engagement: 'Oh look who just dropped in to chat, TES. Hello.'

1. 35% of the observations
2. 45% of the observations
3. 15% of the observations
4 & 5. 5% of the observations

However, I can formulate at least 3 different plausible explanations for all 5 types... just rather strange. Never really came to any specific conclusion - save for the notion that: The next question to test is: 'Do they happen at all times and not just during the hypnagogic/hypnopompic zone?'

Thanks for your interesting comments. I wonder did you ever ascertain any symbolic meaning to the first two categories. Wilson van Dusen writes about his own bizarre experiences in the hypnagogic (The Natural Depth in Man), and attempts to find meaning in the randomness.
 
#29
Thanks for your interesting comments. I wonder did you ever ascertain any symbolic meaning to the first two categories. Wilson van Dusen writes about his own bizarre experiences in the hypnagogic (The Natural Depth in Man), and attempts to find meaning in the randomness.
Capital question Richard, thanks. Yeah, I found that the brevity of the phrases served to possibly shove a ton of the expressions into categories 1 and 2, possibly artificially. There were times where I drew the distinct impression that a conversation was being conducted between other parties, which did not really actually involve me at all. I likened it to being asleep at a dinner table, and gradually awakening to that setting, ironically as one slipped away from this reality, and hearing the random discussions which were occurring.

On rare occasion I would get 'Well look who just showed up. Hey!' Sometimes as well, just a very loud 'TES!' (my name stated rather emphatically, that actually happened a lot, especially at the start). All the voices were very positive and direct in focus, like at a business lunch. They ended up being 85% male, and most sounding between the ages of 30 and 55. But every now and then I would get an older sounding male or female too. But those rarer acknowledgements in categories 4 & 5 came after I had already formulated the analogy in my mind of sleeping at a dinner table. So I could not tell if these particular and rare expressions were therefore auto-suggestion or not.

In addition, the frequency of types 3 - 5 appeared to increase over time, as I did it more. Now perhaps this is the same mechanism as meditation is founded upon, but I cannot presume that. But certainly were it demonic/nefarious, then any pious person should never go to sleep, because this phenomenon occurred every single time I was entering the sleep state for the entire period of observation. It was not necessary to force it to happen at all. Nor was it a learned skill. Were it evil then, sleep therefore would open one up to the entire realm of such evil under that simpleton view of the cosmos. ;)

Perhaps then meditation, in similar dynamic itself, is less of a developed skill, and more of 'just being there frequently enough to catch some good shit every now and then.' Just like, spotting a UFO is not a 'honed skill' one can develop - one just has to spend enough time outside at night.
 
#30
Do you feel the the info that 'your sister had passed away' was true in any symbolic sense? I ask because once I was woken from sleep by a powerful dream image of a friend (someone I'd been very close to) who came to me and said 'Goodbye Richard'. I wondered if they had died, interestingly I was completely cut off from phone and internet the ext day so couldn't fins out. They weren't, but our connection ended at that time. Wilson Van Dusen writes about how symbolic this part of the mind is, and with you saying you and your sister don't speak, I wondered.
Hi Richard, Well, its difficult to know what the source of this message was. The thing is I had made my peace with my sister in my mind and even sent feelers through my niece, which were not followed through by my sister. Also when I say I was in silence, I perceived all levels quiet but I would not dismiss your speculation.
Also it is an isolated event so in retrospect I have to be suspicious. As far as the experience goes, I heard a voice talk to me which I perceived wasnt the normal thinking me.
Is that how these voices are heard as distinct from the thinker.

I had a lucid dream about a deceased friend who was close earlier in life. He passed away possibly as a suicide. The autopsy was alcohol poisoning. I wondered about him and how does such a person experience the afterlife. I didnt know and was worried does he continue as a troubled soul or is there a release from the Earth dream.

In the dream, I walked into a small parking lot and sat on a wooden curb waiting for someone. When my friend appeared he walked up to me from behind and looked as he did at about 21-23. Wearing no shirt and blue jeans. Longish sort of straight hair. I asked him how was he doing and he replied he was doing fine. I could see by looking at him he was content and very relaxed. The funny thing is when he was younger he told he he didnt like his frizzy hair.
Most all the rare lucid dreams I have are right before I wake up. When I woke up it struck me that I actually had contact with him. Did I conjure this up from my subconscious? Yes its possible, but I dont have to choose. It sits there as an unusual experience for me. But, I dont wonder about John anymore.
 
#31
Maggie Cox wrote -

How sad the book wasn’t finished Richard, has any of it published, perhaps as an article?
It must have been almost twenty five years ago that the work of Professor Marius Romme became known in the UK, workshops were held, and the Hearing Voices Movement began. Marius wrote books together with Sandra Escher, the first, Accepting Voices, was published by the charity Mind who were keen to promote their work. Sandra went on to do ground breaking work with children who heard voices. Their books are worth reading, also one called Hearing Voices by John Watkins. If Jerry does come back to answer more questions I would love to know if their is an equivalent organisation in the USA.

I mentioned that Jerry had said there was no evidence of a chemical imbalance in the brain to a friend but he said that there was in the dopamine system. Of course that doesn’t explain why the voices are for the most part so nasty and tormenting but I would like to hear Jerry’s comments.



Hello Maggie,

I asked Jerry about the book he was co-authoring with William Van Dusen, he's still working on it and releasing some of it soon.

I've just posted the interview on a hearing voices forum. Often talks like this get a mixed reception there. There's divergent views over whether the voices are ultimately malevolent or not, as people report that they change and become positive as they are more integrated. This would suggest a more psychological explanation – but I'm sure you're already familiar with this. I interviewed Dr. Joachim Schnackenberg a while back, he talked through how a malevolent voice can change to benevolent during dialogue.


https://www.podbean.com/site/EpisodeDownload/PB8D5BD28BPNJ

I'll think more about how to approach the chemical imbalance aspect. I didn't go deeply into it as the kind of people who listen to my podcast don't need much convincing on it. Jerry did tell me that drugs can help a person gain enough release from the voices to do some spiritual treatment work, but wouldn't cure a person. It does raise chicken and egg questions of, do people have hear voices because they have lowered dopamine, or do they have lowered dopamine because they hear voices...
Thank you Richard for this wonderful posting, that is the question I asked Alex about his interview with Jan Van Ysslestyne on how the primitive Siberian tribe, the Ulichis, living with spirits on day to day basis. They must encounter dark entities also, how do they deal with them? As a retired pharmacist, I believe people who hear voices have abnormal high dopamine level because most antipsychotics are trying to lower the brain dopamine ( many are antidopaminenergics, some also have antiserotoninergic properties). I am a firm believer of the maxim " Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely ". Power gives people a sense of wellbeing, thus raises their dopamine (the pleasure hormone) level, thus render them vulnerable to the influence of dark entities? I think it's all a matter of balances.
 
#32
Hello everyone,

As a follow up to the interview with Jerry I've spoken to British medium Clare Broad. I posed all the questions to her that Jerry's interview raised about the dangers of spirit contact, in particular the one of impostors. Claire's experience has been overwhelmingly positive and she explains why it is she feels safe in this work.

I have a couple of follow ups planned, I'll post about them soon.


https://deepstateconsciousness.podb...staying-safe-in-mediumship-with-claire-broad/

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-deep-state-consciousness-podcast/id1338867921
 
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