Science & Mysticism of Dreams [Resources]

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by Sciborg_S_Patel, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Psychologist Patrick McNamara on the science of dreams.

    I love that he actually in his study of dreams he's come to realize that something interesting is going on with precognitive dreams that is worth investigating. The commonality of certain recurring characters in one person's nightmares, as well as this nightmare figure sharing characteristics with others is interesting.

    Here he is on why he doesn't think Mind = Brain. He notes some more interesting stuff about dreams at the end of this one.
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  2. Kamarling

    Kamarling Member

    Oct 31, 2013
    Do the other characters in our dreams have minds? Nice question :)
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  3. Troy

    Troy New

    Nov 9, 2013
    Thanks for posting these interviews. McNamara seems like an interesting guy. I also appreciate his open-mindedness.

    Incidentally, his laboratory's neuro-imaging expert, Edward Modestino, used to be at the DOPS at UVA. I met him once, and was Facebook friends with him back when I had an account. He definitely believes in psychic phenomena.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
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  4. My favorite part is where Kuhn keeps trying to insist precognitive dreams are just statistical flukes, and McNamara has to tell him he's wrong again and again. I like Kuhn but it's a little frustrating to hear he wants to understand reality and then jumps ship right when things go off the "acceptable" path.
    Here's some anecdotal stuff about dream sharing. An article by Robert Waggoner who Alex interviewed some time ago.

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  5. billw

    billw New

    Nov 4, 2013
    I agree. He's to be commended for doing the show, and going after these topics, but I get the same feeling--when he starts to jump ship, its like why bother?

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  6. He does this when physicist Christopher Isham discusses dreams as well. He keeps wanting to hear Isham say Big Dreams with compelling narratives are fictions divorced from greater reality, and as I recall Isham tells at least twice it's better to be agnostic about the whole thing.

    What's weird is Kuhn then wants to hear about God and mysticism. But what is mysticism but the Phenomenal breaking into the material? I do give Kuhn some credit for not balking when Isham tells him Jungian Idealism is not incompatible with physics, but his desire to stick to acceptable immaterialism such as Mathematical Platonism makes me think you can only get so far if you limit yourself to academically acceptable versions of reality.
  7. Krippner's Dream Telepathy experiments

    An overview of Krippner's work here.

    Stanley Krippner [with Christopher Ryan] on Joe Rogan Experience

    Great dialogue on a variety of topics. Shamans and medicine plants, environmentalism, psychic powers, history of drug culture and some other interesting stuff. One thing that impressed me was that Krippner managed to stop having claims of dream telepathy be a case for mental disorder.
  8. Meeting in the Dream World: Oneironauticum

  9. Devil in the Room

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  10. Think I got this from the old forum:

    Lucid Dreaming as Metacognition: Implications for Cognitive Science

  11. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

  12. How sex rules our dreams: Gritty, emotional, smelly and dirty: new evidence supports Freud’s long-debunked theory that sex fuels our dreams

  13. The Mysteries of 'Lucid' Dreaming

  14. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

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  15. Activate Lucid Dreaming with Herbal Tea

  16. Dream Telepathy Research Reborn - Guest author Ryan Hurd points out how a remarkable new study suggesting the reality of dream telepathy has built on the foundations of research done decades ago - and how mobile phones may help prove the case further.

  17. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    I asked Fred Aardema about this study. He is familiar with scientific protocol and design and this was his response here

    On a quick glance, several aspects of the methodology were not immediately clear to me, such as who was scoring the dream categories. The control condition is said to involve the same protocol as the original experimental manipulation, but was conducted a year later in a subsequent class, which opens the door for alternative explanations as to why the groups differ. How similar and standardized was the coaching and guiding in these different settings, especially since the experimenter (class instructor) was aware that the photo was a fake one? It invites all sorts of potential biases during interaction with the students. The instructor should have been blind to the nature of the photo in a randomized allocation of participants to the different groups during the same time period.

    It sounds like a fun class project, while having to deal with the limitations of the setting and environment in a practical way, but from a purely scientific perspective it raised some questions in my mind.
    So I think we need to be careful when posting these studies that make specific claims.
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  18. Ah, thanks for that though I don't know if it's fair to classify the research as a "fun class project". That seems a bit dismissive. It's definitely not a study that will be the smoking gun for Psi, but I think it suggests further research into this aspect of the Numinous is warranted.

    I definitely agree, though ideally we can use the forums to carefully check up on this sort of thing. Personally I think the best thing is for people to try this sort of thing themselves and see if anything comes of it, and to use reason when deciding the risk/reward of reliance on Psi in any form. I'm very much against the paternalism of the JREF crowd that wants to keep the public from exploring this sort of thing for themselves.

    I think we're in agreement on all that though. :)
  19. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    I printed and read the study because this is an area of keen interest to me. I had grave reservations after reading it and that is why I asked Fred, who has published numerous studies in clinical psychology. It does appears more like an interesting project than science. I don't have a problem with that. I think it is a great way to expose larger groups of students to possibly become interested in conducting research that is better controlled. It quickly becomes apparent when thinking about doing multiple studies of this size that money and academic support would be critical to carrying out a study that would be properly designed and implemented. Even Fred, who has written what is by far the most well researched book on the OBE in recent years, appears to publish research mostly on topics like OCD and cognition.

    I think it is great that we gather these kinds of studies here on the website and talk about them. But I think, as has been discussed here before, the headlines presented by the press and the actual content of the studies are two entirely different animals. I partially fear that lurkers at the forum may see these studies and take them at face value without due consideration of the actual content of the study.

    I agree that personal exploration with these phenomena is ideal. But even then it is a struggle to determine the objective nature of the experience. There is little agreement about the true nature of the nonphysical universes that are experienced while dreaming or in the out of body state even among serious practitioners.
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  20. "my son is no bigger than a grub. this is why we almost forget him, we don't really believe in him, my dream and i. where does he live? at the moment, between the leaves of a book. this is where he runs the least risk of being lost. inversely, he risks being squashed, if someone puts something on the book. otherwise he rests between the leaves without much difficulty.
    what is the future for such a grub?

    not much hope. he'll vegetate. if he stays this size.

    but then slowly he takes on substance. this is doubtless the result of my efforts: sometimes i take him out, i place him in a bed, or outside, for after all he has a right to the world, and he seems to lean toward life. the danger that someone unaware will crush him remains. little by little he even gains in intelligence. he begins to think, to be happy, to become a real living being.

    obviously, he is very far behind, since he has existed in this form for months. but now he has really decided to catch up. now i spy him running, having gone downstairs, and climbing on dangerous edges. i am worried because he doesn't know what danger is.

    i feel happiness, love for my grub leaving his twilight state. seeing life "crystallize" is such a blessing. suddenly, it's the descent between rough red boulders, in an invisible "taxi" that turns in circles several times in the circus of boulders, as if there were no way out.

    but in fact there is one."
    -Helene Cixous, 'The School of Dreams'

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