Scole Experiments and the future of mediumship studies

[MasterWu]

Hi MW. The reference I made was from Fontana's summary of the sittings he attended at Scole. He didn't specify which photographs he was referring to when he mentioned sealed canisters with marked film held in the hand of a colleague throughout the session, so I'm afraid I don't know.

I think you mean the one of the acetate. IIRC; that one was held firmly, though Gould pointed out it could easily be open and the guy who was holding it actually says in his declaration that he felt ghotsly hands trying to move his hands, so at least some struggle was involved, alledgedly by a spirit but I think it's possible the struggle was a person. I can search the quote if you like.

I don't know if you have read the report from Fontana or his book. Were the proceedings you refer to Fontana's report or a review of his findings? In any event I don't think it matters which photograph he was referring to in my reference to his book - if we accept that his description of the process in that instance was true and correct. It's a while since I read the Scole report have you read it yourself?

Well, It seems to be Fontana's original review. It's at least 400 pages long, and I found it in the online library of Physic research. I'm currently half in the lecture so far.

With regard to your knowledge of magic, Fontana reports that a prominent and experienced magician attended at least one session and pronounced the light phenomena as potentially replicable but not without a lot of equipment and highly improbable in the circumstances of the sitting. Reference to it is contained in Fontana's book.

Well, I do think such a task would require a lot of preparation, but I don't see any reason to rule out this preparation from the beggining. This of course have been eliminated if there was a sort of thermal camera that could catch people on the spot, but for unknown reasons the alledged spirits say the didn't want them. They did say though that with time sitting with day light could be held, but the proyect was terminated before reaching this stage and there weren't further replications.

I'm not saying Scole was highly evidential for those not present, or that the controls could not have been improved, but to simply bat-away Fontana's evidence as weak is to reject the evidence of an eye witness to an event that we were not party too. I find Scole curious but not of great interest to me as it doesn't contain much, if any evidence of survival - which is my own area of interest.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I do think it's interesting, specially because highly complex things did happened, like the 1945 "WAR" Daily Mail newspaper that seem really difficult to fake. However, the controls IMHO were quite lacking, and it bugs me a bit there weren't further replications with more proper methology, like having all the material comming from the investigators, in an investigators house, with security out the door so no one tries to get inside, thermal images and the such.

It all boils down to the question of Fontana's standing as a witness. As for the SPR, whilst I think it is important to test the controls in place, and to consider where fraud might intrude, it is another thing entirely to conclude that fraud occurred based simply on the fact that there may have been a way to commit it. Since I did not know David Fontana, it is very difficult to assess his evidence, although I'd be inclined to consider him honest and the circumstances, although having the potential for fraud, genuine as he reported it. In other words, one must form a personal view of the testimony of Fontana. That is always something of a subjective process.

I don't think Scole was a satisfying report really, though it is certainly curious.

I think we agree on most points then :)

 

[Obiwan]

I think we agree on most points then :)

Yes I think so. It's a question of perspective really.

 

[Lightlover]

The Scole mediums Alan and Diana are still practicing their mediumship, as seen from this link https://www.facebook.com/beyondthescoleexperiment

The Scole Team claimed to be a physical phenomena circle without a physical medium. Alan and Diana claimed to be mental mediums in that circle. The objective facts of their sittings with the investigators indicate IMHO that it was very unlikely for all the phenomena to be fraudulent, though possible, and one has to look at how the physical phenomena occurred. As far as I know, there was no objective survival evidence, but a few not very convincing trance messages took place. The type of phenomena described by Fontana, Ellison and Keen in the SPR Report have all been experienced before in physical circles, The usual survival evidence in physical mediumship provided by Direct Voice, Materialisation, or Transfiguration, was absent. I don't see how Scole can have proved survival of physical death, which is my own interest.

I have copies of all the books about Scole, including the SPR Report Vol 58, and have just joined and come across this interesting thread

 

[Will]

Apparently one of the three psychic experts who critiques the Scole managed to replicate it. They never explain how, but he seem to have convinced two psychic investigators who attended two sittings at Scole, so perhaps it's not that impossible. I'll look at it, since my memory is kind of dusty with respect to that.

Which did they replicate - the crystal or the lights?

 

[chuck.drake]

What is the setup with the crystal and the photography. They seem to be getting some pretty interesting results. Is there a video or something that shows exactly what they are doing with the crystal?

 

[chuck.drake]

Whatever happened to that dude who was setting up his own physical mediumship lab? He came in the last few months of the mind-energy forum, I think. Anyone remember that? He was doing some youtube videos. It would be cool to get a status update from him.

 

[MasterWu]

Which did they replicate - the crystal or the lights?

Some of the phenomenon of the lights. He never explains in detail which ones, though he claims he convinced some of is colleagues who where in the sittings.

 

[MasterWu]

What is the setup with the crystal and the photography. They seem to be getting some pretty interesting results. Is there a video or something that shows exactly what they are doing with the crystal?

There were no video cameras in the Scole Experiments, because the sittings where held in darkness and thermal vision, or candles, or anything like that where forbidden for not well defined reasons.

 

[chuck.drake]

There were no video cameras in the Scole Experiments, because the sittings where held in darkness and thermal vision, or candles, or anything like that where forbidden for not well defined reasons.

I'm talking about the stuff they are publishing here:

https://www.facebook.com/beyondthescoleexperiment

 

[Lightlover]

I haven't seen any attempt to supply or work towards survival evidence in the latest stuff as above, hope to be proved wrong. I don't believe that a strictly scientific repeatable proof of survival is possible, if you look at the prospects for future physical mediumship studies. At some point, you have to accept or reject personal testimonies of those who investigate or take part or perform the mediumship. I accept the scientific evidence which Sir William Crookes presented in "Researches in the phenomena of Spiritualism", published 1874, but even this great and meticulous scientist has been criticised for example faulty protocol, lack of repeatibility and witnesses in his experiments, and personal attacks and slander that he had an affair with the medium Katie Cook.
Crookes had the right approach; follow the facts wherever they lead. In the Researches, he outlines and speculates about many kinds of objective paranormal phenomena he experienced, including the movement of heavy bodies with contact, but without exertion, (which I have experienced myself when working with physical mediums.) Other examples are movements of heavy substances when at a distance from the medium, (which I've also experienced,) levitation of human beings, self-luminous bodies floating round the room, luminous bright lights and sparks, a self-luminous crystalline body placed in his hand by an unknown hand, direct writing by unknown agency on to paper, and phantom forms when he worked with DD Home. Crookes discusses eight theories which might explain the phenomena, and his theory of Psychic Force is included. Crookes was undecided at this time about the source of Psychic Force, but later his work with Katie Cook improved his knowledge and experience and he never withdrew any of his reports about his acceptance of materialisations of spirit beings. I've gone off topic a bit, but much of what Crookes researched has happened many times since, is happening today, and could be done again. I would not however recommend any physical medium to put up with the extremes of scientific testing as done in the past, and still not accepted, with more and more rigurous tests being asked for.
I would like to see an alliance between the survival evidence provided by mental mediums, by NDE's and other paranormal things as on this site, and physical mediums treated with respect and understanding because results are not guaranteed and conditions affect results. I can't see it happening though.

 

[MasterWu]

I'm talking about the stuff they are publishing here:

https://www.facebook.com/beyondthescoleexperiment

I don't know about that. I'm focusing on the Scole Experiments only for now.

 

[Lusikka]

It is time to return to Scole. I have very slowly read a part of The Scole Report and tried to find important details. It was not easy – the book is a mess with too much general text without simply giving essential details in good order. A list of all sittings with the investigators present would have been needed, with all most important happenings and circumstances listed. Then a separate list about the films would have been unnecessary. Now it is very difficult to search important details scattered here and there in the book.

About the LED light on the table, I found only a few short mentions about it:

… a blank tape running inside an amplifier with no microphone. (p. 262)

… or levered open the hasp without breaking the paint seals and substituted a prepared film, was the existence of this occasion of a highly visible red LED on the amplifier. (p. 269)

Gauld has restated his explanation, and opined that even when on other occasions the box was being firmly held by Schnittger, or made visible on the table by the proximity of an LED, he would "hesitate to claim that a skilled operator could not have managed it." (p. 430)

I had a lot of detective work before it became clear how many sittings there were with the LED on the table. They were the three last ones with the authors of the Report present. I wonder why the authors did not understand how important the LED light would have been. Skeptics and skeptical scientists think there was total darkness during the sittings, and that is far from the real situation.

Anybody can see how realistic Gauld was in his criticism by hearing what Walter Schnittger himself says about the situation:

The Scole Experiment: Witness Testimony from Walter and Karin Schnitger

Walter describes how he bought a roll of film, put the unopened film in the locked security box, and held the box in his hands throughout the session, neither putting it on the table nor allowing anyone else to touch it. He then supervised the development procedure. Despite the film he purchased being unopened and in a locked box in Walter's hand for the whole session, there was writing along the length of the film in the form a German poem. The Schnit[t]ger's testimony, and the images from this photographic film, are included in the updated 2006 edition of The Scole Experiment, published by Campion Books.

The Scole experiment was a very convincing case of physical mediumship in my opinion and I recommend that as many people here as possible would purchase the updated book.

 

[Formal Dining Room Set]

It is time to return to Scole. I have very slowly read a part of The Scole Report and tried to find important details. It was not easy – the book is a mess with too much general text without simply giving essential details in good order. A list of all sittings with the investigators present would have been needed, with all most important happenings and circumstances listed. Then a separate list about the films would have been unnecessary. Now it is very difficult to search important details scattered here and there in the book.

About the LED light on the table, I found only a few short mentions about it:



I had a lot of detective work before it became clear how many sittings there were with the LED on the table. They were the three last ones with the authors of the Report present. I wonder why the authors did not understand how important the LED light would have been. Skeptics and skeptical scientists think there was total darkness during the sittings, and that is far from the real situation.

Anybody can see how realistic Gauld was in his criticism by hearing what Walter Schnittger himself says about the situation:

The Scole Experiment: Witness Testimony from Walter and Karin Schnitger

The Scole experiment was a very convincing case of physical mediumship in my opinion and I recommend that as many people here as possible would purchase the updated book.

I would think Sheldrake would've written about his Scole experience somewhere, but tmk the only time he ever mentions it is in that interview on youtube. I'd like to hear more from him on the matter. Maybe I'll bother him with an email. Perhaps he could even be convinced to make a celebrity guest appearance on this thread.

 

[chuck.drake]

I would think Sheldrake would've written about his Scole experience somewhere, but tmk the only time he ever mentions it is in that interview on youtube. I'd like to hear more from him on the matter. Maybe I'll bother him with an email. Perhaps he could even be convinced to make a celebrity guest appearance on this thread.

I'll make a game out of it and hold my breath until Sheldrake arrives. Just give me a nudge when he is on.

 

[MasterWu]

A list of all sittings with the investigators present would have been needed, with all most important happenings and circumstances listed. Then a separate list about the films would have been unnecessary. Now it is very difficult to search important details scattered here and there in the book.

I can post a list of all the sitting, where they were done, which investigators where, and brief relevant data ( like photos and the such) the text I have have such a list, they were around 31 more or less sitting, 4 in other places and a few had all the investigators present.

 

[MasterWu]

Walter describes how he bought a roll of film, put the unopened film in the locked security box, and held the box in his hands throughout the session, neither putting it on the table nor allowing anyone else to touch it. He then supervised the development procedure. Despite the film he purchased being unopened and in a locked box in Walter's hand for the whole session, there was writing along the length of the film in the form a German poem. The Schnit[t]ger's testimony, and the images from this photographic film, are included in the updated 2006 edition of The Scole Experiment, published by Campion Books.

I'm confused. The report I read concerning this, IIRC specifically mentioned Walter had a little struggle with some "ghost hands" that attempted to like take the box away from him, so it may be questionable that he didn't allow anyone else to touch it. This is the relevant part from his testimony in the Preecedings. The film in German was named the "Wie Der Staub" FIlm btw:

The padlock itself was in the palm of my hand, with the thumb holding the left side and the remaining three fingers the right side of the box.
With my hand in this position, Edwin asked me to place the box on the table so that the base rested on the table. My right arm, from hand to elbow, rested on the table while my left hand remained on my left knee. During the several minutes which followed, with my hand in this position, the table vibrated several times, sometimes so strongly that the crystals on the table started to rattle. I felt a light sensation in my arm and leg, like a low voltage, and experienced very frequent touches on my right hand, particularly around the finger tips but also passing over the back of my hand. On one occasion the pullover and shirt on my right arm were pulled up and a finger circled my wrist; then the clothes were pulled down again. It felt as though at least five hands were touching my right arm at the same time, some of them quite powerful, as if they were seeking to pull fingers away from the container (which I did not allow) or to apply force to the container, so that some effort was needed to keep it in place. I once experienced a sensation of coldness as though a piece of ice had been placed on the back of my hand.
Throughout this period I maintained a commentary on my experiences or exchanged information with Edwin, who repeatedly wanted to know how I felt. On one occasion when I said I felt well, I received a 'good boy' pat on my left shoulder. I also received several touches on my knees. After several minutes I was allowed to replace the box on my lap and relax my grip, but the experiment was then repeated, although this time there were fewer touches and no real 'battling' for control of the container, as before. I was then asked to replace the box on my lap, and hold it in both hands until after the sitting, when I retrieved my car key from Hans, took the box to my car to pick up the padlock keys, and returned to make a close examination of the processing machine to ensure that it was empty.

 

[Lusikka]

I can post a list of all the sitting, where they were done, which investigators where, and brief relevant data ( like photos and the such) the text I have have such a list, they were around 31 more or less sitting, 4 in other places and a few had all the investigators present.

Thank you very much. I only wonder what kind of list you have and what its source is. There are two lists in the Report, the list "Summary of film sittings at Scole" with 19 numbered items and the list "Details of all sittings" with 36 items beginning 2nd Oct. 1995 and ending 16th Aug. 1997, plus a note: "There was a special sitting on 28th March 1998, at which Dr Hans Schaer was the sole investigator". In my opinion there were by far too few details on the second list, although all persons attending were there.

 

[chuck.drake]

I'm confused. The report I read concerning this, IIRC specifically mentioned Walter had a little struggle with some "ghost hands" that attempted to like take the box away from him, so it may be questionable that he didn't allow anyone else to touch it. This is the relevant part from his testimony in the Preecedings. The film in German was named the "Wie Der Staub" FIlm btw:

That seems utterly bizarre to me--the physical sensation of hands grabbing at the box and his clothing. But even if the mediums were able to obtain the film was the sitting long enough that they could expose these rolls in some way to achieve the end result? They would have had to have had some mechanism for exposing the film that went beyond a standard camera. Has any such mechanism been discovered? Has anyone tried to duplicate on film the kind of exposures that were achieved by the group?

 

[Lusikka]

I'm confused. The report I read concerning this, IIRC specifically mentioned Walter had a little struggle with some "ghost hands" that attempted to like take the box away from him, so it may be questionable that he didn't allow anyone else to touch it.

Thank you again, you are right. I remembered those touches but did not verify them and write about them. The details in your quote are essentially the same as in the Report. In any case he could hold the box tightly according to the text in the Report: "… as though efforts were being made to wrench his fingers away from the box, or apply such force to it that he had to exert some effort to keep it still and resist the pressures" (p. 242).

 

[Formal Dining Room Set]

That seems utterly bizarre to me--the physical sensation of hands grabbing at the box and his clothing. But even if the mediums were able to obtain the film was the sitting long enough that they could expose these rolls in some way to achieve the end result? They would have had to have had some mechanism for exposing the film that went beyond a standard camera. Has any such mechanism been discovered? Has anyone tried to duplicate on film the kind of exposures that were achieved by the group?

Please, this thread has no time for interesting questions.