Something to make you feel this world is real or not real

Discussion in 'Critical Discussions Among Proponents and Skeptics' started by tarantulanebula, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,362
    Home Page:
    Your feelings are completely understandable... there's a reason that all over the earth stories are told and re-told of the dragon holding captive the virgin and the knight heroically charging in to slay the dragon and save the virgin. It is very deep within a man's nature to want to rescue the helpless "pure" (as he sees her in the early stages of romance) girl from the captivity of the villain.

    There is a danger however in superimposing these archetypes too rigidly over your situation: nothing always fits perfectly and entirely into the archetypal story. She is not as pure and helpless as she seems. You are not as heroic as you seem. The husband is not as much a dragon as he seems. Real life is more complicated than a story and while at times real life is a manifestation of these elements of story, every real life story is unique and constantly changing. Although you see the husband as the dragon holding her captive in an emotionally dismal dank dungeon, perhaps the husband would see the situation as Odysseus returning from a long heroic journey to find his wife surrounded by threatening suitors and is wondering whether she will be faithful to him?

    And let's say the situation eventually progresses and you become the husband... there will be times where you manifest the emotionally cold dragon too and there will be times when she manifests the emotionally cold dragon imprisoning you. There will be many times when you are incapable of fulfilling her emotional needs and then what happens? Does she go searching for her needs elsewhere like she seems to be doing right now? Is this a pattern of behavior with her?

    I'm not trying to tell you what you should do exactly... well okay I am telling you exactly that you should get away from her as long as she is married. The last thing a married person needs to do is take pity on a single lonely young person of the opposite sex and develop an emotional connection to that person. That is unfaithful and unwise. Doesn't matter if the person he/she is married to seems to be a brute. And if a new relationship is founded while still in a marriage that sows some bad seeds of distrust and dishonesty and they will bear bad fruit in the future.

    If she gets divorced of her own free will and without your influence, then go pursue her, but beware that if her husband really is a thoroughly mean heartless brute, then she probably needs about 5 years or more to work out some emotional traumas and she will take that out on you at times. You'll be walking through a minefield and not understand what the hell happened when you step on an emotional bomb connected to her past. And a big part of the problem will be you because there are things about yourself that you had no idea were a problem until she provides the mirror you needed to see yourself truthfully. If her current husband is not really a thoroughly mean heartless brute deserving of divorce, then it casts doubt on her faithfulness: will she divorce on a whim because she doesn't feel her needs are met just precisely the way she wants? And then you'll always feel like you have to compete with others to keep her and that is miserable.

    So ideally you'd give her a few years after divorce for her to figure out who she really is, but I know asking for that much patience is completely unrealistic and she's likely to accept one of the first suitors that comes along as soon as she's single again because she needs emotional connection, so go ahead and be the hero and jump right in there (after divorce; IF there is a divorce).

    I'm mainly trying to dispel the myth that your happiness depends on rescuing and attaining this girl. It is true that if you have a few foundational necessities (mutual attraction, similar intelligence, a few similar interests, not radically different worldviews, commitment, and some tools for dealing with conflict) you can eventually build a happy relationship after years of hard work and self-sacrifice. But the chances are very high if not 100% that within a few days or weeks or months after starting a relationship with her you might find yourself wondering what the hell happened and waffling on whether or not to get out of it now before any more misery is inflicted. But I understand... I was told the same thing, and I said, "What, a challenge?? Challenge accepted!! All the more opportunity to be heroic!" (I am now recently and happily married, but I've been in the same relationship for about 6 years so it took quite a while to get here! And I wouldn't have made it here and we wouldn't have made it through what we've made it through if we didn't have the psychological tools to find happiness independently of circumstances)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
    Laird and tarantulanebula like this.
  2. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676


    Ingredients for this not-so-yummy recipe ;) :
    event: woman friend with husband who treats her in a certain way
    add:
    mental interpretation (1st layer of suffering): this is dreadful
    add:
    emotional reaction (2nd layer of suffering): longing sympathy, suffering love

    mix well, stir:
    result: egoic (unawakened) mind construction. Ready to enjoy!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  3. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676
    IMO: no, it isn't dreadful, it just is. Like rain outside isn't dreadful, it just is. "Dreadful" is how you or others label the situation.

    If she finds herself in a situation that she finds "dreadful", then it seems to me it's her challenge and her path, to either change the situation or accept it.

    And no, I wouldn't be able to tell you're Chinese, only that by your writing that English isn't your first language.
     
    tarantulanebula and Trancestate like this.
  4. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676
    No, perhaps not. Maybe that's part of your spiritual path.
     
    Steve and tarantulanebula like this.
  5. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676
    NDEs and a whole bunch of other afterlife data tell us we're here to grow, which of course is through facing challenges, big and small. Are you saying we should just be here to have all our desires and fears well attended to, like small children, be comfortable all the time, and not grow?

    What if you are the light being who is designing this "experiment" for your own growth? Lots of afterlife data would point that way as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    Steve, tarantulanebula and Typoz like this.
  6. Typoz

    Typoz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,407
    Some people have said they were told in an NDE that the only reason we are here is to learn to love. Not everyone is at the same point in this journey. Perhaps the things we see in other people may be a reflection of what we ourselves might have done in the past, or might do in the future.
     
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  7. SciFiFanatic101

    SciFiFanatic101 New

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    This thread is going cuckoo and a firm answer would be required. Tarantula, if you were in any way familiar with Buddhism which you so readily demonize without adequate investigation, specifically Chan Buddhism, you would recognize that all this claptrap about dark forces, unrequited love etc. is you simply projecting meaning, interpretation and mystical intentionality to a rather banal commonplace encounter between a frustrated male and a neglected wife, there is nothing inherently meaningful about the whole situation, except the one you bring in. My advice, drop the matter completely and get on with your life, that woman is not your responsibility.
     
  8. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,284
    You aren't likely to 'disgust' any us - many of whom are older, and been through all these things.

    Frankly, I doubt if you really disgust her, but women obviously have a problem in the workplace because they are meeting men about work and also potentially about romance - and there are plenty of opportunities for misunderstanding.

    Rather than discuss this in an open thread, I suggest you start a PM and invite anyone you think might be helpful, and see if someone can come up with some good ideas for you.

    David
     
    tarantulanebula and Laird like this.
  9. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,284
    There is absolutely no need to leave the forum, and you haven't caused me any trouble :)

    David
     
    tarantulanebula and Ian Gordon like this.
  10. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    195
    Dear David. I won't. This is a great forum. Wish you all happy.
     
  11. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676
    Dreams are recently bringing back to me the phantoms of old longings and their corresponding love objects that are powerful enough to get me in their grip when I awake, after years of not feeling them, as if suddenly decades of time were wiped away in an instant - just as I've been getting these past months into meditation, cultivating stillness, and feeling a lot more serene. Which has made me think again of tarantulanebula's plight.

    There really is something especially strong and powerful about the "love sickness". Which, perhaps like a lot of manias, can raise all kinds of spiritual questions. Are forms of "insanity", despite their imbalanced nature and destructive potential, manifestations of a spiritual energy that is worth investigating?

    Is Love a Disease?
    And then this:
    Are You a Pathological Lover?
     
  12. oleo

    oleo Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2017
    Messages:
    139
    I seem to be stuck at the better to be a burned out demolished romantic, than never to have loved, stage
     
    tarantulanebula, Ian Gordon and Steve like this.
  13. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676
    I was talking about the love mania as experienced as a youth (starting very, very young, at age 6 to be precise) to someone recently and one of the ways I used to describe it was that it "transfigured the real". (She said she had experienced something similar with certain friendships.) The quality of life became wondrous, alive, enchanted, so that normal, "loveless"-life (if you want to call it love) seemed completely drab and empty afterwards (school, your parents, friends, your activities... except maybe music that connected you vicariously to that quasi-numinous experience) - and you felt therefore that other kids/youths who didn't experience this were like a completely other, alien species.

    Of course that in itself brings the shadow side of it: you become incredibly unhappy and unsatisfied with everything else, or if/when the connection to the love object is threatened or unestablishable. My experience has been that in the long run the pain wins out in duration, though, yes, I wouldn't have not wanted to experience that.

    Makes me think of NDErs (who no doubt, many of them, experience an even more powerful experience) who become depressed when they come back to the limited-consciousness world.
     
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  14. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,676
    I don't know if I ever really completely bought this theory, but it it is, well... beautiful. And I like the idea of not dismissing infatuation with a person's beauty and the kernel of mystical truth it may contain.

     
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  15. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    195
    After so many years honing my English language skill, I still find I'm a toddler when fathoming the beautiful English sentences which are full of meaningful wisdom, thought provoking, and really help make a soul elevation.

    Dear Ian Gordon, your words above are full of fresh nouveau knowledge to me, which ignite my mood which is originally sullen. Sadly I can't chew them and fully understand them tonight.

    Tonight I probably can only chew several key words like "drab".

    The word "drab" totally precisely strikes my heart. Yeah, when I like a female, mignon, tender, feminine, delicate, or hot, voluptuous, sexy, coquettish, I have many unrealizable fantasy about her, some are "vicarious" and with extremely jealouy. I really feel the life path, the fate without having her, is really "drab", like an illusion, not matter how wonderful the other aspects of the life could be.

    Nothing can save me from this "drab" which renders everything as illusory and totally dull.

    But one thing, overthrows my previous yearning into the "illusory mirror world" and makes me yearn for another reality (which is again unrealizable). This thing is that another girl appears in my life.

    Not every girl, pretty or not, can bring me this overthrowing power, she must to "appear very special" to me.

    But funnily, the new girl who could save me from yearning for the previous one, the intensity of her overthrowing power, needs to be expressed and manifested, partially, by how desperate that I felt when I mistakenly thought that there could not be any other girl in any possibility, who could drag me out of this mire. More precisely, it is not "her" or "her motive will" which wishes to help me, but her unbelievable prettiness or loveliness or "special" which invalidates the previous yearning.

    Through my experience, I know one thing, very very intriguing and intricate, that I must to have unmistakably believed that "I was desperate" and "there won't be any girl in any possibility who can replace the position of the previous girl in my heart", could I really sense the full blooming of the power of the new girl's "special" attractiveness to me.

    In other words, my suffering are all "very very necessary", to see my suffering be overwhelmed by some girl more pretty, more wondrous, more miraculously fantastic lovely, more special and spirit igniting.

    Some girls give me a "not that thorough" replacement of the previous yearning. But some, make me feel that the previous yearning, if could ever be realized, would be a burden and a stain, rather than a delightful satisfaction or a collectible souvenir or a memorable reminiscence.

    The pregnant woman I previously like, I recently left my original company and entered a new one, for some other reasons which are very complicated. So I also said bye bye to her, with a very friendly salute of "take care" to each other. She later realized that how earnestly that I helped her in her first three months pregnant status, how many troubles I removed for her, without a selfish purpose.

    And I no longer attach any unsuitable yearning to her, because I met super hyper beauty in this new company, and yeah, not plainly pretty beautiful but makes me feel as if I had yearned this kind of girl for a primordial reflection of time. Bad of me. But I mean no hurt to any girl, never ever. And another super hyper adorable mignon in this new company.

    Sounds funny, really funny, but the power adorable feeling they give me, is not something by my wishful imagination, as if I consciously want them to appear beautiful to me for helping me to forget someone? No, yearning is yearning, it is something which is already itself before you or your animal subconsciousness ever take participate in this affair. My yearning to any girl previously appeared in my life couldn't save me from yearning this super beauty, noble, exquisite, delicate and graceful.

    But without the excruciating suffering I had undergone when I had never had this beauty anywhere in my memories, I couldn't realize the powerfulness of her attraction and "special" subtlety when she enters in my life.

    I only wish I suffered more to find now that I succumb to her power. My bad. I'm a pig, hog, boar, swine. But I'm happy because I know I'm not forever trapped in a single pit. Funnily humorous.
     
    Ian Gordon and Typoz like this.
  16. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    195
    I regret a bit that I obliterated many posts of mine, I originally thought that they disgust and disturb many people.

    But believe me, no matter how funny a person I seem, no matter how good a pig, hog, boar, swine I'm able to be, I mean no evil purpose to another human being who could sense the emotions of a human being. The others save me from the oblivion of completely loneliness, the pretty girls save me from forever trapped with the yearning for the previous pretty girls appeared in my life. I feel grateful to them even if they spit on me. Ha ha.
     
  17. Reece

    Reece Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,255
    Home Page:
    I realize I'm late here, but the conversation, and what I take was said in the erased parts made me think of something that happened to me a long time ago:

    I was on a train and noticed a girl with very white (untanned) skin, red hair, glasses, and, of all things, camo pants on . . . kind of just my type. I went into the bar part of the train and got a drink. She came in shortly after and I started talking to her. We talked till she got off in Fresno. Unbelievably, I still remember her name. While I certainly didn't obsess over her, she stuck with me: I liked her. This was in August, I believe. The following May I met a girl with red hair, white (untanned) skin, who wore glasses and had camo pants that she would sometimes wear (not because she hunted or moved in circles of those that do, but I suppose as a somewhat quirky thing to do). We ended up together for five years.

    I think a key element to life growing those subconsciously planted seeds is the letting go part, which in this case I did without effort.

    It's also striking that normally when these strange planned or unplanned manifestations occur, it can take a while before you even remember the original seed planting event (or prayer or whatever).

    Edit: what I'm partially trying to say is that, while the strangeness of my example is rather extreme, life will often give us what we want in a slightly different package than we initially desired . . . I don't really think that's all too rare at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

Share This Page