Stanton Friedman on Jacques Vallee and UFOs/Consciousness |367|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Stanton Friedman on Jacques Vallee and UFOs/Consciousness |367|
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    UFO Researcher Stanton Friedman on Jacques Vallee and alien consciousness technology. [​IMG]
    photo by: Skeptiko
    (Mark Zuckerberg, CEO Facebook) Now, when we talk about augmented reality, there are three important use cases that we think about…

    That’s Facebook’s CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, spreading Facebook’s Brave-New-World-Gospel re the merging of consciousness and computing. He’s actually taking his foot off the pedal a little bit with this group of developers. If you search for some of his more freewheeling discussions he straight-up talks about mind reading, telepathy and even mind control. It’s all part of Facebook’s glorious future. And, you know what? He might be right.

    Skeptiko has always been about controversial science and spirituality related to consciousness, but if we’re going to be honest, we have to accept that technology has a role to play in cutting through some of the philosophical bullshit that sometimes dominates these discussions. I mean, when mind reading is another app you can download on your iPhone 20, some of the “spiritual” questions surrounding consciousness will be answered.

    Same goes for UFOs. The main question that’s dominated the UFO field for the last 10 years is whether we should remain focused on nuts-and-bolts technology related questions/issues, or shift the focus to experiences and experiencers. Jacques Vallee has been a leading thinker in this area linking modern UFO encounters extended consciousness phenomena. I’ve covered this topic in my recent interview with him and my interview with Robbie Graham. But since we had not heard from anyone in the nuts-and-bolts camp, I decided to turn to Stanton Friedman for this episode.

    Stan and I talk about a number of things. One of the things we talk about is this technology angle as it relates to the “consciousness stuff” that shows up in the UFO phenomenon:

    Alex Tsakiris: One thing I want to throw out there and get your opinion on, because again, I come at this whole thing from a totally different perspective, my main interest is consciousness science. We study near-death experience, psi phenomenon. Last time I had you on I thought you did a marvelous job of connecting us to the Betty and Barney Hill case and how that leads right into some of this extended consciousness stuff, that again, no one ever gives you credit for, they always say, “Stan’s the nuts and bolts, saucer guy and that’s all he knows,” and that hasn’t been my experience. Let’s leave that aside for a minute and I’ll tell you, when I hear somebody talk about UFOs and they lead with, and lean too heavily on the technology component, I’m always a little bit leery. I mean, we’re talking about information that would completely change our understanding of who we are, where we came from, why we’re here and then you’re going to lead with, “Oh, and it’s going to be free energy for your car.” I mean, it may be free energy, but the social implications are so much bigger, I do always feel like I’m being distracted, and I don’t know how you feel about that.

    Stan Friedman: Yes, I agree with you. I agree with you, there are a lot of distractions out there. I keep telling people, when I have a chance, that I’m convinced that the aliens know a heck of a lot more about the crazy stuff, if you will, near-death experiences and mental telepathy, you know, stuff like that, that the rest of the scientific community doesn’t want to deal with in general. There are a few guys that have got guts, but not many. I’m convinced that there’s a lot we don’t know and part of it is because it’s our unwillingness to admit that we don’t know. We’re smart guys, you know, we know what’s going on, don’t we? Frequently the answer is no.

    I don’t think we spend enough time looking at the non-conventional aspect of UFO technology, if you will. Look, how does a guy go through a wall, go through a window without breaking the glass? I don’t know how to do those things and that’s weird and it’s important. It tells us that there’s a lot going on that we don’t know about, but in a sense, considering the primitive society we have on this planet. I mean, let’s not forget, we killed 15 million people during World War II. We destroyed 1700 cities. Could anybody say we’re nice guys? I mean, who would want us out there?

    So, I’m convinced that evil use could be made of a lot of this, not just the technology, [unclear 00:05:38] right-angled turns and all that sort of stuff, but of these other things, mental control of others, that scares me. Who’s going to rule the roost here, if we give them half a chance.

    Stick around, my interview with UFO researcher, Stan Friedman, is up next on Skeptiko.
     
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  2. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature.

    If you believe, as I do, that the physical universe (and the afterlife realm) including physical laws, physical constants, matter, and initial conditions,, was designed and created by mind, i.e. it is literally a thought, then the question of consciousness vs technology is meaningless. As far as research goes, I think investigators should research whatever interests them whether it is technology, consciousness, or anything else.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  3. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions at the end of the interview:

    Should we be looking at the consciousness link to UFOs for more of a technology perspective? Is this yet another thing that the aliens have figured out how to, and that we can't quite do yet -- but once we get there, it's all just a matter of engineering more or less? So NDEs, working in the astral realm of psychedelics, telepathy, etc., all that stuff -- maybe it's all just technology?
     
  4. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    ...or maybe it's all just consciousness? Technology, after all, just like anything else that's invented, has to have consciousness behind it.
     
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  5. Steve

    Steve Member

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    "So, I’m convinced that evil use could be made of a lot of this, not just the technology, [unclear 00:23:44] right-angled turns and all that sort of stuff, but of these other things, mental control of others, that scares me. Who’s going to rule the roost here, if we give them half a chance."

    Have you ever been frustrated when your mother or older people generally seem to feel that "you shouldn't question Doctors"?

    This was the feeling I had when listening to this interview. I found it interesting but bits of it were rather depressing. I'm not trying to be insulting or negative but listening to him was like listening to an older person, with older ideas. It's not personal, I love my mum in spite of her ideas. They are quite common ideas though. From his quote above, who does he think might be 'evil'? He made the point that he is in favour of secrecy and even duplicity, he seems to have a lot of respect for security. I really believe that bits of his own thinking fit nicely into the pieces that show themselves as 'evil'.

    I realise that it's not that simple though. One of the sayings that I appreciate is 'The road to hell is paved with good intention'.

    Stan strikes me as someone who's really quite impressed by human 'progress'. '18 years before refuelling an aircraft carrier' 'we have detonated 2000 nukes'. He may truly believe that aliens are wary of us - yeah it is possible but I think that as advanced as our technology may appear to be, it is relatively primitive. Maybe I'm wrong in that what's primitive is our behaviour rather than our technology. I think they're main concern is for us.

    I believe Near Death Experience's, Angels, Ghosts, Magic etc etc is all part of consciousness, and I feel sure that 'the aliens' know a hell of a lot more than we do, but at this point in our consciousness they're more concerned with helping us not blowing up our planet or killing all it's amazing creatures, including ourselves.

    What needs to change is our fear. Can we put our money where our mouths are and say "to hell with this idiocy!" If we start acting like grown ups maybe we'd get treated like grown ups. If those of us on the forum truly believe that consciousness continues, surely that should change our thinking?

    A question that I've often wanted to ask as an ex aviator:

    If UFOs are so advanced, why the hell do they crash relatively often?

    Thanks Stan and Alex. ;;/?
     
  6. If terrorists, or a rogue state, put a faster than light drive on a missile, would there be any way to defend against it?

    If a free energy generator was used to power a bomb, would there be any limit to its power?
     
  7. K9!

    K9! New

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    I really enjoyed this interview. I think Stan was pushed out of his comfort zone at times, and he responded very graciously. It was nice to hear him talk about different things than we are used to hearing him talk about. It's funny how things have come full circle with people like Richard Doty. The Tom Delonge thing really seems like a repeat of what was done to Paul Bennewitz. I guess if you wait long enough, everyone forgets what happened the first time and you can start again.
     
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  8. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I think it is easy to get mesmerised by technology - it is very convenient for conversations like this, but fetishising it is a bit like people in the time of Caxton fetishising paper, ink, and printing presses! Both technologies helped to hook up conscious entities - us - and I see no real evidence that consciousness will merge with modern technology (or indeed with paper).
    I agree SF was far too keen on the tools of war, and the idea that we could fight off such aliens is really crazy.
    And why are their experiments so crude? I mean even we could take a DNA sample from someone without them even being aware.

    It almost makes you wonder if there are more than one set of phenomena getting lumped together as UFO's.

    David
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  9. ghost

    ghost New

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    This model leads to consciousness. Start with nothingness. Then imagine that there are dynamic cracks and fissure in the nothingness. The cracks decay into particles. The cracks themselves are a series of line segments. When they are described with a differential equation, the solution to the differential equation yields the properties of a physical universe including its physics constants. The vast number of different kinds of particles, when properly organized, can open fissures and supply useful particles.
     
  10. Laird

    Laird Member

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    I'm sorry if this is overly harsh. I mean no harm, I just can't help but point this out:

    OK.

    No, sorry, that makes no sense. Cracks and fissures can only occur to/in something, not nothingness. Nothingness has no properties, least of all (that which could lead to) cracks and fissures.
     
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  11. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    No need to apologise! I think any science of consciousness needs facts and tentative preliminary theories before grand theories - whether they be verbal or highly mathematical. Primitive sciences - and I'd call consciousness science very primitive - can't advance with grand overarching theories that aren't firmly anchored in facts.

    That is why I'd far rather science accept Dualism as the tentative minimal extension to its materialist base that can begin to understand and categorise anomalous conscious phenomena. The ultimate theory might be Idealism, but that theory is far harder to apply at this point.

    Also, Ghost, theories have to make sense! I think physics has lead the way into theories that don't make sense, but in their case this is hidden by a thick blanket of mathematics. We should not try to emulate that approach!

    David
     
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  12. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    You are not alone. All Stanton Friedman interviews are this way.

    Friedman is like when you go see some 79 year-old Rock-n-Roller perform at the local theater. They are mechanically going through the motions to put on the show. But... No new songs. No new stage effects. Same joke you heard them tell about [Insert City Name] seven years ago.

    Pull up a Friedman interview from the 1980's. It will sound just like this one. Same catch phrases. Same jokes. Same old ideas. Same old Cold War philosophies.
     
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  13. ghost

    ghost New

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    Cracks and fissures in the nothingness is the way the idea presented to me. But the cracks and fissures are supposed to break down geometrically into many line segments at various angles. Everything that a universe can potentially be is self contained in the fissure itself. Everything including physics constants, the kinds of particles it can emit, etc. The idea of something coming from nothing is an unavoidable scientific fact called the big bang. All I'm doing is inserting a mechanism to explain the physics constants and some other properties.

    To recap, the shape of the crack is a series of line segments that can include branching. The shape accounts for all physics information and physics constants. Then, it decays into one or more particles.
     
  14. MRandl

    MRandl Member

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    Alex, I enjoyed this interview with Mr. Friedman. He is old but because he has remained open minded … he also brings a certain wisdom to the table. He recognizes there is a significant consciousness factor related to the UFO phenomenon. Im not sure he yet recognizes the primacy of consciousness … but it wouldn’t surprise me that he gets there before too long.

    Relative to your question … should we be looking for the linkage of consciousness to UFOs through the lens of technology … I believe the answer is yes. One of the drivers of Skeptiko that I very much appreciate is your banging on the door of science to not limit ideas … because of an assumption that materialism defines reality and therefore puts physicalist constraints on the practice of science itself. As an alternative, the practice of science, when understanding consciousness as fundamental, would support more of an empirical approach to the study of UFOs. Technology, as in finding methods that facilitate the consciousness/UFO connection could be openly explored (and therefore supported). This has already happened to some extent with the study of OBEs. For example, Robert Monroe developed hemisync, a method which has assisted many with these experiences.

    On the other hand, how far can we take a technology related approach to UFOs? Can we ever control consciousness in some manner which provides us with the manipulation of space/time while somehow retaining our material identities? I believe the reality of UFOs have already answered that question.
     
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  15. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    i jut dont care about the ufo topic
     
  16. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Ghost makes perfect sense! :) ...Although perhaps he places too much seriousness in his metaphors.

    Reality is just a transcendental metaphor that has become too blissfully or painfully specific to describe with words.

    Ghost merely retold the Garden of Eden story with a different metaphor.

    You will never find an explanation for everything (and nothing) that doesn't involve poetry.

    Consciousness is pattern creation. Metaphor - similar differences and different similars - is the fabric of pattern.

    Nothing - along with one and infinity - is one of the nonsensical transcendentals that supports everything else that "makes sense".

    My opinion: aliens are the creation of consciousness peering into the void. A perfectly sensible explanation for them will emerge when one is needed, but only after the curious (like those of us here) spend a lot of time staring into the void.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  17. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Well that is an interesting point of view:) However imagine if people started taking it seriously, and asking how long it took the cracks in nothingness to appear, and exactly how many there were, and what sort of research could confirm this hypothesis!

    As a one-off it can be amusing, or even be useful as a metaphor, but I suppose it is up to Ghost to say if he really meant it in a purely metaphorical way.

    David
     
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  18. ghost

    ghost New

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    HI David, Hurmanetar,
    I designed this physics construct with several ideas in mind.
    1. I love the idea that grey aliens, spirits, ghosts, and all the other things that ppl experience, I love the idea that they might exist, but they would need there own support system, not our brain and not the spacetime continuum.
    2. Any kind of a plane of consciousness or GOD or an afterlife needs a support system that looks like a brain, but is presently undetectable. So I used the idea of rolled up universes that can unroll or unfurl with a little bit of energy. At the extreme, they can unroll so far that they transmute or change into a big bang. If they fall short, they break up into particles which can become building blocks. If you'v ever looked at organic chemistry, amazing and miraculous stuff happens that leads to biochemistry. I am hijacking neuroscience and saying that a plane of consciousness or an infinite brain can form on its own. But it's not made of carbon, it's made of a large Elemental table of the primary universe. Ours is a secondary universe.
    3. Rolled up universes that unfurl also look like cracks in a nothingness, also look like lightning, also look like thoughts in a brain. The properties of a universe that partially unfurls contains within it the set of physics constants.
    4. Theoretically, equipment that is constructed in the primary universe could create a small superluminal spacetime to be used for superluminal travel or creating particles and fields.
    5. The fissures supercede conservation of energy by adding a net zero of energy. The +E evolves into particles and fields. The -E evolves into a precursor to gravity and then various forms of gravity.

    This is a lot to consider, and very general, but requires nothing, net zero to start, and can evolve naturally into a spirit world, physical universe, and alien technology.
     
  19. Alex

    Alex New

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    great point. I think remote viewing is another example where they used "science" to remove noise from the signal.

    I with you on this too. Isn't precognition time travel?
     
  20. ghost

    ghost New

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    Advantages for describing a fissure as a series of line segments include
    1. It acts like a circuit in the primary space allowing it to transmit energy.
    2. It can be unrolled (assuming that spacetime can be rolled up).
    3. The properties of the line segments will determine the physics constants.
    4. The segments can radiate a field in primary space which acts like a region of spacetime with different physics in our normal space.
     

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