Steve Briggs, Took His MBA to the Himalayan Yogis And Discovered… |452|

#41
I think there’s a lot of truth in this. There are an infinite number of potential afterlife states depending upon ones “vibration” and even largely dependent upon their beliefs and biases. I think the reincarnation data/evidence is very convincing to anybody who looks at it with an open mind. I’m not sure how many of us only live one life on Earth. Presumably some do? Who knows. I’d prefer to think that I’m not coming back.

The question of what happens to us after we die is a tricky one. It really does seem that we can come back to Earth, move to other Earth like realms or dimensions, or move to “higher” more ethereal and thought responsive realms. Based on my view of the evidence it also seems that some, through guilt, are quite capable of setting up their own personal private (temporary) Hell.

What we also need to consider is our apparent multidimensional nature. William Buhlman, certain afterlife researchers, and even Yogis like Yogananda are adamant that we are multidimensional beings. Graham Nichols (prominent OBEr) has claimed that he has encountered his dead father during his astral travels (this is not uncommon btw) who seems to be living a pretty normal physical life which appears roughly as ours does here on Earth, but that he has ALSO reincarnated here on Earth, in Russia and is now a boy. Who knows if that particular story is true, he seems quite credible to me, but it’s just one story representative of a fairly common narrative amongst like minded folk in the field and amongst many experiencers.

If you spend time on astral projection forums or listen to some of the more prominent OBErs, what they say often is that they are often projected into another realm, as themselves, same body and everything, and that they feel that they are plugging into a life that they are already living on another dimension but that our local selves HERE are completely unaware of. I’m not really sure how any of this plays into the question of what happens to us after death, but it needs to be considered, Even if we can currently make little sense of it. Some of the best channeled information (IMO) says a lot of this stuff as well. The Seth Material is always talking about our multidimensional selves. I take Channeled material
with a grain of salt but when it’s profoundly intelligent, sensical, and confirmatory, I take notice.

This video is only 4 minutes but it’s an important and brief summation.

Great summary! Buhlman packs a lot into 2 1/2 minutes. If I recall, after an earlier interview with Alex, I proposed in the discussion thread that humanity's DNA has been dramatically dumbed down.

The following comes from my notes after conversations with my guide. "The star seeding of the human race occurred billions of years ago,although the results of that original seeding didn’t mature into what you know as human beings until later. The star seeding including about 1000 strands of DNA were woven into 12 helixes. This perfect DNA structure was sabotaged, reducing the human DNA to one double helix, effectively unplugging mankind from its inherent capabilities to manifest supernatural powers such as telepathy and levitation. Master geneticists created this star seeding and skilled alien geneticists sabotaged it, but keep in mind that the those whot are disrupting the earth represent a small percentage of the civilization they come from.
 
#42
Good for Buhlman. He puts a lot into 2 1/2 minutes. If I recall, after a previous interview with Alex, I proposed an idea that humanity's DNA has been dumbed down. This process, according to my guide, effectively stripped people of awareness that we are multi-dimensional beings.
That theory has been around. I heard the version that we were originally 12 strands and stripped of 10 strands. (WoW, I posted independent of having read the edit you added to your above post... so the 12 strand DNA thing is definitely "out there.")

The sad thing is seeing all the exploitation of the vulnerable by the unscrupulous which are so prevalent, especially in western society of today who make fairy tales out of the idea.

I like your point about how we answer the question for ourselves about extended reality... the three ways you mentioned. The personal approach, accessing a long standing tradition and the scientific approach.

Well, even today, too much of the scientific community is in "paradigm lockdown" (unwittingly and, IMO, in many cases wittingly).

The problem with long standing traditions IMO is access to the true, metaphysical truths seem too often blocked by strong dogmatic type "protective covering" - an example is all the forms of Christianity and then, if you are lucky, you can get to the Christian contemplative/mystical information but it took me dozens of years to break through the dogma but also, you get the "compromised" leader types that combine charisma and a huge vulnerability towards exploiting others (especially sexually) and this problem has persisted in a well publicized way for decades and likely has been a part of the history of humanity since humans emerged.

So we are left with the personal approach. And the challenge there IMO is that one must strip away all the programming and then, strip away all the personal issues (suppressed traumas, past life issues, external entity interference) just to have a relatively sovereign self left to do honest (to oneself) exploration so the individual can start to get a true clue on "extended reality/consciousness!"

That's what I have done and trust me, I have so, so much more work on both (programming and personal issues) and what saddens me is only in the last few years have I really experienced breakthroughs in exploration, am 62 and on "the down slope" of this particular lifetime. Uuurgggh! Just when it started to become truly wonderful (the explorations into extended consciousness I mean).

What a challenge this thing I call "Earth Game" (a sub-game within the Grand Game) - especially at these times.

ADDED: a quick search and up popped this (perhaps) relevant link -
https://healersofthelight.com/understanding-12-strands-holographic-dna/
 
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#43
That theory has been around. I heard the version that we were originally 12 strands and stripped of 10 strands. (WoW, I posted independent of having read the edit you added to your above post... so the 12 strand DNA thing is definitely "out there.")

The sad thing is seeing all the exploitation of the vulnerable by the unscrupulous which are so prevalent, especially in western society of today who make fairy tales out of the idea.

I like your point about how we answer the question for ourselves about extended reality... the three ways you mentioned. The personal approach, accessing a long standing tradition and the scientific approach.

Well, even today, too much of the scientific community is in "paradigm lockdown" (unwittingly and, IMO, in many cases wittingly).

The problem with long standing traditions IMO is access to the true, metaphysical truths seem too often blocked by strong dogmatic type "protective covering" - an example is all the forms of Christianity and then, if you are lucky, you can get to the Christian contemplative/mystical information but it took me dozens of years to break through the dogma but also, you get the "compromised" leader types that combine charisma and a huge vulnerability towards exploiting others (especially sexually) and this problem has persisted in a well publicized way for decades and likely has been a part of the history of humanity since humans emerged.

So we are left with the personal approach. And the challenge there IMO is that one must strip away all the programming and then, strip away all the personal issues (suppressed traumas, past life issues, external entity interference) just to have a relatively sovereign self left to do honest (to oneself) exploration so the individual can start to get a true clue on "extended reality/consciousness!"

That's what I have done and trust me, I have so, so much more work on both (programming and personal issues) and what saddens me is only in the last few years have I really experienced breakthroughs in exploration, am 62 and on "the down slope" of this particular lifetime. Uuurgggh! Just when it started to become truly wonderful (the explorations into extended consciousness I mean).

What a challenge this thing I call "Earth Game" (a sub-game within the Grand Game) - especially at these times.
Chester, I hope Alex has interviewed you...
 
L

lonevoice

#44
The following is a description of an encounter with evil from 10 years back...

First the back story: Like many demons, the one in question entered the earth’s plane through a human. In her previous life, this human, who was egotistical and hungry for spiritual power, but not wisdom, performed a beneficial act, hoping to earn a boon. When she died, her soul was indeed offered the reward of a spiritual boon in her next life. The soul chose spiritually enhanced sight. However, the soul was warned that if its incarnation was egotistical about its power, the boon would be revoked.

To avoid this, the soul attempted to suppress its ego by taking birth in a spiritual community. However, the soul did so out of fear of losing its power, not the desire to evolve, and because of that, it didn’t work. The girl remained egotistical about her power. She was contacted by the higher beings who had given her the boon, and they warned her that she was breaking her vow. Afraid of losing her power, she used her boon to see into a demonic plane and contact a demon. She asked the demon to save her from losing her power. The demon said that if she allowed the demon to possess her, it would ensure that she didn’t lose her power, and that she would, in fact, gain more. She accepted, and the demon possessed her, entering the human plane in the process.

As forewarned, the girl’s boon was revoked. The demon attempted to prevent this, not to keep its word, but to protect the power that it now controlled, but instead worsened it. Instead of her sight returning to that of a normal human, the girl went blind. As a result, she committed suicide.

The demon left the girl’s corpse. There happened to be a higher plane master who agreed to destroy the demon. The demon fled from the town, but was overtaken by the master. The demon phased out of this plane, but the master followed it. The demon had taken on the some of the traits of the girl who it possessed, as always happens when a demon enters this plane through a physical being, and the master took advantage of this, targeting the demon’s eyes, which were both its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. The demon was blinded. Before the master could finish the demon off, the demon phased even further out to a demonic plane where the master was unwilling to follow. However, in order to do this, the demon cut itself off from this plane. It would have to find another physical being to possess in order to return.

Where we got involved: The blind demon sensed an opportunity in Fairfield (our community) and came to it. Spiritual communities are good places for demons to search for possession victims since misguided people with spiritual power are often more open to possession than spiritually ignorant people. The demon had just arrived and came into contact with a girl who was ‘high’ on drugs. Since the girl’s consciousness was not in contact with the demon, only her rampant power, the demon tricked her into inviting it into her. However, the demon could not penetrate her aura.

The demon remained latched to the girl’s aura, seeking a way in, but before it found one, the demon was exorcised from the girl. The blind demon cannot find the girl again, but could try again if the girl takes drugs again.
So many thanks, Steve. I was intrigued by the claim that demons can only enter this plane through possessing a human. My questions:
~Was your Ascended Master guide the source of this claim?
~Is it consistent with saying demons search for victims in spiritual communities? Wouldn't that imply they are already in this plane?
~Is this an Eastern approach? My only research has been in the area of Western demonology.
~My own experience, which involves paranormal abilities to some extent, is that demons can possess animals as well as humans. I had a Mastiff who had bloodlust, who killed several animals who were part of my animal-assisted therapy ranch as well as my personal beloved animal family, including a goat right in front of me. I had to put him down, and I cut off ALL future communication with him after he killed the goat and was then euthanized. My paranormal insight was that he was a demon, sent to torment me by other "senior" demons (who are gone from my life now.) Their motivation for having temporarily entered my life and my partner's was our light warrior activities, including having exposed their real identities--they were posing as "Star Nations" to a Yahoo group of 4000 members owned by a man with high level credentials (psychology, hypnotherapy et al) and bamboozled by them.) The sacred purpose of their presence in our lives was to give us firsthand experience with demons to make our counter acivities-primarily education-- more authentic.) Now, as before, my study of Evil derives solely from research, including the experience of others such as your niece.

Thank you in advance!
 
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#45
So many thanks, Steve. I was intrigued by the claim that demons can only enter this plane through possessing a human.

Lonevoice, here are 3 quotes from the girl/demon story:

1) Like many demons, the one in question entered the earth’s plane through a human.
2) The demon had taken on the some of the traits of the girl who it possessed, as always happens when a demon enters this plane through a physical being
3) It would have to find another physical being to possess in order to return.


I don't think it's true that a demon must enter via a human being. I hope the above quotes didn't imply that. The 3rd quote suggests it but I remember the Ascended Master was referring to the blinded demon. I do not think that its true in general.

~Was your Ascended Master guide the source of this claim?

He was, but I feel my AM guide would go with the first quote. He would certainly not limit a demon's ability to enter our dimension.

~Is it consistent with saying demons search for victims in spiritual communities?

I cannot say whether demons seek out spiritual communities more than other communities. In the Vedic literature, there are examples of asuras/demons targeting yagyas/homas and other Vedic rituals.

I think the point here is that people doing spiritual practices such as meditation are activating their chakras and subtle bodies, and are therefore more attractive as opposed to someone who has no spiritual tendency or is totally shut down. That said, drunken stupors or overdosing on drugs also attracts dark beings, not necessarily for full soul possession, but they can cause problems.

Wouldn't that imply they are already in this plane?

Yes, but as I said, I think they can enter the earth plane in various ways. There are Tantric rituals to invoke them, for example. Even positive rituals can go wrong for some reason, creating unwanted results. According Vedic literature, the boundary separating human and demon dimensions is guarded by a race of beings called, nagas. Nagas are serpent beings. If the boundary is compromised, ie, an opening is created for whatever reason, then access is possible. Warfare is another example of a way demons could enter the human realm. Whenever there is great suffering or disharmony, lower beings are attracted.

In the late 90's I visited a Tibetan Buddhist community. When I arrived I discovered that an elaborate Buddhist ritual had been performed over many days, but for some reason the ritual went badly. As a result a tear or hole developed in the dimensional fabric which made it possible for low beings to enter the town where I was staying. Many people fell ill as a result. It took some time for the tear to mend and some of the people who performed the ritual perished.

In locations where intense violence or suffering has occurred, dark beings may take up residence. Examples like Dachau or Amritsar where the Indian army massacred 370+ people... this sort of thing can result in low beings taking up residence.

I remember my guru instructing his hosts to drive him to a certain place on the coast of England. The people resisted, saying it was a horrible place (major sewage flowing into the sea), but Maharishi insisted. When they arrived at the spot, Maharishi immediately sat and meditated for a long time. When he finished, he told his hosts that a demon lived there and it needed to go.

~Is this an Eastern approach?

Eastern systems such as Buddhism, Hinduism, and others have a lot to say about demons. They categorize them and give graphic descriptions of their physical features. These religions recommend rituals to ward them off, pundits perform exorcisms, that sort of thing. Probably some overlap with Christianity.

~My own experience, which involves paranormal abilities to some extent, is that demons can possess animals as well as humans.

I agree with this...

My paranormal insight was that he was a demon, sent to torment me by other "senior" demons (who are gone from my life now.) Their motivation for having temporarily entered my life and my partner's was our light warrior activities, including having exposed their real identities--they were posing as "Star Nations" to a Yahoo group of 4000 members owned by a man with high level credentials (psychology, hypnotherapy et al) and bamboozled by them.)

Demons do NOT like their affairs interfered with. They are extremely possessive and will go to great lengths to protect what they perceive to be theirs. They play by their rules, not ours. Basically anything goes. Disrupting the life of a light-filled soul would be extremely satisfying to certain demons.

SORRY ABOUT THE CONTRADICTION ON HOW DEMONS ENTER OUR WORLD. Hope this clarifies... Please consider my points as opinions.
 
L

lonevoice

#46
Steve, it was "my bad." I am normally meticulous verbally but for some reason I misinterpreted what you said. Perhaps it was because I had only very recently "come out" for the first time about my experiences with demons (in other Skeptiko threads) and I was nervous. Please know that your thoughtful post has removed much of my nervousness. In particular what you said about my experience jived with the personal commentary on it by a spiritual adviser (a long time monk at Mount Athos) and by a demonology mentor who is a medium. Somehow hearing your commentary has helped me to turn a corner and move forward with my research & writing with much more peace of mind.

The entirety of your post was immensely educative, and I thank you many times over.
 
#47
Steve, it was "my bad." I am normally meticulous verbally but for some reason I misinterpreted what you said. Perhaps it was because I had only very recently "come out" for the first time about my experiences with demons (in other Skeptiko threads) and I was nervous. Please know that your thoughtful post has removed much of my nervousness. In particular what you said about my experience jived with the personal commentary on it by a spiritual adviser (a long time monk at Mount Athos) and by a demonology mentor who is a medium. Somehow hearing your commentary has helped me to turn a corner and move forward with my research & writing with much more peace of mind.

The entirety of your post was immensely educative, and I thank you many times over.
lonevoice, I applaud and appreciate your sharing and your openness. I read all your posts and with care. Thank you...

I am grappling with my own consideration that I have been "dealing with" an external "third party" where the entry point (this lifetime) occurred when I was six years old.

If you are interested, here's my blog post of what I experienced (when I was six) - http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/2016/04/my-anomalous-experience-when-i-was-six.html

Note that even today, I am still not convinced of any theory of the many theories I have explored as to what actually happened, why it happened and what was (is?) behind it. This includes every consultation I have obtained regarding the experience from purportedly "knowledgeable" people.
 
#48
Steve, it was "my bad." I am normally meticulous verbally but for some reason I misinterpreted what you said. Perhaps it was because I had only very recently "come out" for the first time about my experiences with demons (in other Skeptiko threads) and I was nervous. Please know that your thoughtful post has removed much of my nervousness. In particular what you said about my experience jived with the personal commentary on it by a spiritual adviser (a long time monk at Mount Athos) and by a demonology mentor who is a medium. Somehow hearing your commentary has helped me to turn a corner and move forward with my research & writing with much more peace of mind.

The entirety of your post was immensely educative, and I thank you many times over.
I understand and am very happy to know that our conversation is helping bring greater clarity.
 

Alex

Administrator
#49
The intellect is a wonderful tool. Without it, where would we be? That said, the intellect is not equipped to venture very far into the realm of extended consciousness. Human beings have other and better faculties for this purpose, but they need to be developed. The rishi Patanjali wrote a wonderful treaty (The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali) explaining how to develop these higher faculties. My guru taught his students an advanced meditation designed to utilize Patanjali's teachings which I've practiced for some 40+ years.

When another being is struggling, out of compassion, one shifts their attention to that person in an effort to help. In the case of the girl/demon, one might argue that I took my eye off the ball ("secret of the ascent is to always look up") depending on how one interprets Claire Broad's advice. But I view helping other souls as part of the ascent and possibly the result of being fully committed to keeping one's eye on the ball.

Alex, How does this story "ask us to follow without question'? David Bailey asked if would elaborate on my experience and I shared a simple story. I go out of my way not to impose on anyone. If I have, I apologize because I truly believe that denying a person their free will is evil.
hey Steve... I thought your story was terrific. I found it meaningful and significant to me personally. I value your honesty and integrity... and I see you was a true seeker on the path.

I'm sure Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was a really cool guy with really nifty insights about all those old Indian books. there is no doubt he had an enormous positive impact many people's lives through teaching meditation in the West.

But by all accounts he was complex / conflicted human being who said one thing and did another... he went on a spiritual power trip that led to abuse and disillusionment and unnecessary suffering. now, sure he didn't torture and rape little kids like thousands of Catholic priests did, but I think we all understand that abuse at the hands of someone who's sought the position of being a spiritual leader is a special kind of betrayal.

I guess that's why I can't really wrap my head around why so many in the TM community can't fully own this. You and Rick Archer have bravely stepped out there and owned the truth... hats off to both of you for that... but I guess I'm still sensitive to the potential damage of cultish spirituality and those who seek to minimize it (again, not saying you did that Steve).

I just think we have to be super clear about the dangers/risks of being a "follower."

so, back to my "ask us to follow without question." that comment was poorly phrased and I apologize. moreover, you have way, way, way more experience with these extend realms.

at the same time, I'm not sure "don't ever go near it" is always the best for everyone at all times. maybe we're all in the soup more than we realize. maybe others can offer different perspectives.


My working hypothesis -- God doesn't like crowds... and he doesn't like cults either :)
 

Alex

Administrator
#50
There is a significant risk involved in exploring darker dimensions. I highly discourage going there out of curiosity, to fulfill a wish, solicit support, or for any other reason. Dark beings will not bother a person unless that person has a history with the being, invites contact, or opens their awareness to the realm.
thx. this is consist with everything I've heard... multiple sources.
 

Alex

Administrator
#51
Chester, I thank you for your insights. Allow me to give a more complete definition of evil, as I see it. Evil is denying a person their right to free will so long as that person has not compromised another individual's free will.
great stuff. thx guys.

I keep coming back to the phrase "soul crushing"... it's evil when yr act has this intent.
 
#52
telling me to kill myself to save the world.
Y'know, Christian monastic writings are stuffed full of stories involving monks being tricked into taking their own lives (usually by throwing themselves from a height) by dark entities. I'd always assumed this was an extension of the desert temptation narrative and was primarily metaphorical. But maybe it's much more literal than that.

Interestingly, the writings also claim that the number one defense against this kind of deception is a discernment attained through the cultivation of humility.

thx Steve... but not sure I totally buy this as it raises more questions than it answers. it asks us to follow without question.
"when you believe in things you don't understand you suffer" -- Stevie Wonder

In Papua New Guinea's Sorcery Wars, A Peacemaker Takes On Her Toughest Case
NPR|29 days ago
I was rather surprised to learn that there was a sorcery killing in Pennsylvania in 1928.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehmeyer's_Hollow#Murder_of_Nelson_Rehmeyer

Admittedly, these days, it is nice to know that one can dabble with astrology or tarot cards and is unlikely to be murdered by a mob. Living in a materialist society has its advantages, for sure.
 
#53
great stuff. thx guys.

I keep coming back to the phrase "soul crushing"... it's evil when yr act has this intent.
Alex, the term 'intent' is the key. David mentioned that things get convoluted as we delve into my 'evil' definition. We can add 'intent' to the mix. I think it's a key element.
hey Steve... I thought your story was terrific. I found it meaningful and significant to me personally. I value your honesty and integrity... and I see you was a true seeker on the path.

I'm sure Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was a really cool guy with really nifty insights about all those old Indian books. there is no doubt he had an enormous positive impact many people's lives through teaching meditation in the West.

But by all accounts he was complex / conflicted human being who said one thing and did another... he went on a spiritual power trip that led to abuse and disillusionment and unnecessary suffering. now, sure he didn't torture and rape little kids like thousands of Catholic priests did, but I think we all understand that abuse at the hands of someone who's sought the position of being a spiritual leader is a special kind of betrayal.

I guess that's why I can't really wrap my head around why so many in the TM community can't fully own this. You and Rick Archer have bravely stepped out there and owned the truth... hats off to both of you for that... but I guess I'm still sensitive to the potential damage of cultish spirituality and those who seek to minimize it (again, not saying you did that Steve).

I just think we have to be super clear about the dangers/risks of being a "follower."

so, back to my "ask us to follow without question." that comment was poorly phrased and I apologize. moreover, you have way, way, way more experience with these extend realms.

at the same time, I'm not sure "don't ever go near it" is always the best for everyone at all times. maybe we're all in the soup more than we realize. maybe others can offer different perspectives.


My working hypothesis -- God doesn't like crowds... and he doesn't like cults either :)

Alex, I don't need to know the reason why you're so cynical about gurus, but I am curious. My mentioning Maharishi in any positive light seems to trigger you. I accept that gurus, like the rest of us, are far from perfect.

Some of the most respected spiritual teachers in the world honored him. Amma referred to Maharishi as 'the finest teacher of meditation in the last 1,000 years'. Sai Maa was flying to Australia when she intuited his passing. After landing in Sydney, she boarded the next flight to Delhi in order to pay her respects.

My Ascended Master guide said this: “All the gods honor Maharishi. The dark forces attacked him. They wounded him again and again, but he kept on fighting. His body was full of arrows. He was mortally wounded many times. The dark forces attacked his mind too, but he never gave up, he refused to surrender. The attack was on his physical body as well as the subtle levels. It was a relentless attack because Maharishi led the army fighting the dark side.

“There was one tiny man, in a flapping silk robe, running without any weapon directly into the stronghold of the dark forces. Like charging right into Saran's camp in the Lord of the Rings. With incredible courage, Maharishi faced the dark side.

“If there was any shortcoming in Maharishi on a personal level, he was too sure of himself when he came out of the Himalayas. He was very young when he came to the States. The dark side attacked his personal flaws relentlessly. They appealed to his tendency to be attracted to women and wealth. These were the flaws that overcame him. Nonetheless, all the gods honor Maharishi.”

The Delhi physician that cared for Maharishi after the poisoning shook his head and said, "no one should have survived that."

Lower your expectations a bit, Alex. There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
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#54
Alex, I don't need to know the reason why you're so cynical about gurus, but I am curious. My mentioning Maharishi in any positive light seems to trigger you.
I just think we have to be super clear about the dangers/risks of being a "follower."
Alex, I don't think that its just certain gurus that you are cynical of, but even more so the organizations [religions] that they start. I don't have any personal experience or connection with Maharishi. In addition to the flaws that have been mentioned above, the other problem that I have with the TM organization is that it is yet another claim to be "the only true path", at least in the eyes of many TM followers, which I imagine came from Maharishi himself. (Not that Steve sees it in this light, and I do actually have an interest in leaning more about TM practice.) There are some remarkable similarities between the TM organization and the Mormon church, which I am very familiar with. We probably hear mostly about these egoic organizations because they are the only ones that survive. Many of the flaws that we have mentioned above are also their greatest organizational strengths. The organizations that have tremendous growth have to have a unique cause, a strong leader, and a lot of loyal followers in order to survive and flourish, and pass on the wisdom that they do contain. That may be an unfortunate paradox, but its a true one.

You are right Alex that we have to be clear about the dangers/risks of being a follower. The problem is, that we are all followers to some extent, at least initially. We are either religious or non-religious followers, spiritual or secular, conservative or liberal, scientific or anti-science, etc. I am not denying Alex that "cultish" spiritual/religious organizations have a unique ability to suck people in and hold onto them, thereby limiting their viewpoint. I just think that religions are microcosms of life in general. When you look closely, there really is no "safe harbor" that is free from all bias and controlling influence.

My experience is that gurus and religions are like the rest of life. We have to sort out the good from the bad in them. Through reading Steve's books and having discussions with him, I would have to say that Steve would not be who he is without Maharishi. Not just in spiritual philosophy and meditative practice, but Steve would never have had the life-changing experiences in India without Maharishi. (i.e. Maharishi has been a VERY positive influence in Steve's life.) But Alex, I will have to admit that for every one person who is able to benefit from a spiritual pathway and then transcend it, there are 99 or 999 or more who may benefit from the path, but also get stuck in it, thereby limiting their growth, or even sending them down an evil path. But then again, people get stuck in being Democrats or Republicans, get stuck in scientific materialism, hedonistic secularism, cultural or racial supremacy, etc, etc. Every background in life has it's gold and it's dross in varying degrees. I believe that we have to learn to see and accept both the good and bad in organizations and pathways in order to transcend them.
 
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Alex

Administrator
#56
If you spend time on astral projection forums or listen to some of the more prominent OBErs, what they say often is that they are often projected into another realm, as themselves, same body and everything, and that they feel that they are plugging into a life that they are already living on another dimension but that our local selves HERE are completely unaware of. I’m not really sure how any of this plays into the question of what happens to us after death, but it needs to be considered, Even if we can currently make little sense of it. Some of the best channeled information (IMO) says a lot of this stuff as well. The Seth Material is always talking about our multidimensional selves. I take Channeled material
with a grain of salt but when it’s profoundly intelligent, sensical, and confirmatory, I take notice.
I wonder how this might play into the disassociative identity disorder stuff we've been talkin about... as below so above... is"splitting"and creating different ego states somehow similar to traveling down different dimensions / timelines?
 
#57
Alex, I don't think that its just certain gurus that you are cynical of, but even more so the organizations [religions] that they start. I don't have any personal experience or connection with Maharishi. In addition to the flaws that have been mentioned above, the other problem that I have with the TM organization is that it is yet another claim to be "the only true path", at least in the eyes of many TM followers, which I imagine came from Maharishi himself. (Not that Steve sees it in this light, and I do actually have an interest in leaning more about TM practice.) There are some remarkable similarities between the TM organization and the Mormon church, which I am very familiar with. We probably hear mostly about these egoic organizations because they are the only ones that survive. Many of the flaws that we have mentioned above are also their greatest organizational strengths. The organizations that have tremendous growth have to have a unique cause, a strong leader, and a lot of loyal followers in order to survive and flourish, and pass on the wisdom that they do contain. That may be an unfortunate paradox, but its a true one.

You are right Alex that we have to be clear about the dangers/risks of being a follower. The problem is, that we are all followers to some extent, at least initially. We are either religious or non-religious followers, spiritual or secular, conservative or liberal, scientific or anti-science, etc. I am not denying Alex that "cultish" spiritual/religious organizations have a unique ability to suck people in and hold onto them, thereby limiting their viewpoint. I just think that religions are microcosms of life in general. When you look closely, there really is no "safe harbor" that is free from all bias and controlling influence.

My experience is that gurus and religions are like the rest of life. We have to sort out the good from the bad in them. Through reading Steve's books and having discussions with him, I would have to say that Steve would not be who he is without Maharishi. Not just in spiritual philosophy and meditative practice, but Steve would never have had the life-changing experiences in India without Maharishi. (i.e. Maharishi has been a VERY positive influence in Steve's life.) But Alex, I will have to admit that for every one person who is able to benefit from a spiritual pathway and then transcend it, there are 99 or 999 or more who may benefit from the path, but also get stuck in it, thereby limiting their growth, or even sending them down an evil path. But then again, people get stuck in being Democrats or Republicans, get stuck in scientific materialism, hedonistic secularism, cultural or racial supremacy, etc, etc. Every background in life has it's gold and it's dross in varying degrees. I believe that we have to learn to see and accept both the good and bad in organizations and pathways in order to transcend them.
Alex, I don't think that its just certain gurus that you are cynical of, but even more so the organizations [religions] that they start. I don't have any personal experience or connection with Maharishi. In addition to the flaws that have been mentioned above, the other problem that I have with the TM organization is that it is yet another claim to be "the only true path", at least in the eyes of many TM followers, which I imagine came from Maharishi himself. (Not that Steve sees it in this light, and I do actually have an interest in leaning more about TM practice.) There are some remarkable similarities between the TM organization and the Mormon church, which I am very familiar with. We probably hear mostly about these egoic organizations because they are the only ones that survive. Many of the flaws that we have mentioned above are also their greatest organizational strengths. The organizations that have tremendous growth have to have a unique cause, a strong leader, and a lot of loyal followers in order to survive and flourish, and pass on the wisdom that they do contain. That may be an unfortunate paradox, but its a true one.

You are right Alex that we have to be clear about the dangers/risks of being a follower. The problem is, that we are all followers to some extent, at least initially. We are either religious or non-religious followers, spiritual or secular, conservative or liberal, scientific or anti-science, etc. I am not denying Alex that "cultish" spiritual/religious organizations have a unique ability to suck people in and hold onto them, thereby limiting their viewpoint. I just think that religions are microcosms of life in general. When you look closely, there really is no "safe harbor" that is free from all bias and controlling influence.

My experience is that gurus and religions are like the rest of life. We have to sort out the good from the bad in them. Through reading Steve's books and having discussions with him, I would have to say that Steve would not be who he is without Maharishi. Not just in spiritual philosophy and meditative practice, but Steve would never have had the life-changing experiences in India without Maharishi. (i.e. Maharishi has been a VERY positive influence in Steve's life.) But Alex, I will have to admit that for every one person who is able to benefit from a spiritual pathway and then transcend it, there are 99 or 999 or more who may benefit from the path, but also get stuck in it, thereby limiting their growth, or even sending them down an evil path. But then again, people get stuck in being Democrats or Republicans, get stuck in scientific materialism, hedonistic secularism, cultural or racial supremacy, etc, etc. Every background in life has it's gold and it's dross in varying degrees. I believe that we have to learn to see and accept both the good and bad in organizations and pathways in order to transcend them.

Alex wrote: I just think we have to be super clear about the dangers/risks of being a "follower."

In the bigger picture, the dangers/risks of being a leader may be far greater than those of a follower. Again and again, the ego trips leaders up.

Who is it that teaches us to speak? Generally our mothers do and mothers are considered 'the first guru' in the Indian system.

As Ben mentioned, 'we are all followers to some extent.' I learned a lot from watching my older brother play sports and my dad asked me to teach my little sister how to hit a 2 hand backhand. The human game is all about teaching and learning, cradle to grave.

I get into little spats with my TM friends all the time about TM being 'the only true path.' Just the other day, i was playing golf with a guy and we got into a conversation about how COVID has shut down the mosques, synagogues, churches, whirling dervishes, TM domes, etc. I suggested that people of all spiritual backgrounds work together as one to raise collective consciousness. My golf buddy replied, 'but they don't do TM.' SAD
 
#58
I wonder how this might play into the disassociative identity disorder stuff we've been talkin about... as below so above... is"splitting"and creating different ego states somehow similar to traveling down different dimensions / timelines?
It would seem obvious that it is at least experientially different... and it seems as a conscious agent (individualized consciousness), isn't it ultimately all about experience?

It also seems the former isn't known by what you call, "ordinary consciousness," and that the latter can be known at the level of one's ordinary consciousness as well as other levels like the subtle dream state and perhaps, as well, (I would say likely and by so, so many on this lovely planet today) at deeper levels of consciousness while not being recognized by the ordinary conscious level of being.
 
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Alex

Administrator
#59
Alex, I don't need to know the reason why you're so cynical about gurus, but I am curious.
that's a kind of "when did you stop beating your wife question" but I'll respond anyway. my spiritual journey it's extremely uneventful compared to yours. I've read lots of books... done a lot of "trainings"... met a few people... walked with tick nat han... hugged with Amma... and then I've tried a lot of different stuff.

so the bottom line is that my cynicism is the sum total of my experience... especially my Skeptiko experience. especially my experience of pushing people and seeing how they react to a little bit of friendly pressure. I'm not a huge fan of mike tyson because he raped those girls but he did have a good quote, " everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

so my cynicism is a result of kevin annette's battle with than evil church and state for 20 years. my cynicism is anneke lucas who was sold by her mother into a satanic ritual abuse cult in belgium. my cynicism is Ian mcCormick who believes his jesus centered nde experience means everyone else's is satanic. I could go on and on but you get my point.


My mentioning Maharishi in any positive light seems to trigger you. I accept that gurus, like the rest of us, are far from perfect.
another loaded statement :) I think my post said that he was an amazing teacher of meditation. but to inject another quotation into the mix... going from football coach bill parcells " you are what your record says you are"

anyone who takes an honest looking into this guy's career will be hard-pressed look past the deep, crazy cult leader stuff swirling around him.
from: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...ht-The-Giggling-Guru-shameless-old-fraud.html


Lennon was right. The Giggling Guru was a shameless old fraud
By DAVID JONES

Last updated at 22:43 06 February 2008




To his millions of dream-eyed devotees, he was the ultimate spiritual leader; a masterful guru whose meditation techniques could induce a state of euphoric bliss, and even teach them to defy gravity by "yogic flying".


To a sneering John Lennon, he was a money-grubbing, sex-obsessed fraud who cynically abused his influence over The Beatles and many other awed celebrities who worshipped, cross-legged, at his painted feet during the Flower Power era.
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So which one was the real Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? Was he the enlightened saviour he always proclaimed himself to be?
Or the woollybearded, flower-bedecked fraud portrayed in Lennon's acid lyrics?

It's a debate that has lingered like the smell of burning incense for 40 years, ever since the Fab Four perplexed their fans by swopping flairs and kipper ties for flowing robes and love-beads.
And now that the Indian mystic's mortality has been proved with news of his death, at the approximate age of 91 (no one can be sure, for he dismissed birthdays as "an irrelevance"), it will doubtless resurface.

However, as the last writer to have been granted an audience with the enigmatic Maharishi - and, indeed, the only journalist to have been invited inside the strange "alternative nation" where he lived his final years in reclusion - I know who I tend to believe.

My day with the man who probably did more than anyone else to make traditional Eastern beliefs fashionable in the West came in March 2006, when I visited the so- called Global Country of World Peace, in Vlodrop, southeastern Holland.
It must rank as the most bizarre day of my 30-year career.

Before I take you behind the high walls of this closely-guarded community, however, it's worth remembering how an obscure Indian civil servant's son rose to control a vast spiritual fiefdom, with its own ministers and laws, and even its own currency, the Raam.

An empire, moreover, which became hugely lucrative thanks to the one quality the Maharishi never liked to publicise - his remarkable business acumen - aligned to an utterly shameless willingness to put aside his principles and embrace the detested "material world" when it suited his own ends.


He spent his early years in Jabalpur, where he was born, probably in 1917 or 1918.
Back then his name was plain Mahesh Prasad Varma, and, though his family were devout Hindus, there was nothing to suggest that he might become a world-renowned leader.


A bright boy, he gained a maths and physics degree - a qualification he would use with great ingenuity later in life, when he impressed (and invariably baffled) his followers by "explaining" the ability of meditation to change people's consciousness in complex scientific terminology.


By all accounts, his life changed course radically in his late 20s, when he met his great mentor - a "swami" or Indian religious teacher, called Guru Dev.
He joined the ageing holy man on a lengthy retreat in the Himalayas, where he was introduced to a new form of meditation.
When he emerged, he called himself "Maharishi".
Unlike Guru Dev, who was content to wander, barefooted and in ragged clothes, from village to village and subsist on the simple charity of those he taught, his pupil developed more grandiose ideas.

Whether because he thought it his duty to spread his newfound enlightenment to as many people as possible, as he later claimed, or because he had an eye to the main chance, in 1958 he left India on his first "global tour".


For obvious reasons, though, he based himself in Los Angeles.
In those days, California was a Mecca for the Beat Generation, and among these forerunners of the hippies, a plausible, exotic young guru preaching love and peace - and offering a way of achieving a "natural high" without the need for drugs - quickly became a cult hero.






Soon his popularity spread among stressed business executives seeking an alternative to psychiatry, whose methods he scorned.
"You must learn to take life less seriously and to laugh," he told them, chuckling as if he were privy to some sublime cosmic joke.
"The highest state is laughter."


Along with the adulation came money, of course.
At first, the Maharishi asked for nothing and, like his mentor Guru Dev, he lived off donations, albeit more substantial amounts than he would have received in India.
As his renown grew, however, he began to charge "tuition fees", realising his affluent audience could easily afford to pay for his words of wisdom.
With a wink and a giggle, followers were also encouraged to contribute towards his "expenses": printing costs, transport rental, the hiring of halls and so on.


In 1961, one rich woman blithely wrote him a cheque for $100,000: her contribution to a new ashram he wished to build in India.
Another wealthy couple, accountant Roland Olson and his publicist wife Helen, gave him free use of a plush house in Hollywood.

The "Giggling Guru" appeared uninterested in these vast sums and never discussed or handled money himself, leaving it to his disciples.
However, the burgeoning bank balance can hardly have escaped his all-seeing gaze.

By the "beautiful summer" of 1967, when he famously came to the attention of The Beatles, the Maharishi boasted a considerable following, including celebrities such as Mike Love of the Beach Boys (who became a teacher of Transcendental Meditation), folk singer Donovan, Mia Farrow, and even the tough-guy actor Clint Eastwood.


Impressed after hearing him speak in London a few days earlier, on August 25, John, Paul, George and Ringo fatefully boarded a train from Paddington to Bangor, where they were to spend the Bank Holiday weekend on retreat with him.

Disaster struck midway through the seminar, when news came through that Brian Epstein, The Beatles' manager, had died from a drugs overdose.
The group, who relied on him to orchestrate every aspect of their lives, were devastated, but the Maharishi treated his death as a minor mishap.


"He was sort of saying, 'Look, forget it! Be happy!'" remarked Lennon later, adding caustically: "F*****g idiot."

At the time The Beatles couldn't see through such insensitive behaviour.
It seemed only to confirm one of their new guru's favourite phrases (which became the title of a George Harrison LP): "All things must pass."

Desperate for an alternative to the increasingly crazy, pressure-cooker world they inhabited, and seeking a new guiding spirit with Epstein's passing, they became deeply immersed in the Maharishi's teaching.

So, the following February, 1968, the four beaming, flower-garlanded band-members flew to India, where they were to spend several months deepening their knowledge of Transcendental Meditation at his ashram in Rishikesh.
They were accompanied by their respective partners and joined by a veritable array of mantra-chanting stars, including Farrow and her sister, Prudence.

For the first few weeks, this intended spiritual awakening went well enough, but Ringo was first to depart - he hated Indian food and his wife, Maureen, couldn't bear the insects.

After five weeks, amid mounting mutterings that the Maharishi was a publicity-seeker with an unhealthy interest in meditating in close proximity to the Farrow sisters, Paul McCartney followed the drummer back to London.
That left John and George, always the most receptive (or gullible?) among the guru's pupils.


In an episode now etched in Beatle folklore, however, they, too, packed their bags in disgust after Mia Farrow fled the Maharishi's cave in tears, claiming that the supposedly celibate swami had grabbed her in his hairy arms and tried to make advances towards her.


"Boys! Boys! What's wrong? Why are you leaving?" the Maharishi is said to have shouted after them.

"If you're so f*****g cosmic, you'll know," came Lennon's withering reply.

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Thus ended The Beatles' brief dalliance with the Maharishi. Or, at least, so it was widely believed.

The Maharishi always disputed this highly unedifying version of events.
In his one public pronouncement on the matter, he insisted that they were "too unstable and weren't prepared to end their Beatledom".


This stand-off rumbled on for almost four decades, casting a huge question-mark over the Maharishi's credibility and the entire TM movement.


But then, two years ago, the guru's story appeared to be given credence by the self-help guru Deepak Chopra (one of the Maharishi's former disciples).
The Maharishi had actually ordered The Beatles to leave the ashram, Chopra said, because they refused to stop taking drugs.

Chopra had just made his pronouncement when, quite unexpectedly, I was given the opportunity to hear the truth from the horse's mouth.
The Maharishi had not granted an interview since 1992, but after days of negotiations with his moony-eyed media chief, Bob Roth, I was summoned to the Global Country of World Peace.

No passport was required as I "left Holland" and drove to the Giggling Guru's kingdom, but it really was like entering another state; or rather, a parallel universe.

Inside the spacious compound, all the men (I saw no women) wore identical fawn- coloured suits and disconcerting, far-away smiles.
They were polite enough, but the place seemed utterly devoid of warmth.

However, Roth, a reconstructed San Francisco hippie in his 50s, repeatedly assured me that, for all manner of reasons, my karma was "just perfect for this interview".


But all this transparent schmoozing came with a warning.
Questions about His Holiness's personal life were strictly off limits.
Oh, and The Beatles were an absolute taboo.

This didn't seem to leave much room for discussion, but there were more surprises in store.

For the historic interview I was ushered into the so-called brahmastan, a sort of giant pagoda-style wooden palace.


I was flanked by two sternfaced, light-suited "ministers", who introduced me, to the untold thousands of disciples watching this bizarre charade via the live global video-link by which the Maharishi communicated his edicts, as a "distinguished international journalist" - which was certainly a first for me.


Then, just as I was expecting him to make his entrance, a giant screen flickered to life and I was greeted not by a real live guru but by a sort of hologram with a cotton-wool beard and a shiny, teak-brown pate.

Only then did I realise that the Maharishi would be addressing me only via closed-circuit TV from his chamber, presumably somewhere upstairs.

"His Holiness never meets anyone because his doctor is concerned that he might catch germs," Roth whispered.
"He hasn't been outside for years."


In truth, it was more a monologue than an interview.
The Maharishi spouted incomprehensible mumbo jumbo for several minutes-then launched into a diatribe against Britain - a terrible country which believes in "divide and rule" and was responsible for much of the misery besetting the world.


This, he said, was why he had decided to "excommunicate" this country, meaning that his disciples were banned from teaching TM here (a state of affairs which, I regret to report, he later reversed).

My one small victory was that I managed to ask him - ever so politely - about The Beatles.
Given all the bad blood, did he regret his involvement with the band who made him a household name?

Suddenly, all that serenity evaporated and the mystic came over all mortal.
"Forget about it!" he spluttered furiously.
"If at all, (The) Beatles became substantial by my contact.
"I did not become great by association of The Beatles! Beatles make Maharishi great? Pah! It is a waste of thought."


Perhaps so, but there's no denying that this trivial "waste of thought" is one good reason why the Maharishi leaves behind in trust an estate conservatively said to be worth some £600 million.

A few weeks ago, with extraordinary prescience perhaps, the mystic handed control of the TM movement to his anointed successor, a little-known Lebanese former research scientist named Maharaja Nader Ram (formerly Dr Tony Nader).

But his peaceful passing, I am assured, will have little noticeable effect on the empire he created, with its hefty bank balance and estates, including a huge campus university in Iowa.


Meanwhile, with the charge for a three-day TM induction course now running at £1,280, the Giggling Guru's well-heeled "ministers" will doubtless go on living in the material world.

All they need is love, maybe. But money - that's what they want.


-=-=-=
 

Alex

Administrator
#60
Alex, I don't need to know the reason why you're so cynical about gurus, but I am curious.
just in case you wanted a little more :)

How a New Book Exposes the Dark Side of Transcendental Meditation

Claire Hoffman’s ‘Greetings From Utopia Park’ delves into her early experiences with TM movement and reclaiming her spiritual journey



Most people might remember the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as the guru who hosted the Beatles, Mia Farrow and Mike Love, among others, on their ill-fated excursion to India in 1967. But for Claire Hoffman, a Rolling Stone contributor and author of the memoir Greetings From Utopia Park: Surviving a Transcendent Childhood, the Maharishi was the all-powerful leader of the Midwestern community where she was born and raised — albeit a figurehead she’d never met. “He was always this Wizard of Oz-type character,” she says from her home in Los Angeles, where she now lives with her husband and two young children. “He was this giant broadcast face speaking do us in the dome.”

The Golden Domes she remembers were giant edifices for group meditation, the centerpieces of Maharishi International University (now Maharishi University of Management), located on a sprawling campus in Fairfield, Iowa, that had once been home to a Presbyterian college. The Maharishi had taken it over as his center of western operations in the 1970s, a place to host thousands of visiting followers in group meditation — which, they believed, might bring about world peace — and a permanent home to hundreds of others.




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But as Hoffman recounts, Transcendental Meditation, which had begun as a movement that propagated twice-daily, 20-minute meditations as a way to tune out the frantic aspects of modern American life, developed into a top-down organization that recommended expensive classes, house-brand vitamins and moving into Utopia Park, a trailer encampment near campus. In return for their devotion and sacrifice, the Maharishi’s followers — mostly disaffected youth of the 1960s, like Hoffman’s parents — would attain “200 percent of life”: absolute spiritual happiness and material success.

Of course, this didn’t usually happen. In her memoir, Hoffman describes her initial fascination with TM. Her earliest memories are of keeping out of her mother’s way while she meditated, and, as a child, learning to meditate herself. “Meditation for me at the time was a subtle alternate reality to which I liked to escape,” she writes. “A small secret door that would take me away from the world around me.”



But the realities of her early life were often harsh: an alcoholic father that left five-year-old Hoffman, her mother and her brother with less than $50 in New York City; a mother struggling to support the family on hourly wages from the natural food store after their return to Fairfield; a community so trusting they allowed the neighborhood kids to congregate at the home of a pedophile while the parents attended evening meditation; parents forced to choose between expensive tuition at the Maharishi’s private school, or to let their children be teased and bullied at the public school in town.
 
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