Survival of Consciousness after Death - Skeptiko Community Led List

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Zach Abraham R, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    As for the after effects of NDEs it seems in my limited scope that there are two main ways it goes - first, the Pauli effect. Some form of objectively recordable instances of unexplainable electrical, prophetic, etc phenomenon happening. Then you have the emotional/spiritual growth side which i think is more difficult to record in a scientific way??? either way, if I'm missing something, feel free to hop in and blast me
     
  2. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    I see the pauli effect gets waved off as some inside joke amongst scientists , or at least what i read on wikipedia, so this would be nice to prove it, though from something i got through personally i could say the pauli effect could be quite real

    kind of off topic but felt like chiming that in

    i dopossibly agree on the spiritual aspect of it being harder to record, cause that could be muddy and have the mundane explaination of having gone through a NDE giving you a extra bit of vigor for life
     
  3. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    on the cultural side, even though it's something I'm not especially knowledgable about, one might throw in the death rituals of egyptian, tibetan, etc I'm sure there are many others... The ritual in itself is done to benefit them in the next life, or through the underworld, no matter what it is a new direction and not the end of existence. We could then refer back to the religious literature which may describe the after death journey etc. In the end, the jump is made that in these cultures, the survival of consciousness after death was an aspect of their ritual, familial, religious lives and accepted as real to believers. Then you go for the overlapping symbols, angels/supreme being/oneness that aren't simply a natural poetic extension of an idea like a trip down the river or the underworld.
     
  4. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Maybe we'd do better to find cases if they exist where some form of illness or handicap disappeared.
     
  5. David Cardill

    David Cardill Member

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    moved to Incarnation
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  6. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    another one i was suggesting is

    if maybe the universe is ..... like if concious was fundamental to the universe, then in that sense would concious be fundamental to us? kinda putting 2 and 2 but? you see what i mean
     
  7. KindaGamey

    KindaGamey Member

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    Oh man, I just had the most amazing thought. What if Julie Beischel did a medium study where the mediums channeled someone that (unbeknownst to them) was still ALIVE.

    Here's my hypothesis:
    A: It would work.
    B: You would then ask the person and they'd have no idea that anything had happened.
     
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  8. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    you could do that

    but then you would hand a big bone to the christianity crowd that say it's demons imitating whoeever :')
     
  9. Red

    Red New

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  10. David Cardill

    David Cardill Member

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    Yep. This has been talked about forever, or at least as long as we could talk. In Eastern philosophy, Tao was simply part of "the way". It has been called many things: the will of god, divine providence, the holy spirit, the implicate order, the tao, reverse-entropy, life-force, and today we have even more words in our vocabulary to express it, and I also think we're closer to actually defining it in clear scientific terms, the way we define the properties of different elements today. Consciousness is not only in us, it is also all around us, always.
     
  11. Michael Patterson

    Michael Patterson New

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    The more I think on this, the more I like the idea of top 10 lists covering a bunch of themes. But I need clarity on whether these lists are going to have only material that meets scientific standards (eg Long and Beischel) or stuff that's just well researched, written and argued. A top 10 of work done by scientists undertaking intentional scientific research carries different weight, depending on a person's experience, or lack there of, when compared to other kinds of reports. I am not saying these other reports lack validity or credibility - just that different folk have needs to be met in different ways.

    My imagination is also going into what to do with the work produced and I am imagining a volume along the line's of Alex's - maybe interspersing quotes from shows?

    One of the reasons I like this top 10 notion is that while I have no need for the research, as an experiencer, I do acknowledge that damned fine research has been done and it deserves to be highlighted in a way that stops pressure to go back and fight battles already won. While there is an irrational minority intent on denying anything that is contra their dogma there is a majority of folk who sincerely want to know, and for whom credible scientific investigation is reassuring. Then the potent first person narratives have kinder air to do their work in.
     
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  12. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Not necessarily, though this thread is meant to be a discussion about a skeptiko community created 'Top Ten' list regarding survival of consciousness after death...
     
  13. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Not just the Christian crowd, I've seen plenty of Muslims use this same logic against reincarnation and many other things. However, if they can prove that demons are duping us, I'll happily get on board. I've met plenty of supposedly evolved people that seem to be more demon than human
     
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  14. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    No this is exactly the sort of thing we discuss here at Skeptiko - just give it a bit of time for the conversation to build up!

    David
     
  15. David Cardill

    David Cardill Member

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    ok, I moved everything I wrote to Extended Consciousness & Spirituality, to a new thread there called Incarnation.
     
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  16. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    has anyone read stalking the wild pendulum by itzhak bentov? is the guy a psuedoscientist or?
     
  17. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
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  18. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    Works for California, checked the youtube page for the musuem but they didn't upload the video there.
     
  19. Michael Patterson

    Michael Patterson New

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    Possibly Quantum Mechanics might be useful for establishing that the materialist model for reality no longer holds as the dominant model in the mind of a reader such that there is really no going back to the comfortable confines of materialism. But this would have to be a commentary on the history and politics of the development of QM, rather than trying to lay out an argument based on QM itself. There is a bit of very useful background on the politics in Nadeau & Kafatos's 'The Non-Local Universe: The New Physics and Matters of the Mind. And Jeff Kripal has a potentially useful POV in Secret Body. Here are 2 passages from a decent extensive discussion:

    (Commenting on the naysayers) “But in fact these rhetorical sneers are, at best partial and, historically speaking, simply wrong, since it was the physicists themselves who first made the case for some haunting resonances between the philosophical implications of quantum physics and the reported experiences of mystical literature.”

    “I pretend no adequate knowledge of these sciences. I invoke them to observe two things: (1) first, that the days of some simple mechanistic-materialist Darwinian model that works in a strictly linear, local, and causal fashion after old-fashioned Newtonian physics appear to be numbered; and (2) second, that the old and new vitalistic, holistic, semiotic, and quantum models are already providing experiencers and authors with new forms of plausibility and new sources of metaphor, with a new imaginaire, through which they have been creating new spiritual worlds.”

    But I would be content if the matter was not raised at all if there is no consensus - it would have to be raised succinctly and boldly or not at all
     
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  20. Alex

    Alex New

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    nice... and glad you like this idea.

    we can't do the inside baseball thing all the time :)
     

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