Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Zach Abraham R, Feb 4, 2018.
maybe there's a different way to handle QM.
They both need mentioned and talked about. Neither have proof in the "scientific" sense. But both have proof in a common-sense sense which lies in the importance of consistent and credible testimony. If somebody is so dull-minded and narrow-headed that they will only accept what has been shown in a lab, then they are largely an unreachable group of people in the first place and nothing will change them until they change the way they think or they have an experience themselves. The strength of all this lies in the words and actions of people, thousands of them over and over again to the point where a rational and open-minded person is forced to accept it as fact.
agreed, though you'd have to concede that if you chose a few cases where an actual physical illness/handicap is removed after an NDE, it would provide some pretty great evidence and be tough to disprove
Yes that's true. And that sort of data is good for the people who aren't going to delve too deeply into this unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because (I say again) the best proof of this thing isn't reading Dr Longs book, or Dr Moodys book etc. Its listening to these people speak about their experiences in person or on video. Once you get to the 10th person or so, you really start to see that its something with incredible substance and something truly profound and ultimately true.
I agree, yet we should be thinking about this list in terms of those people that aren't going to delve too deeply. The list could be the introduction to the topic for those who know nothing about it or see it as psuedo-science
There is a view that ghosts/hauntings are a very different order of phenomena relative to actual after death survival in that they are 'imprints' of strong obsessive behaviour that cycle through habituated patterns. Its a view I favour, although there are other opinions as well - but none of them, in my view, are sufficiently informed or structured to overcome the objection that ghosts/haunting are very different to other kinds of post death existence.
Likewise, I don't know enough about NDE after effects (beyond Long's reports) to have any real opinion here.
Relating cultural symbols to NDEs can become complex. It is said that people will experience what they imagine or believe at NDE events or ADEs
(Actual Death Experiences). So if you expect to be greeted by Jesus when you die, that is what you will experience. So the fact, as in Long, that people encounter something/someone they say is an angel or God isn't evidence of anything other than beliefs reflected in experience. Of course, all I can do here is recount what those who say they know say about these things.
For me the challenge is maybe best defined as finding the best way to get somebody over the line, so that their thinking is different - as opposed to laying out a whole argument that is completely compelling. I noted that a number of contributors mentioned experiences that change their outlook. Perhaps they might be our best guides here. What did it for them? What flicked their switch outside actual direct experience - what data, what argument?
If you dive deeply into this, and listen to peoples stories, account after account, it seems both are true. Their are hundreds of good credible cases of people where during the haunting, it appeared obvious that the spirit exhibited intelligence in that it interacted with the person in an unmistakable fashion. If you listen to enough accounts, on good shows such as Paranormal Witness and A Haunting etc, this is the only realistic conclusion, that many of these aparitions appear to exhibit working intelligence. Again, as with the NDE accounts, its the landslide of testimony which tells the tale. That's not to say that the sort of phenomenon which you talk about does not exist. This is called a "residual haunting." Residual energy which is left over from a previous life seems to "run a loop" ie-the same action is witnessed over and over again. For example- a residual energy appearing as a man looking out the window is witnessed over and over again, its the exact same thing witnessed each time, and the energy does not exhibit intelligence nor does it seem to interact with people. There is great testimonial evidence for both phenomenon.
I fully agree. Our book The Self Does Not Die shows that veridical NDEs are real and highly evidential. See also the interview we (Titus Rivas and me) had on Pscience quest:
I think it is more important than that. However you interpret it, it tells you that reality is nothing like we used to think, and the big claim for materialism is that it is Common Sense. QM isn't common sense, and yet it seems undeniably true. It is also the case that several of the quantum pioneers realised the connection. Since their time, the predictions of QM have been confirmed over and over again, closing the loopholes that many thought might re-create a materialist worldview. One of the first of these, was the discovery that the beam of photons or electrons in the double slit experiment, could be attenuated so that only one particle would be in the apparatus at once. Even then you get the interference pattern!
QM is the elephant in the room!
Yes, I can recommend this interview as well - especially given that I was the interviewer!
If any of you guys have some especially vivid, unique veridical NDE stories to share here that would be fantastic. The type of story along the lines of what member Jim_Smith quotes on his blog:
While Maria's body was being worked on by the medical staff she experienced leaving her body. She floated upwards some 4 stories and came out onto the roof of the hospital. There on the ledge of the roof she saw an old sneaker with a worn little toe and one lace tucked under the heel. When the resuscitation procedure had proved successful Maria came to and was quite preoccupied with her vision of the sneaker. ... She managed to persuade the social worker Kim Clark to go check and directed her to a window from which the shoe could be seen when leaning out. ... Clark easily found the correct window and there, indeed, lay the sneaker on the ledge with the worn little toe and the lace tucked under the heel just as Maria had described it.
An account of this NDE is also given in "Is There an Afterlife" by David Fontana.
Would love to get some juicy ones! Thanks for that Jim
This is a well known story and well-documented.
Therefore it is in The Self Does Not Die.
But it would be of great help if forum members could come up with others verified veridical NDE's we have not been aware of. They may then be included in the second edition which we are working on.
I think you know a lot more about QM than I do, David, so perhaps you could explain more directly how QM provides evidence that consciousness survives death, and why it deserves to be higher up on the list of evidence for same. Not to be a pedant, but your post which I've quoted seems to be kind of indirect and vague - if you were to put it in those exact words to somebody kind of on the fence about the survival of consciousness after biological death, I doubt that it would sway them much. You certainly have the skill to be more persuasive than that! Perhaps you could work with Zach on the wording and presentation of this particular item?
The conceptual problem I'm having getting QM into the NDE/survival of consciousness discussion is it shows consciousness' primacy over matter, and that mirrors what we know about survival of consciousness after death, but it doesn't on its own seem to say much specifically about death/survival of consciousness/NDE/OBE...
I'm still trying to formulate shortly and yet clearly my own unusual non-monistic (trinitarian) idealism, so I can tell about it on the Psience Quest interview thread and thus revitalise the discussion there... Still need some more time!
If I could ask too on the topic of verfiable AND striking case studies/stories this time in reference to AFTER DEATH COMMUNICATIONS.
Right now I'm using paul davids' book about forrest ackerman's ADCs to refer to but I don't really know his material that well and I believe there are more examples that would throw a wider lens on to the issue. I'm going to go peek at Jim_Smith's blog again
Also, just so anyone who's been following knows- I haven't dropped the ball, I'm in the process of writing up a bit of a draft to throw out to you guys to tear up!
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