Alex
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maybe there's a different way to handle QM.As for Quantum Mechanics, I'm thinking with Laird when he says it should be included but perhaps at the bottom of the list.
maybe there's a different way to handle QM.As for Quantum Mechanics, I'm thinking with Laird when he says it should be included but perhaps at the bottom of the list.
As for the after effects of NDEs it seems in my limited scope that there are two main ways it goes - first, the Pauli effect. Some form of objectively recordable instances of unexplainable electrical, prophetic, etc phenomenon happening. Then you have the emotional/spiritual growth side which i think is more difficult to record in a scientific way??? either way, if I'm missing something, feel free to hop in and blast me
They both need mentioned and talked about. Neither have proof in the "scientific" sense. But both have proof in a common-sense sense which lies in the importance of consistent and credible testimony. If somebody is so dull-minded and narrow-headed that they will only accept what has been shown in a lab, then they are largely an unreachable group of people in the first place and nothing will change them until they change the way they think or they have an experience themselves. The strength of all this lies in the words and actions of people, thousands of them over and over again to the point where a rational and open-minded person is forced to accept it as fact.
Yes that's true. And that sort of data is good for the people who aren't going to delve too deeply into this unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because (I say again) the best proof of this thing isn't reading Dr Longs book, or Dr Moodys book etc. Its listening to these people speak about their experiences in person or on video. Once you get to the 10th person or so, you really start to see that its something with incredible substance and something truly profound and ultimately true.agreed, though you'd have to concede that if you chose a few cases where an actual physical illness/handicap is removed after an NDE, it would provide some pretty great evidence and be tough to disprove
Yes that's true. And that sort of data is good for the people who aren't going to delve too deeply into this unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because (I say again) the best proof of this thing isn't reading Dr Longs book, or Dr Moodys book etc. Its listening to these people speak about their experiences in person or on video. Once you get to the 10th person or so, you really start to see that its something with incredible substance and something truly profound and ultimately true.
Apologies on my misunderstanding of what veridical NDEs are, definitely needs inclusion...
So in my opinion we've got two points to sort and one we haven't discussed that I think needs some discussion
1. Ghosts/Hauntings - what kind of evidence do we really need for it to merit inclusion? Does it merit inclusion? Are there examples of hauntings which yielded prophetic information etc
2. After Effects of NDEs - I don't know enough about the topic to weigh in, but I think the podcasts with PMH Atwater #152 - and Piero Calvi-Parisetti #319 are worth throwing into the mix...
And finally let's talk about universal cultural symbols such as angels, God, the radiating oneness of existence as written about in religious literature throughout many cultures- which seem to gain an extra significance when seen through the lens of an NDE ??? something like that.
There is a view that ghosts/hauntings are a very different order of phenomena relative to actual after death survival in that they are 'imprints' of strong obsessive behaviour that cycle through habituated patterns. Its a view I favour, although there are other opinions as well - but none of them, in my view, are sufficiently informed or structured to overcome the objection that ghosts/haunting are very different to other kinds of post death existence.
Likewise, I don't know enough about NDE after effects (beyond Long's reports) to have any real opinion here.
Relating cultural symbols to NDEs can become complex. It is said that people will experience what they imagine or believe at NDE events or ADEs
(Actual Death Experiences). So if you expect to be greeted by Jesus when you die, that is what you will experience. So the fact, as in Long, that people encounter something/someone they say is an angel or God isn't evidence of anything other than beliefs reflected in experience. Of course, all I can do here is recount what those who say they know say about these things.
For me the challenge is maybe best defined as finding the best way to get somebody over the line, so that their thinking is different - as opposed to laying out a whole argument that is completely compelling. I noted that a number of contributors mentioned experiences that change their outlook. Perhaps they might be our best guides here. What did it for them? What flicked their switch outside actual direct experience - what data, what argument?
I'd put it the other way around when it comes to objective evidence for the survival of consciousness: common NDEs are redundant next to veridical NDEs. Without the veridical component, an NDE is subject to dismissal as merely a subjective experience, i.e., in the same category as everyday dreams and "hallucinations", which can't be objectively proved to be anything other than "brain-based". Veridical confirmation objectively precludes such a dismissal; especially when the brain is dysfunctional, it proves that consciousness is independent of the brain, which strongly suggests the possibility that consciousness survives biological death.
I think it is more important than that. However you interpret it, it tells you that reality is nothing like we used to think, and the big claim for materialism is that it is Common Sense. QM isn't common sense, and yet it seems undeniably true. It is also the case that several of the quantum pioneers realised the connection. Since their time, the predictions of QM have been confirmed over and over again, closing the loopholes that many thought might re-create a materialist worldview. One of the first of these, was the discovery that the beam of photons or electrons in the double slit experiment, could be attenuated so that only one particle would be in the apparatus at once. Even then you get the interference pattern!Include quantum mechanics, but put it way down the list
I fully agree. Our book The Self Does Not Die shows that veridical NDEs are real and highly evidential. See also the interview we (Titus Rivas and me) had on Pscience quest:
http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-written-interview-with-rudolf-smit-and-titus-rivas
Smithy
If any of you guys have some especially vivid, unique veridical NDE stories to share here that would be fantastic. The type of story along the lines of what member Jim_Smith quotes on his blog:
While Maria's body was being worked on by the medical staff she experienced leaving her body. She floated upwards some 4 stories and came out onto the roof of the hospital. There on the ledge of the roof she saw an old sneaker with a worn little toe and one lace tucked under the heel. When the resuscitation procedure had proved successful Maria came to and was quite preoccupied with her vision of the sneaker. ... She managed to persuade the social worker Kim Clark to go check and directed her to a window from which the shoe could be seen when leaning out. ... Clark easily found the correct window and there, indeed, lay the sneaker on the ledge with the worn little toe and the lace tucked under the heel just as Maria had described it.
http://www.deathisanillusion.com/page.pl?id=2&cid=2
An account of this NDE is also given in "Is There an Afterlife" by David Fontana.
Would love to get some juicy ones! Thanks for that Jim
I think it is more important than that. However you interpret it, it tells you that reality is nothing like we used to think, and the big claim for materialism is that it is Common Sense. QM isn't common sense, and yet it seems undeniably true. It is also the case that several of the quantum pioneers realised the connection. Since their time, the predictions of QM have been confirmed over and over again, closing the loopholes that many thought might re-create a materialist worldview. One of the first of these, was the discovery that the beam of photons or electrons in the double slit experiment, could be attenuated so that only one particle would be in the apparatus at once. Even then you get the interference pattern!
QM is the elephant in the room!
I think you know a lot more about QM than I do, David, so perhaps you could explain more directly how QM provides evidence that consciousness survives death, and why it deserves to be higher up on the list of evidence for same. Not to be a pedant, but your post which I've quoted seems to be kind of indirect and vague - if you were to put it in those exact words to somebody kind of on the fence about the survival of consciousness after biological death, I doubt that it would sway them much. You certainly have the skill to be more persuasive than that! Perhaps you could work with Zach on the wording and presentation of this particular item?
Has anyone read Dr Julie Beischel's study ?