TALKING EVIL WITH ALEX TSAKIRIS -- GORDON WHITE -- RUNE SOUP

Alex,

@Alex The discussion here needs to be had, but I'd really like to move it elsewhere. All I need is the "Other Stuff" section renamed and I can do the rest (I think)
As someone who considers themselves of the left, I hear you. Still, to my mind, the toxic 'woke' brigade is currently engaged in an ideological hostile takeover of traditionally liberal/left institutions. We should not let this happen. If we do, the left is done, imo. It's been going on for years, of course, but this is the big one.
Damn, I said I wasn't going to do politics on this forum anymore. *Sigh*
Yes, I thought that promise could not last, but that is OK - just avoid resorting to dodgy language :)
I was Left too - back in the days where the number one imperative was to avoid war. I think many Left people are well meaning, bu they tend to excuse the Democrat excesses and think they won't happen, do they really want:

1) A party that has deliberately selected a senile man as their candidate to be president?

2) No police or justice system.

3) Probably another foreign war or two.

4) Endless, endless spending - which means endless borrowing, which means huge tax rises in due course.

I want an end of racism - but for me, that means a society in which everyone is treated equally, except that those from disadvantaged communities would be given extra coaching to try to bring them up to scratch.

David
 
The pushback was against Gordon taking up so much time with definitional issues. And cosmological issues. I already knew that you both have a cosmology in which evil entities exist and are more than ready to be available for atrocities commited in cooperation with humans.. But how would that work to culminate in any given case? And in a case of skinning a 4 year old, an act infinitely more foul than the Anneke Lucas case? Gordon, in this case, would seemingly ask ,well what was the evil part, what was done or the ritual aspect. He drove me crazy, especially b/c I know he knows a lot more about this subject than he told us.
ok. I get your point. sorry for not being responsive the first time. I guess one of my frustrations in the interview was gordon's attempt to quantify evil... " Gee, which is worse the skinning of a four-year-old boy or the drone striking of a dozen school children." from a spiritual standpoint this seems like a misguided effort. it seems to me that if we try to synthesize together what time zinser is staying and what the buddhists are saying, and what's some of the other wisdom traditions are saying, we wind up it with a much more personal evil. seems to be about a "soul's" journey/evolution/training. and while this might not fully explain the ontology of evil and questions like "do demons ever incarnate" it seem to nudge us a little bit closer to what may be going on. what do you think?
 
Alex,

@Alex The discussion here needs to be had, but I'd really like to move it elsewhere. All I need is the "Other Stuff" section renamed and I can do the rest (I think)

Yes, I thought that promise could not last, but that is OK - just avoid resorting to dodgy language :)
I was Left too - back in the days where the number one imperative was to avoid war. I think many Left people are well meaning, bu they tend to excuse the Democrat excesses and think they won't happen, do they really want:

1) A party that has deliberately selected a senile man as their candidate to be president?

2) No police or justice system.

3) Probably another foreign war or two.

4) Endless, endless spending - which means endless borrowing, which means huge tax rises in due course.

I want an end of racism - but for me, that means a society in which everyone is treated equally, except that those from disadvantaged communities would be given extra coaching to try to bring them up to scratch.

David
what would you name it? why should we have that discussion here on Skeptiko? it seems to be largely outside of this project? can't we just say that it's all social engineering and leave it at that? why on earth would you think that trump ( or anyone else they put in there) is somehow above/outside/a-solution-to this? that said, I don't want to stifle the conversations that you might have. so tell me what you'd like to name it.
 
Alex,

@Alex The discussion here needs to be had, but I'd really like to move it elsewhere. All I need is the "Other Stuff" section renamed and I can do the rest (I think)

Yes, I thought that promise could not last, but that is OK - just avoid resorting to dodgy language :)
I was Left too - back in the days where the number one imperative was to avoid war. I think many Left people are well meaning, bu they tend to excuse the Democrat excesses and think they won't happen, do they really want:

1) A party that has deliberately selected a senile man as their candidate to be president?

2) No police or justice system.

3) Probably another foreign war or two.

4) Endless, endless spending - which means endless borrowing, which means huge tax rises in due course.

I want an end of racism - but for me, that means a society in which everyone is treated equally, except that those from disadvantaged communities would be given extra coaching to try to bring them up to scratch.

David
David, I was keeping it down to the whole "what is evil" theme for this thread. I think it fits here. Cults have been a common enough topic on Skeptiko. It's the idea that good people are duped into feeding evil that interests me. I think that is what is happening with SJWs.
 
what would you name it? why should we have that discussion here on Skeptiko? it seems to be largely outside of this project? can't we just say that it's all social engineering and leave it at that? why on earth would you think that trump ( or anyone else they put in there) is somehow above/outside/a-solution-to this? that said, I don't want to stifle the conversations that you might have. so tell me what you'd like to name it.
Alex, I was doing my best to keep on topic with the whole "what is evil" theme. I don't really see the need to move what was posted to a politics forum. Cults are this really basic form of evil. Good people with good intentions being led astray by something dark. And the SJWs clearly fall into that realm. So many of the people on both sides of the culture war use the word evil. Keri Smith, who was a third wave feminist and adherent to SJW culture (so much so that she worked in the entertainment industry to produce SJW TV shows to promote that culture in the mainstream) calls it an evil cult. Burgess Owens calls the woke culture an evil that is destroying the Black Middle Class. They see it as a pure evil unleashed in this world and fed by unsuspecting people.
 
what would you name it? why should we have that discussion here on Skeptiko? it seems to be largely outside of this project? can't we just say that it's all social engineering and leave it at that? why on earth would you think that trump ( or anyone else they put in there) is somehow above/outside/a-solution-to this? that said, I don't want to stifle the conversations that you might have. so tell me what you'd like to name it.
Well without the evil discussion, what you say might make sense, but evil does involve politics (think Epstein, and Podesta's love of 'spirit cooking', and the whole Pizzagate issue), and it is much easier to enforce a place where people talk politics rather than enforce a complete ban.

Also, I'd say this is one place where people on the two sides of politics can actually engage in a meaningful (ideally) discussion - I'd miss it if we simply banned politics completely.

Suggestion for new section name: "Discussions that overlap with politics"

David
 
Well without the evil discussion, what you say might make sense, but evil does involve politics (think Epstein, and Podesta's love of 'spirit cooking', and the whole Pizzagate issue), and it is much easier to enforce a place where people talk politics rather than enforce a complete ban.

Also, I'd say this is one place where people on the two sides of politics can actually engage in a meaningful (ideally) discussion - I'd miss it if we simply banned politics completely.

Suggestion for new section name: "Discussions that overlap with politics"

David

This thread started out talking math but has diverged into physics.
 
ok. I get your point. sorry for not being responsive the first time. I guess one of my frustrations in the interview was gordon's attempt to quantify evil... " Gee, which is worse the skinning of a four-year-old boy or the drone striking of a dozen school children." from a spiritual standpoint this seems like a misguided effort. it seems to me that if we try to synthesize together what time zinser is staying and what the buddhists are saying, and what's some of the other wisdom traditions are saying, we wind up it with a much more personal evil. seems to be about a "soul's" journey/evolution/training. and while this might not fully explain the ontology of evil and questions like "do demons ever incarnate" it seem to nudge us a little bit closer to what may be going on. what do you think?

Hi again, I do not fully understand your comment. IMO there are two types of evil demons--1) "grounded" entities / ghosts who were evil as humans before they died, and did not cross over but instead attached to certain humans to continue doing evil; and 2) demons proper which were never incarnate / are a disincarnate entity in an ontological category in its own right. It is the latter that collaborate with humans who are so evil they wish to form covens with them (which allows for evil on the scale that we have been seeing). As for soul evolution, I believe these humans no longer have souls, for it is not POSSIBLE for a human soul to skin a 4 yr old alive. (As I said in a prior post, when they die they will have to be emininated in the upper astral by the PTB that operate there). You spoke of a deep spiritual impulse that knows the line that can't be crossed. These humans have lost that impulse, which is why I keep saying they are an aberration.

I have spent years researching demons in all the cultures: there has never been a society that did not know of them until our post-Enlightenment secular culture.

For several years I have also been mentored by a professional demonlologist / interventionist. who is a medium. The terrifying thing is that the human PTB are working with demons, who are running rampant b/c so few even believe in them anymore. Gordon knows this--I once heard him say on HSC that demons are "running" all the global leaders, "as we of course all know."
 
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Alex, I was doing my best to keep on topic with the whole "what is evil" theme. I don't really see the need to move what was posted to a politics forum. Cults are this really basic form of evil. Good people with good intentions being led astray by something dark. And the SJWs clearly fall into that realm. So many of the people on both sides of the culture war use the word evil. Keri Smith, who was a third wave feminist and adherent to SJW culture (so much so that she worked in the entertainment industry to produce SJW TV shows to promote that culture in the mainstream) calls it an evil cult. Burgess Owens calls the woke culture an evil that is destroying the Black Middle Class. They see it as a pure evil unleashed in this world and fed by unsuspecting people.
I hear you K9. on the other hand there is an issue regarding POV and tone... not saying that you crossed any line there... but it's easy to see how it could turn into a less meaningful discussion.

On the other, other hand, I think the cult stuff is super relevant... especially when we look at how the neocon response to the sjw crap is largely driven by the cult of Christianity.

it looks like those cults have us surrounded :)
 
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Hi again, I do not fully understand your comment. IMO there are two types of evil demons--1) "grounded" entities / ghosts who were evil as humans before they died, and did not cross over but instead attached to certain humans to continue doing evil; and 2) demons proper which were never incarnate / are a disincarnate entity in an ontological category in its own right. It is the latter that collaborate with humans who are so evil they wish to form covens with them (which allows for evil on the scale that we have been seeing). As for soul evolution, I believe these humans no longer have souls, for it is not POSSIBLE for a human soul to skin a 4 yr old alive. (As I said in a prior post, when they die they will have to be emininated in the upper astral by the PTB that operate there). You spoke of a deep spiritual impulse that knows the line that can't be crossed. These humans have lost that impulse, which is why I keep saying they are an aberration.

I have spent years researching demons in all the cultures: there has never been a society that did not know of them until our post-Enlightenment secular culture.

For several years I have also been mentored by a professional demonlologist / interventionist. who is a medium. The terrifying thing is that the human PTB are working with demons, who are running rampant b/c so few even believe in them anymore. Gordon knows this--I once heard him say on HSC that demons are "running" all the global leaders, "as we of course all know."
ok great... I mean, check that, definitely not great... I mean it's fantastic that you know all this and are taking it to the next level. so I definitely like to dive in further and try and understand this ontology. I've heard others say almost exactly what you're saying, but I'm not quite convinced about the accuracy of this map. I have a hunch that we may be limited in our understanding of the different manifestations of conscious beings. I immediately think of ET and how they fit into this. I also think of our species as a moving / evolving target of consciousness. I'm bored more convinced that we are part of a I'm going genetic engineering program. I wonder what this means in in terms of our ability to embody consciousness. I wonder the same about demons. I was surprised that gordon didn't seem to understand this line inquiry -- what does ET see in his life review?

who do you think we should talk to you on this? I'm going to run this past tom zinser and see if he'd like to weigh in.
 
I hear you K9. on the other hand there is an issue regarding POV and tone... not saying that you crossed any line there... but it's easy to see how it could turn into a less meaningful discussion.

On the other, other hand, I think the cult stuff is super relevant... especially when we look at how the neocon response to the sjw crap is largely driven by the cult of Christianity.

it looks like those cults have us surrounded :)
It does seem to go back and forth. I can remember when the Moral Majority was the group threatening everyone else's personal freedoms. It seemed much more clear cut back them. The Moral Majority didn't pretend to be the opposite of what they were, which seems to be the case with wokeness.
 
It does seem to go back and forth. I can remember when the Moral Majority was the group threatening everyone else's personal freedoms. It seemed much more clear cut back them. The Moral Majority didn't pretend to be the opposite of what they were, which seems to be the case with wokeness.
but don't you think that's kind of baked into the christian cult thing. they are a different kind of "believer."

also, I think a lot of people would say they did pretend to be the opposite of what they were. Jesus loves you... But he hates fags.
 
WHAT IS THE FULL CITATION FOR THE BOOK WITCHCRAFT WHICH YOU BOTH MENTIONED? TY
 
This thread started out talking math but has diverged into physics.

I guess you meant that as an analogy - my little grey cells must be vanishing!

I suppose my point is that certain discussions here do morph into politics, and i don't see any pleasant way to avoid that. The best I can reasonably suggest is to move them elsewhere, so people know when they jump across there and can't complain!

David
 
ok great... I mean, check that, definitely not great... I mean it's fantastic that you know all this and are taking it to the next level. so I definitely like to dive in further and try and understand this ontology. I've heard others say almost exactly what you're saying, but I'm not quite convinced about the accuracy of this map. I have a hunch that we may be limited in our understanding of the different manifestations of conscious beings. I immediately think of ET and how they fit into this. I also think of our species as a moving / evolving target of consciousness. I'm bored more convinced that we are part of a I'm going genetic engineering program. I wonder what this means in in terms of our ability to embody consciousness. I wonder the same about demons. I was surprised that gordon didn't seem to understand this line inquiry -- what does ET see in his life review?

who do you think we should talk to you on this? I'm going to run this past tom zinser and see if he'd like to weigh in.

In Tom's long post at his show thread he showed that he knows a thing or two.

IMO the bestest resource is Gordon, if you can get him.

I thought he did get ET life review--once you explained it to him.

How does ET fit in? IMO not as a major actor. They have their own lives, are of varying degrees of morality, and only some of which are dangerous to humans.

I adhere to the Perennial Philosphy, by which one Source emanated all the many beings in the universe, and gave them free will.

I utterly reject genetic engineering in the way you think of it.

All the best with your writing!
 
ok great... I mean, check that, definitely not great... I mean it's fantastic that you know all this and are taking it to the next level. so I definitely like to dive in further and try and understand this ontology. I've heard others say almost exactly what you're saying, but I'm not quite convinced about the accuracy of this map. I have a hunch that we may be limited in our understanding of the different manifestations of conscious beings. I immediately think of ET and how they fit into this. I also think of our species as a moving / evolving target of consciousness. I'm bored more convinced that we are part of a I'm going genetic engineering program. I wonder what this means in in terms of our ability to embody consciousness. I wonder the same about demons. I was surprised that gordon didn't seem to understand this line inquiry -- what does ET see in his life review?

who do you think we should talk to you on this? I'm going to run this past tom zinser and see if he'd like to weigh in.

Hello Alex, I must tell you, I am still learning how to navigate the forum. I'm glad to comment. I'm just not sure how much I can say to help make sense of it all. When I first began working with Gerod and encountering external entities with clients, I tried to classify and label them. I figured there would only be a few different kinds. I gave up on that before two years into it. The four main categories I use in my own thinking are spirits, ET's, dimensional beings, and created, soul-less entities.

In my clinical practice, the focus was on having any external entity leave my client in the least amount of steps. Clients were not paying me to do research. What I learned was on a kind of need-to-know basis. As complex cases accumulated, so did my experience with all kinds of entities. More now than ever, I would not even try to categorize all the entities out there. It's a big universe. When I cross over, I expect I will reach a greater understanding about these encounters and experiences. Meanwhile, my focus still remains on the clinical in terms of what kinds of entities intrude or interfere with a person, and how can they be cleared.

I'm sure that in the Judeo-Christian culture, some of the spirits I've dealt with would be termed demonic. However, it also seems to me that entities can be too quickly labeled demonic because they are hostile, or threatening, or sneering. I have limited my own use of that term to souls in darkness whose intent is to possess or enslave a soul(s), whether by violence or deceit, but the purpose, in the end, is to gain total power and control of another soul. I remember once working with very evil spirits, and asking Gerod about such darkness. At some point in that discussion, he said that there are all kinds of distortions that occur in the dark. The extreme demonic spirits, driven originally by such hatred and pain, spiral so deep into the darkness that they would wish to extinguish the Light even though it would destroy them as well. I'll stop there for the moment.
 
ALEX, I am still perplexed by your saying evil is a lens into extended consciousness—if we take eye glasses, with a lens, and we speak of rose colored lenses making everything looks rosy-- you surely aren’t making a parallel with that??

I didn't get that either and wondered that Gordon's acting as if he understood what Alex meant was something I have sensed Gordon often does... act as if he shares the same precise view but is really trying to soften the other so as to gain greater entry with his, "but also..." (note, I do not see this as a bad way to tactically and tactfully communicate, quite the contrary)

I truly wish you would define extended consciousness. Other concepts out there are greater reality, spirit realms, mutidimensional....Can you identify with any of those?

Many thanks to you both. :):D:eek:

Thanks for this question too. I always interpreted it as "all that lays beyond ordinary consciousness" and I always interpreeted "ordinary consciousness" to be "the waking state, thinking minded consciousness... the conversation going on in one's head as each of us experience that which gains our attention, again... while we are awake."

I also found trying to pin Alex down can sometimes be a tricky thing!
 
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