The alt-right, PC speech and Islamic extremism

What the hell does that mean?
Well it means that 50 years ago, certain politicians really stuck their necks out to pass the sexual offences act 1967 the decriminalised most homosexual acts. This was quite an achievement back then, and it took some nerve and conviction to make it happen.

Now we have a weird situation in which the only way politicians can use this issue is by pushing the extremes - there basically isn't anything left to protest about! Gays and lesbians can live together, enjoy a civil partnership, have a civil marriage, adopt children, use the law if necessary to oppose discrimination - at least here in Britain. So the only reason why this issue can't be put to bed (sorry for the pun) is that then politicians would not be able to make trouble (or should I say political capital) out of it.

I want gays and lesbians to keep those rights far into the future - the best chance of that happening is if they now merge into society as much as possible.

When a job is done, it is done!

David
 
It's problematic because if homosexuality was the norm, humanity would die out. There are quite a few unreconstructed Darwinians who would welcome that occurrence as the natural order, with a footnote that mankind was never up to much anyway. If it is a physical issue as everyone seems to be saying, perhaps we should approach its diagnosis with the same urgency as climate change, as a threat to civilisation. We don't because we assume it's one of those things, perhaps on a par with a comet hitting the earth as a means of wiping humanity out. It's just there.

Subjecting homosexuality to a religious purview doesn't take us very far into it as a state of being. For Catholics homosexuality isn't sinful, though developing it into a physical relationship is, but so is every other sexual proclivity outside a strictly reproductive and continent married role. Faith isn't about making people feel better about themselves - the dominant discourse of the c21st - it's about sainthood and an almost impossibly high moral bar to achieve it. I perceive no lack of homosexuals in the pews or on the altar, so I don't think Christian belief and same sex attraction is a deal breaker. In the Anglican communion homosexual priests threatened to cause schism, until in a typically Church of England way it was decided homosexuals could be members of the clergy so long as they forsook physical relations. The homosexual vicar and ex-pop star Richard Coles has expounded on the issue, and his thoughts can probably be found on the internet. At some level the CofE think gay sex is wrong, at least as an official line.

On an anecdotal level, I know homosexual people who are as queer as **** and celebrate their instincts with as much abandon as they can muster. I also know gays who exhibit a degree of self loathing, including two who had tried heterosexual marriage and really wished they were straight. I know a number of homosexual men who live lives of sexual abstinence and straight acting couples who live monogamously and have no time for the flamboyant side of gay culture. So I don't accept instinctive homosexuals view their orientation as unproblematic. Do they adopt that position because they have misgivings about their libido, or because they fear societal opprobrium, or they think it's "wrong" on some spiritual/psychic level? I don't know, and maybe they don't either.

What is worrying is the popular idea that debates around sexuality generally are closed, and that there's a modern, "scientific" way of looking at sex, and a medieval way, and the latter is subject to Orwellian realignment. That reminds me of sceptic claims that all the important stuff is already known, and to question the fact is to invite the Inquisition. One of the better aspects of this forum is these subjects can be discussed and disagreed over without demonising the other.


The Y- chromosome is disappearing. Albeit, males have a window of 4.8 million years before the Y chromosome is gone. Most likely humans will self-destruct before then.

But life is short so let's be optimistic and assume humankind survives 4.5 million years. Homosexuals only make up an estimated 20% of the population. Further, homosexuality is not a barrier to parenthood, and in fact many homosexuals procreate. Growing up one there was a typical Catholic family in our neighborhood: mom, dad, and seven kids--the dad was out to his family, so the entire neighborhood knew he was gay. So sexual orientation is not a barrier to procreation. Seems to me the disintegrating Y-chromosome, and not homosexuality is problematic to the survival of humankind.
 
Well it means that 50 years ago, certain politicians really stuck their necks out to pass the sexual offences act 1967 the decriminalised most homosexual acts. This was quite an achievement back then, and it took some nerve and conviction to make it happen.

Now we have a weird situation in which the only way politicians can use this issue is by pushing the extremes - there basically isn't anything left to protest about! Gays and lesbians can live together, enjoy a civil partnership, have a civil marriage, adopt children, use the law if necessary to oppose discrimination - at least here in Britain. So the only reason why this issue can't be put to bed (sorry for the pun) is that then politicians would not be able to make trouble (or should I say political capital) out of it.

I want gays and lesbians to keep those rights far into the future - the best chance of that happening is if they now merge into society as much as possible.

When a job is done, it is done!

David

No it's not the politicians, it's the population. It's the church that keeps the congregations riled up over homosexuality. I don't know how it is in the UK but here in the US the church has been relentless in there persecution of LGBT by vilifying them from the pulpit, and using the pulpit to influence anti-gay legislation. People cannot assimilate into society when there is a relentless barrage of harassment.

The fact that this thread has focused so intensely on the issue of homosexuality speaks to how the population won't let the issue die. This site has nothing to do with homosexuality--so how did we get here? Why aren't we talking about quantum entanglement and the arrow of time?

I have to hand it to the Mormons, at least they've struck an truce in the religious anti-gay crusade. I don't know why it's so difficult to leave one's neighbors in peace. Seriously, at the end of the day who our neighbors love and chooses to share their life with has absolutely no bearing on anyone else.
 
Well it means that 50 years ago, certain politicians really stuck their necks out to pass the sexual offences act 1967 the decriminalised most homosexual acts. This was quite an achievement back then, and it took some nerve and conviction to make it happen.

Now we have a weird situation in which the only way politicians can use this issue is by pushing the extremes - there basically isn't anything left to protest about! Gays and lesbians can live together, enjoy a civil partnership, have a civil marriage, adopt children, use the law if necessary to oppose discrimination - at least here in Britain. So the only reason why this issue can't be put to bed (sorry for the pun) is that then politicians would not be able to make trouble (or should I say political capital) out of it.

I want gays and lesbians to keep those rights far into the future - the best chance of that happening is if they now merge into society as much as possible.

When a job is done, it is done!

David
That seems a pretty arrogant response David. You've decided that everything is fine for gay people in the UK have you? I'd agree that things are much better and the law reflects the official position however social attiitudes take a lot longer to change. I presume you think that there no need for change in society now for people in other minority groups. I am happy i can now tell friends who are black that everything's fine now, just like for gay people so there's no need to "keep going on about that" either.

Where I do agree with you is the wrongness of the use of such prejudice and bias in society to further a political or personal agenda which is not really about the issue that is presented. I think that's deceptive and counterproductive and I am sure there are those who do that but I think you're view is terribly simplistic.
 
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No it's not the politicians, it's the population. It's the church that keeps the congregations riled up over homosexuality. I don't know how it is in the UK but here in the US the church has been relentless in there persecution of LGBT by vilifying them from the pulpit, and using the pulpit to influence anti-gay legislation. People cannot assimilate into society when there is a relentless barrage of harassment.
Well I think things are a bit different in the UK. The most prominent religious objection to homosexuality comes from Muslims. The introduction of gay marriage has also caused some problems in the C of E, as has the question of whether such people can be ordained. However Christianity has less of a grip in the UK.
The fact that this thread has focused so intensely on the issue of homosexuality speaks to how the population won't let the issue die. This site has nothing to do with homosexuality--so how did we get here? Why aren't we talking about quantum entanglement and the arrow of time?
I think it would very soon die in the UK if politicians just let go of the subject. Most people know several gay people - it really isn't much of an issue!

Yes to moving back to other issues - I heartily agree!


David
 
The Y chromosome is not "disappearing", it technically "shaves off" redundant genes as an evolutionary process but retains the relevant genes despite that. I would quote Nature, but... You know, book burning and all that.
 
It boils down to whether we think positive discrimination is a good thing or bad. I think it's a terrible idea. It's a treatment that never becomes a cure, and allows politicians off the hook.

Let's say a personnel survey finds black females are under represented in an aspect of public life. Does the institution progressively lower the admissions bar until the average qualifications of an Afro-Caribbean woman meets the requirement? Or does it do something about educating black women until they meet the same academic standard as other demographics? Anything but the last is fudge that allows politicians to claim they're doing something about the "issue", knowing they won't be round long enough to enact the cure. There are simple things institutions can do about fixing imbalance, like providing crèches so working women can continue careers through child rearing, or ensuring working hours don't blur into professional socialising, presenteeism or old boys' networks. They can formalise bullying policies. In the end though, it comes down to whether government and business want to fix problems or fend off criticism while maintaining the status quo.

In the case of homosexuality much of the debate here is politicking and avoidance. If it's a genetic "condition" which seems to be the dominant argument even within the gay community, a biologically programmed impulse outside conscious volition, then debates around homosexuality's biological nature are live ones, and include discussions like research into its origins and genetic modification. If homosexuality is a predisposition as I've argued, a mix of nature and nurture manifesting itself through sexuality, I fail to see why it should be politicised and subject to ideological suspicion for stating the case. On the other hand if same sex attraction is one of the less common sexual preferences (which I find unlikely), in the same way some people are aroused by overweight individuals or foot fetishism, it's hard to see why homosexuality should enter the public arena in a serious way.

Like so many aspects of modern life, groups have come to believe they are "special" or "challenged", when they mean disabled or unconventional. I welcome eccentricity, it's one flowing of abundant human life, but by definition it defies convention. I don't welcome disability and believe most sufferers from physical problems want them fixed or at least understood. As David said, once a problem is fixed, it's fixed, but that doesn't mean a panacea for existence and carries every bit as much responsibility as any other state. If I walk into a dodgy area and get mugged because I don't look like the average inhabitant, the problem is human nature, and that isn't going away.
 
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Would you argue the same about heterosexuality?
Absolutely. A heterosexual has an instinct to reproduce manifested through a sex drive with a genetic component, but that doesn't account for why the epitome of heterosexual desire for a minority is a 30 stone woman in rubber! Or why for some gay men the horniest thing in the world is a fat hairy old "bear" not a fit, toned young guy. Should we legislate for such curious manifestations of human sexuality and insist on "no laughing" rules and a knock on the door by the thought police for transgressions (sic).

Gays are "tragic" figures (think of The Only Gay in the Village sketch), or homosexual orientation is the best thing that ever happened (Pride), or they get on with their lives and aren't defined by their sexuality. You can't blame heterosexuals for questioning why these vying discourses require ideological attention that straight sexual politics do not.
 
To change tack, I found it interesting how the Manchester bombing and Borough Market atrocities were described as acts of terrorism, but all the early reports of the British man driving into the group of Muslim worshippers described it as a "hate crime". The Thought Police, or perhaps the lawyers had obviously made a few phone calls because later headlines did indeed describe the attack as "terrorism". Are all attacks not hate crimes, including ones where five blokes punch one on the way back from the boozer?
 
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