EthanT
Member
I was making a quick response to one of @David Bailey 's posts and it grew into a monster that I thought deserved its own thread. Hope you don't mind David. Your post just got me writing about a view of science I have been thinking about for some time. I guess the 2nd part below is where I really get into that
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David, I basically agree with this, except for the anticipated collapse, which I think will be a lot different than many folks seem to think. Also, talking about collapse in this manner is probably exactly why folks get the impression psi has to do away with known physics to make it a reality, which is a total falsehood, imho. I don't think it does much for the psi proponent's cause, either. On the other hand, the basic framework/foundation of Quantum Field Theory (or the Standard Model) has been experimentally confirmed to significant degrees of precision. Likewise with General Relativity. However, we know they're both incomplete theories. I think it is a lot more likely psi/consciousness will require extended theory that completes the two major branches of physics (relativity and quantum theory) as folks like Dean Radin, Roger Nelson talk about, rather than collapse the "whole house of cards" (and an experimentally confirmed "house of cards" at that) as I keep hearing on this forum more and more.
Also, although I think it is wise to be wary of "extrapolations", I think you draw the wrong conclusions. When we extrapolate WAY back in time (like the 10^-30s you mention) towards the Big Bang we go further and further into higher-energy physics (GUTs, etc), which we understand less and less. In other words, it's not just an extrapolation of any one specific theory, as it is an appeal to higher-energy and not-as-well-understood physics. This is what I was trying to say in the Cosmology thread a ways back. It's a real concern, imho. However, if those "extrapolations" are wrong in that regime, that doesn't mean the framework of the two major branches of physics today - quantum theory and relativity - are going to "crash and burn". It just means we don't understand the higher-energy physics, which wouldn't be a big surprise to many physicists. I'm personally expecting to find out as much.
I just hope you're not including Many Worlds (MWI) in this - the most down-to-earth theory ever, hehe ;-)
I do agree with this to some extent too, but I take on a different attitude. I rejoice that science is losing touch with the generally accepted view of reality, because the sooner they do, the better. Let me explain, because that probably sounds crazy, hehe.
On this forum, we all talk about how consciousness can never be fully modeled mathematically, that materialism is dead, that experimental empiricism can only go so far, and so on and so on. Well, we're finally all living in an age where science is having to confront the bounds of empirical ability and the limits of materialism! And, what do we do? Sit around and talk about the ills of science, almost like science is somehow evil. I personally prefer to view science today more like an infant entering a new realm which is totally unfamiliar. Of course, it doesn't know how to compose itself or conduct itself, let alone know exactly how to move forward. It's going to have to grope around and take many stabs in the dark, many of which will appear futile and not very well-executed. I'm personally excited to see science fumble and bumble around in today's exotic theories, because within that I see the greatest potential for it to open up to new ideas that were once anathema.
This is what science is beginning to go through in my opinion and it's beginning to lose its enamor with its current view of reality (materialism, experimental empiricism) and will eventually discover a new one. If you could view all of humanity symbolically as that allegorical infant, then the Dawkins and Schermer's of the world would be analogous to unconscious contents within the consciousness of every individual that always resist change and fears the unknown. I'm not sure we should damn science any more than we would damn an infant lost in a new environment. It's going through all the "growing pains" and exhibiting all the reactions to be expected as the overall conscious awareness humanity currently has about reality starts to expand. Can we really expect anything more? Do we really expect the transition out of materialism to be a smooth, effortless affair? Within mythology, transformations of consciousness are always accompanied by angels and demons
Anyhow, this age we live in looks to finally be a potential taking off point into a science of consciousness/psi. The willingness of scientists to let go of empiricism and extrapolate into realms that are never directly empirically accessible, even in principle (here in the form of the multiverse, etc) is in my opinion a baby step towards that - albeit one still tinged with materialism. (But, at least it finally and completely shrugged off positivism by doing so! More evidence of how the reality of science is indeed changing!). But, all of this is going to plant a seed that will ultimately be the end of materialism/reductionism as the dominant worldviews. Physicists are talking about things they never would have decades ago. They are considering new ideas. And, as we notice on here often, more and more are beginning to become open to psi and the idea that consciousness is somehow fundamental.
It's an exciting time. Science is going to play a big, pivotal role. Let's embrace it. ;-)
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My gut feeling is that a lot of exotic physics may collapse for a variety of reasons once psychic phenomena and/or consciousness get better explanations:
1) Physics doesn't incorporate consciousness. Basic QM did try to do so, but mainstream physics hasn't developed that theme. That single fact suggests that there is something fundamental about ordinary room temperature physics that isn't understood!
2) Physics has extrapolated far too far beyond reliable experimental data. A good example is the idea that we can explore things that happened 10^(-30) sec after the big bang! Theory that is based on such extrapolation may just turn out to be wrong, and if other theories have been built on top, those are going to crash and burn too!
David, I basically agree with this, except for the anticipated collapse, which I think will be a lot different than many folks seem to think. Also, talking about collapse in this manner is probably exactly why folks get the impression psi has to do away with known physics to make it a reality, which is a total falsehood, imho. I don't think it does much for the psi proponent's cause, either. On the other hand, the basic framework/foundation of Quantum Field Theory (or the Standard Model) has been experimentally confirmed to significant degrees of precision. Likewise with General Relativity. However, we know they're both incomplete theories. I think it is a lot more likely psi/consciousness will require extended theory that completes the two major branches of physics (relativity and quantum theory) as folks like Dean Radin, Roger Nelson talk about, rather than collapse the "whole house of cards" (and an experimentally confirmed "house of cards" at that) as I keep hearing on this forum more and more.
Also, although I think it is wise to be wary of "extrapolations", I think you draw the wrong conclusions. When we extrapolate WAY back in time (like the 10^-30s you mention) towards the Big Bang we go further and further into higher-energy physics (GUTs, etc), which we understand less and less. In other words, it's not just an extrapolation of any one specific theory, as it is an appeal to higher-energy and not-as-well-understood physics. This is what I was trying to say in the Cosmology thread a ways back. It's a real concern, imho. However, if those "extrapolations" are wrong in that regime, that doesn't mean the framework of the two major branches of physics today - quantum theory and relativity - are going to "crash and burn". It just means we don't understand the higher-energy physics, which wouldn't be a big surprise to many physicists. I'm personally expecting to find out as much.
3) To be honest, I think that a lot of science has lost contact with reality.
David
I just hope you're not including Many Worlds (MWI) in this - the most down-to-earth theory ever, hehe ;-)
I do agree with this to some extent too, but I take on a different attitude. I rejoice that science is losing touch with the generally accepted view of reality, because the sooner they do, the better. Let me explain, because that probably sounds crazy, hehe.
On this forum, we all talk about how consciousness can never be fully modeled mathematically, that materialism is dead, that experimental empiricism can only go so far, and so on and so on. Well, we're finally all living in an age where science is having to confront the bounds of empirical ability and the limits of materialism! And, what do we do? Sit around and talk about the ills of science, almost like science is somehow evil. I personally prefer to view science today more like an infant entering a new realm which is totally unfamiliar. Of course, it doesn't know how to compose itself or conduct itself, let alone know exactly how to move forward. It's going to have to grope around and take many stabs in the dark, many of which will appear futile and not very well-executed. I'm personally excited to see science fumble and bumble around in today's exotic theories, because within that I see the greatest potential for it to open up to new ideas that were once anathema.
This is what science is beginning to go through in my opinion and it's beginning to lose its enamor with its current view of reality (materialism, experimental empiricism) and will eventually discover a new one. If you could view all of humanity symbolically as that allegorical infant, then the Dawkins and Schermer's of the world would be analogous to unconscious contents within the consciousness of every individual that always resist change and fears the unknown. I'm not sure we should damn science any more than we would damn an infant lost in a new environment. It's going through all the "growing pains" and exhibiting all the reactions to be expected as the overall conscious awareness humanity currently has about reality starts to expand. Can we really expect anything more? Do we really expect the transition out of materialism to be a smooth, effortless affair? Within mythology, transformations of consciousness are always accompanied by angels and demons
Anyhow, this age we live in looks to finally be a potential taking off point into a science of consciousness/psi. The willingness of scientists to let go of empiricism and extrapolate into realms that are never directly empirically accessible, even in principle (here in the form of the multiverse, etc) is in my opinion a baby step towards that - albeit one still tinged with materialism. (But, at least it finally and completely shrugged off positivism by doing so! More evidence of how the reality of science is indeed changing!). But, all of this is going to plant a seed that will ultimately be the end of materialism/reductionism as the dominant worldviews. Physicists are talking about things they never would have decades ago. They are considering new ideas. And, as we notice on here often, more and more are beginning to become open to psi and the idea that consciousness is somehow fundamental.
It's an exciting time. Science is going to play a big, pivotal role. Let's embrace it. ;-)
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