The Cursed Pit of Wretched Political Adulation

#22
I would prefer if you didn't think that reading a single slanted piece makes you understand everything. Anyone can read something about anything written with a political position. So what if you read The Zionist Story? There are hundreds of books and articles that counter that. You're just selectively electing to believe the story that confirms you world view, in which the main story is oppressors and oppressed. How juvenile and unworldly.
Listen, [censored per moderator request]. I lived in South Africa during apartheid. I know a racist, oppressive system when I see one. That all I know about Palestine is what's in The Zionist Story (a documentary, not a book, by the way) is merely your mistaken assumption. That you selectively elect to whitewash and deny oppression, and even to hold up the Zionists as "heroes or victims" is worse than juvenile; it's morally bankrupt. I've seen your political stripes, Eric, and whitewashing is your modus operandi. Sell your "it's complicated" story to somebody who's buying (it looks like it confirms David's world view quite nicely!). I'm not in the market for your B.S.
 
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#25
Listen, dickhead. I lived in South Africa during apartheid. I know a racist, oppressive system when I see one. That all I know about Palestine is what's in The Zionist Story (a documentary, not a book, by the way) is merely your mistaken assumption. That you selectively elect to whitewash and deny oppression, and even to hold up the Zionists as "heroes or victims" is worse than juvenile; it's morally bankrupt. I've seen your political stripes, Eric, and whitewashing is your modus operandi. Sell your "it's complicated" story to somebody who's buying (it looks like it confirms David's world view quite nicely!). I'm not in the market for your B.S.
Your quest for moral superiority while remaining a shallow fool doesn't impress me. Nor does whatever you've "seen". Now the blacks in SA want to kill the whites - and do - and take all their land and stuff - just as the Arabs would do to the Jews in Israel, as I said.

Go ahead and hate. I will continue to analyze and understand that humans are complex self-interested creatures for the most part and that the oppressed can easily become the oppressors.

So you don't live in SA anymore? I wonder why (not). So freedom fighter, have you ever picked up a weapon to fight an oppressor?
 
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#26
That the oppressed can easily become the oppressors is not in dispute: look at what happened with the Zionists - from victims of the Holocaust to victimisers of the Palestinians.

Now the blacks in SA want to kill the whites - and do - and take all their land and stuff - just as the Arabs would do to the Jews in Israel, as I said.
"Their" land. Apparently, in your view, once you steal something, it becomes legitimately yours. Politically, Eric, you side with bullies, because, politically, you are one: you resort almost immediately to insult and denigration of those with different views to your own. From "juvenile" and "unworldly" to "shallow fool" questing for "moral superiority", all of these sort of taunts get repeated every time you get into a political discussion with somebody who doesn't share your views. So, tell me: why would I want to impress a political bully?

(In fairness, on non-political topics, you are quite reasonable and interesting to read.)
 
#27
It's also worth pointing out that the transition in South Africa from Apartheid to genuine democracy was marked by a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which was widely seen to be successful, and which sheds a very different light on your implied contention that once a system of oppression is overturned, the oppressed will merely turn into oppressors.
 
#28
That the oppressed can easily become the oppressors is not in dispute: look at what happened with the Zionists - from victims of the Holocaust to victimisers of the Palestinians.



"Their" land. Apparently, in your view, once you steal something, it becomes legitimately yours. Politically, Eric, you side with bullies, because, politically, you are one: you resort almost immediately to insult and denigration of those with different views to your own. From "juvenile" and "unworldly" to "shallow fool" questing for "moral superiority", all of these sort of taunts get repeated every time you get into a political discussion with somebody who doesn't share your views. So, tell me: why would I want to impress a political bully?

(In fairness, on non-political topics, you are quite reasonable and interesting to read.)
Apparently in your view, people are to be punished, even unto death, for the actions of their ancestors. All humans are bullies. IMO, You're the worst kind. You try to hide your bullying behind cheap spirituality and a sanctimonious smile.
 
#29
Apparently in your view, people are to be punished, even unto death, for the actions of their ancestors.
With this, you demonstrate my point: you explicitly side with the bully. Your attitude seems to be something along these lines: "How awful that the descendants of a bully might have some of the spoils of the bully's wrongs taken back from them - after all, it was the bully who committed the wrongs, not those descendants. As for the descendants of the bullied - fuck 'em. That's just the way the world works, folks! Toughen up, princesses!"

It's hard to believe that you can express this sort of attitude and not recognise the gross double-standard in it, but I've seen you do it enough on political issues in which injustice is at issue that it seems that you genuinely are blind to it.

Just to be clear: I wasn't condoning murder. I don't think that that's the way to right the wrongs of the past. But I do understand the frustration of many black South Africans who all these years after Apartheid ended are still relatively (and absolutely) impoverished and materially disadvantaged.

All humans are bullies.
I think that's an over-generalisation, but it does seem that often, abusers had originally been abused themselves. The idea - if I understand it correctly - behind enterprises like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission seems sound: to focus on breaking the cycle rather than on retribution.
 
#30
Apparently in your view, people are to be punished, even unto death, for the actions of their ancestors. All humans are bullies. IMO, You're the worst kind. You try to hide your bullying behind cheap spirituality and a sanctimonious smile.
I don’t agree with your interpretation of Laird’s view. Your “apparently” is in your head only imo.

And I think that your very wrong saying that “All humans are bullies”.

Some people are gentle souls, and would never purposefully hurt a fly. The vast majority of bullies have ‘good’ reason for acting like they do. Be it that they were themselves bullied at school, or at home, or a million other reasons.

People are generally good imo. If they are loved. If they experience anything but love their shaping begins. By ‘shaping’ I guess I meant ‘trial’, not the legal type, rather the test type. It is very difficult to bring up kids. You think you’re doing the best but still feel guilty when they don’t appear to turn out the way you would like, in spite of your ‘best efforts’.

Are babies ‘evil’, or do they become shaped by their environment? I think that we jump into the developing ‘world play’ when we incarnate on earth. When playing our part we are subject to a fucking amazing array of experiences, imagined or real. I don’t know how our ego relates to our soul, are they friend or foe?

Why are there psychopaths? Who knows, but are all psychopaths violent or disruptive? In nature we occasionally see animals that are the equivalent. Don’t we? Maybe there are good reasons for them. Who knows? We are so backward thinking, but instead of just saying “I don’t know” we love to think we have a sensible explanation. Occasionally we have insight, but not too often.

Of course there are bullies, but Laird isn’t one of them imo. I’m not saying he isn’t capable of being one, given the right set of circumstances. I don’t know him well enough. I was sometimes cruel to animals when younger, something I very much regret. Now I make every attempt to be kind to animals as well as people. But I still find myself falling down in some aspects.

It’s life. It’s all amazing. We’re all just trying our best.

I do appreciate everyone, yes Eric included, who posts on this forum. Is such appreciation ‘cheap spirituality’? Is my smile ‘sanctimoneous’ too? Maybe, maybe not. I really don’t know. And neither does anyone else.
 
#32
If only you knew the irony in your statement.
Look at the evidence David.
If a group decides that it must use force to get its way completely - usually for religious reasons - there has to be a way to deal with them. The only option really is containment. I don't see any irony in what I wrote.

David
 
#33
If a group decides that it must use force to get its way completely - usually for religious reasons - there has to be a way to deal with them. The only option really is containment. I don't see any irony in what I wrote.

David
The irony is that you’re painting the victims as the aggressors. The overwhelming evidence is in the other direction.
 
#34
With this, you demonstrate my point: you explicitly side with the bully. Your attitude seems to be something along these lines: "How awful that the descendants of a bully might have some of the spoils of the bully's wrongs taken back from them - after all, it was the bully who committed the wrongs, not those descendants. As for the descendants of the bullied - fuck 'em. That's just the way the world works, folks! Toughen up, princesses!"

It's hard to believe that you can express this sort of attitude and not recognise the gross double-standard in it, but I've seen you do it enough on political issues in which injustice is at issue that it seems that you genuinely are blind to it..
I'm blind to "it"? That really means a lot coming from a person that can't see that their favorite "victims" in the past have been the aggressor. In fact, there are no tribes, cultures, societies on earth that didn't take from others somewhere in the past.

I've seen people like you F' up matters - meaning cause long term hardship for all involved - all over the world because you come riding in on your high horse with your naïve notions of human nature and interject yourself into situations based on a point in time perspective on aggressor/victim lines.

Just to be clear: I wasn't condoning murder. I don't think that that's the way to right the wrongs of the past. But I do understand the frustration of many black South Africans who all these years after Apartheid ended are still relatively (and absolutely) impoverished and materially disadvantaged...
No. Of course you don't advocate or condone murder. You're far too morally superior for that. But when it occurs as a easily foreseeable consequence of your position and actions, you just shrug and make an excuse and move on to your next crusade.

I think that's an over-generalisation, but it does seem that often, abusers had originally been abused themselves. The idea - if I understand it correctly - behind enterprises like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission seems sound: to focus on breaking the cycle rather than on retribution.
This isn't child pop psychology we're discussing here and the fact that you employ it confirms that you are naïve.. This is the history of humanity; which has always been a war against competing cultures.
 
#35
No. Of course you don't advocate or condone murder. You're far too morally superior for that. But when it occurs as a easily foreseeable consequence of your position and actions, you just shrug and make an excuse and move on to your next crusade.
Imo, that’s better than using macho superiority bullshit as an ‘excuse’. Surely you can’t complain too much about ‘moral superiority’, when you have an even shittier excuse?
 
#36
Imo, that’s better than using macho superiority bullshit as an ‘excuse’. Surely you can’t complain too much about ‘moral superiority’, when you have an even shittier excuse?
The words of a thumb sucking weakling. You wouldn't even exist but for people like me.

When you're physically threatened, you call someone like me to do the dirty work. That's what allows you to walk around with your starry eyed ideals - and to ignore reality.
 
#37
The irony is that you’re painting the victims as the aggressors. The overwhelming evidence is in the other direction.
Well Eric explained that his family originates in one of the Arab communities in the Middle East, so I think perhaps we should listen to what he has to say a bit. In years gone by, I used to read of accounts of suicide bombers in Israel ans equate them to the Buddhist monks who would burn themselves to death to protest against the South Vietnamese leader (but without hurting anyone else). However, I am afraid I don't feel the same about this any more - it isn't clear that they would accept anything less than the total surrender of Israel. I mean, at one point they had Jimmy Carter trying to get them to agree, and even he couldn't achieve peace.

David
 
#38
Well Eric explained that his family originates in one of the Arab communities in the Middle East, so I think perhaps we should listen to what he has to say a bit. In years gone by, I used to read of accounts of suicide bombers in Israel ans equate them to the Buddhist monks who would burn themselves to death to protest against the South Vietnamese leader (but without hurting anyone else). However, I am afraid I don't feel the same about this any more - it isn't clear that they would accept anything less than the total surrender of Israel. I mean, at one point they had Jimmy Carter trying to get them to agree, and even he couldn't achieve peace.

David
So we should listen to Eric, because he claims to be half Arab from somewhere in the Middle East, but grew up in America? Ffs David!

Get a room. ;)

You’ve said all that before. Restating it doesn’t make it more convincing.
Even Jimmy Carter!!! Wow.
 
#39
Well Eric explained that his family originates in one of the Arab communities in the Middle East, so I think perhaps we should listen to what he has to say a bit. In years gone by, I used to read of accounts of suicide bombers in Israel ans equate them to the Buddhist monks who would burn themselves to death to protest against the South Vietnamese leader (but without hurting anyone else). However, I am afraid I don't feel the same about this any more - it isn't clear that they would accept anything less than the total surrender of Israel. I mean, at one point they had Jimmy Carter trying to get them to agree, and even he couldn't achieve peace.

David
David,
People also forget that a lot of the issue in that region has to do with Israel possessing the Temple Mount (the Jewish name for it) that happens to simultaneously be a Muslim holy site. Many Muslims cannot stand for it being in Jewish hands. They are willing to destroy Israel to put it back in Muslim hands. They will not share the site.

Another aspect of the situation that people don't want to accept is what the history of life under Islam has been like for non-Muslims. My grandparents described the executions (and outright slaughters circa 1915), the lack of rights/second class citizenship, the literal sale into slavery (still occurs in Muslim Africa and hard core Islam in the MENA), the forced conversions to Islam and the ever persistent jizya (a tax that non-Muslims must pay to exist in Muslim controlled lands).
It has always be thus for non-Muslims (excepting Iraq under Saddam's rule, which was actually kind to non-Muslims and the same for Assad's Syria - I have relatives who still live there and are fighting in the Syrian Army against the Sunni invaders).

Why would Israelis subject themselves to any of that? Why would anyone?

This is just like the convo on a different thread in which Michael P found himself defending - or at least excusing - cannibalism, head hunting and mass regularly scheduled human sacrifice - and the wars to capture those to sacrifice - just because he wants to inflict his oppressor/oppressed ideology on modern affluent democratic societies. The moral equivalence and lack of historic understanding is staggering, but emotion based ideology is impervious to reason and facts and accepts no grey areas. Self righteousness is a problem.
 
#40
So we should listen to Eric, because he claims to be half Arab from somewhere in the Middle East, but grew up in America? Ffs David!
Steve, we have to assume that when people write about themselves on the forum, they are telling the truth - unless of course there is evidence to the contrary. It is decidedly discourteous to question what Eric has written without evidence.

What he writes is not implausible, I have read accounts from Muslims (sorry I don't have a link to hand) who migrated to the West decades ago, railing against the influx of their own people now, bringing back the old inflexibilities and tensions.

David
 
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