The death of Robin Williams

[Frank Matera]

Apologies. You are right. I have edited my posts.

No probs at all. :)

For what it's worth I am every bit as frustrated with most of the people within PSI and everything around it including the skeptics. Neither side does the subject any favours in my opinion.

Even on here... I disappear for a few months and come back and it's pretty much the same conversations. Nothing ever really moves.

It's easier to just not care anymore than it is to care and do something about it.

 

[Obiwan]

No probs at all. :)

For what it's worth I am every bit as frustrated with most of the people within PSI and everything around it including the skeptics. Neither side does the subject any favours in my opinion.

Even on here... I disappear for a few months and come back and it's pretty much the same conversations. Nothing ever really moves.

It's easier to just not care anymore than it is to care and do something about it.

I'm not sure there is anything you could do about it Frank.

On the other hand there is always the crowd of people who read the posts but who don't necessarily comment. Don't think your efforts have no value, just because you can't see it right now :)

 

[John Maguire]

Has no one here heard about and/or read about the "Family Guy Premonition/Synchronicity"? I'm a little surprised I guess. So maybe no individual psychic predicted it (or maybe one did) but instead perhaps it was pulled out of the "psychic" collective unconscious and manifested in a cartoon show. The episode was written weeks in advance. BTW the OP is classic cynical Steve, which I've come to think of as rather cute:

 

[ghost]

Has no one here heard about and/or read about the "Family Guy Premonition/Synchronicity"? I'm a little surprised I guess. So maybe no individual psychic predicted it (or maybe one did) but instead perhaps it was pulled out of the "psychic" collective unconscious and manifested in a cartoon show. The episode was written weeks in advance. BTW the OP is classic cynical Steve, which I've come to think of as rather cute:

I'm surprised they haven't banned Family guy for it's "garbage" content. But apparently there are more viewers who eat up such garbage than there are viewers who have decent taste in entertainment.

 

[John Maguire]

I'm surprised they haven't banned Family guy for it's "garbage" content. But apparently there are more viewers who eat up such garbage than there are viewers who have decent taste in entertainment.

OK...I don't like Family Guy either. I haven't paid attention to it for years. This seems like an interesting time to pay attention to it for just a minute maybe, even if it is garbage. Philip Dick's book VALIS is all about finding transcendence in the trash. How do you explain this synchronicity? Doesn't this suffice as a potentially isolated occurrence of "psychic premonition"?

 

[ghost]

OK...I don't like Family Guy either. I haven't paid attention to it for years. This seems like an interesting time to pay attention to it for just a minute maybe, even if it is garbage. Philip Dick's book VALIS is all about finding transcendence in the trash. How do you explain this synchronicity? Doesn't this suffice as a potentially isolated occurrence of "psychic premonition"?

If you want to think that it's psychic in nature, be my guest. But it is my opinion that some atheist trash just got lucky. You may not realize it, but that is the end-game of atheism --- suicide. Atheists really want to encourage people to commit suicide even though most of them don't have the balls to just admit it. Just watch over the next few years, you will see atheists try to push their suicide-cult agenda. They will be revealed for the pile of human garbage that they are.

 

[Patty_Molor]

I'm surprised they haven't banned Family guy for it's "garbage" content. But apparently there are more viewers who eat up such garbage than there are viewers who have decent taste in entertainment.

We could put you at the head of the commitee for "moral values" and you decide what we get to watch and think about. It seems like that's right up your alley.

 

[steve001]

If you want to think that it's psychic in nature, be my guest. But it is my opinion that some atheist trash just got lucky. You may not realize it, but that is the end-game of atheism --- suicide. Atheists really want to encourage people to commit suicide even though most of them don't have the balls to just admit it. Just watch over the next few years, you will see atheists try to push their suicide-cult agenda. They will be revealed for the pile of human garbage that they are.

Lol ghost, you are the most funny person on this forum. We could bring back the Hays Code ghost.

 

[John Maguire]

If you want to think that it's psychic in nature, be my guest. But it is my opinion that some atheist trash just got lucky. You may not realize it, but that is the end-game of atheism --- suicide. Atheists really want to encourage people to commit suicide even though most of them don't have the balls to just admit it. Just watch over the next few years, you will see atheists try to push their suicide-cult agenda. They will be revealed for the pile of human garbage that they are.

This entire thread, whether tongue-in-cheek or not, was asking whether RW's suicide had been "predicted" "on the record" by someone, anyone. You can't even consider this as an example of that? Your line "just got lucky" is pretty much the skeptical catch-all for all things paranormal -- it's a classically lazy rebuttal.

Atheists want people to commit suicide? Can't say I'd go that far. I do agree their metaphysics is myopic and severely limits people's imagination/creative spark, and does help create a rather craven & uncaring society, but I stop short of the "suicide cult" angle, even though I am familiar/understand the argument -- but that goes down a whole conspiratorial rabbit hole that will derail this entire thread.

 

[Arouet]

but I stop short of the "suicide cult" angle, even though I am familiar/understand the argument -- but that goes down a whole conspiratorial rabbit hole that will derail this entire thread.

Maybe start a new thread - I'm curious as to what you think the argument is? How one gets from "I don't believe in any deities" to "therefore everyone should commit suicide"?

 

[EthanT]

Maybe start a new thread - I'm curious as to what you think the argument is? How one gets from "I don't believe in any deities" to "therefore everyone should commit suicide"?

I don't understand how people cannot understand the argument. I don't agree with it on a personal basis, but I can certainly see the argument and understand how some people would feel that way. Is it really any harder to imagine why people would kill themselves over loss of the sacred than it is over loss of job/family/money/etc. Take the meaning out of people's lives and it, well ... takes meaning out of living. What's there to get?

 

[Arouet]

I don't understand how people cannot understand the argument. I don't agree with it on a personal basis, but I can certainly see the argument and understand how some people would feel that way. Is it really any harder to imagine why people would kill themselves over loss of the sacred than it is over loss of job/family/money/etc. Take the meaning out of people's lives and it, well ... takes meaning out of living. What's there to get?

That wasn't ghost's argument. It was:

Atheists really want to encourage people to commit suicide even though most of them don't have the balls to just admit it.

 

[Patty_Molor]

I don't understand how people cannot understand the argument. I don't agree with it on a personal basis, but I can certainly see the argument and understand how some people would feel that way. Is it really any harder to imagine why people would kill themselves over loss of the sacred than it is over loss of job/family/money/etc. Take the meaning out of people's lives and it, well ... takes meaning out of living. What's there to get?

My guess is that those who deny spirtiuality still feel meaning but attribute it to some biological process within the body. So they can say, "I'm an atheist and I still have a sense of meaning. I'm not suicidial." Meanwhile of course everything is at one with all that is whether you realize it intellectually or not, atheists, terrorists and suicides included. My guess is that suicide and its likelihood in any particular individual is less driven by the prescence of lack of a belief in god than by the suffering that can be generated in the mind as shown for instance in the enneagram system. When considered spiritually the enneagram can give us a peek into how the ego and mind generated processes can distance ourselves from nearness to source, which in my mind would be a better indicator of the likelihood of suicide than a belief in god. A belief is just a belief and none of them are any better than any others.

There is a level of understanding and discourse on this forum that borders on the childish (not you EthanT.) People would do well to open their minds and explore new ideas a little bit before digging their bunkers and hunkering down in their wonderful conception cacoons.

 

[EthanT]

That wasn't ghost's argument. It was:

Well I was making my own "argument" on the general "suicide/materialism/atheism" theme on here. Obviously, I don't agree with Ghost, but I wonder if he really meant it as literally as it sounded. Well, knowing Ghost, maybe he did, lol.

 

[EthanT]

My guess is that those who deny spirtiuality still feel meaning but attribute it to some biological process within the body. So they can say, "I'm an atheist and I still have a sense of meaning. I'm not suicidial." Meanwhile of course everything is at one with all that is whether you realize it intellectually or not, atheists, terrorists and suicides included. My guess is that suicide and its likelihood in any particular individual is less driven by the prescence of lack of a belief in god than by the suffering that can be generated in the mind as shown for instance in the enneagram system. When considered spiritually the enneagram can give us a peek into how the ego and mind generated processes can distance ourselves from nearness to source, which in my mind would be a better indicator of the likelihood of suicide than a belief in god. A belief is just a belief and none of them are any better than any others.

There is a level of understanding and discourse on this forum that borders on the childish (not you EthanT.) People would do well to open their minds and explore new ideas a little bit before digging their bunkers and hunkering down in their wonderful conception cacoons.

Hi Patty, what's the enneagram system? Sounds really familiar, but I can't place it for some reason! Thanks ;-)

 

[Patty_Molor]

Hi Patty, what's the enneagram system? Sounds really familiar, but I can't place it for some reason! Thanks ;-)

On one level it is just a nine pointed shape. But it's also an ancient system of personality typing that was brought through varying generations initially in modern times by Gurdjieff (with his exposure to various occult schools) and then through Ichazo and Naranjo. It can be used as a tool for ego exploration and personal psychology but it can be extended into the spiritual realm and is by authors like Eli Jaxon-Bear and A.H. Almaas.

But at its most basic it is just a system that breaks down nine basic personality types and the relationships among them. Can be pretty powerful stuff.

 

[Arouet]

Well I was making my own "argument" on the general "suicide/materialism/atheism" theme on here. Obviously, I don't agree with Ghost, but I wonder if he really meant it as literally as it sounded. Well, knowing Ghost, maybe he did, lol.

I think he does really believe it (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a troll). As for your argument - I honestly have no idea how many people have committed suicide based on depression due to losing their faith in a deity. Probably some. I've certainly said that people who depend on their belief in a deity so much for their sense of happiness and wellbeing should not engage in discussions or deliberately expose themselves to arguments that risk changing those beliefs.

Such people, I think, have been indoctrinated to believe that happiness, meaning and purpose for their lives can only derive from an external source. Any close examination of the issue quickly reveals that to be false - but some people are quite attached to that position.

 

[EthanT]

As for your argument - I honestly have no idea how many people have committed suicide based on depression due to losing their faith in a deity

That's not really crucial to my argument, as it wasn't really the point I was making, which was just that if you strip away (too much) meaning from somebody's life, they might ask themselves, "What's the point of going on with it all?". You might do a lot more than ask, you might really feel that way. And, this is a perfectly natural reaction. (And, what gives life meaning will depend on the individual) Anyhow, I suspect many more people think about suicide than actually commit suicide, which might be a huge jump for many.

One of the biggest questions we can ask ourselves is what is the meaning of life. Either, you can find an answer for yourself, or you can't. And, if you can't, it's quite natural to ask yourself why you even go on with it all. That's why Watts (quoting another philosopher I can't remember the name of) said the ultimate question of philosophy is whether, or not, to commit suicide.

Anyhow, when it comes to atheism, this is how apply the whole "suicide" thing, i.e. more as a philosophical question. I think anybody that tends towards spirituality will see atheism as rather destitute, as far as meaningful worldviews go, and would question the relative value/meaning of life. Is that really all that surprising?

Such people, I think, have been indoctrinated to believe that happiness, meaning and purpose for their lives can only derive from an external source. Any close examination of the issue quickly reveals that to be false - but some people are quite attached to that position.

I agree, that's a good point. I'm reading Jacque Valles' book Messengers of Deception right now and he gives a similar warning about the UFO sub-culture, as he saw it in the 70s. In a society as spiritually devoid as ours, where many can no longer place their faith in the traditional Western views of God, the UFO sub-culture represents a group that has transferred the "need for the sacred" unto some imagined civilization in the sky. They're still looking for meaning/happiness "out there" from something external to themselves that will "save them" from their daily lives.

Anyhow, the point he makes is that this a naïve view of ufology, specifically, a negative aspect of the nuts-and-bolts view, or what he calls the Extraterrestrial hypothesis. Similarly, it could well be argued the position you state above is a naïve view of religion/God.

 

[Sciborg_S_Patel]

I don't understand how people cannot understand the argument. I don't agree with it on a personal basis, but I can certainly see the argument and understand how some people would feel that way. Is it really any harder to imagine why people would kill themselves over loss of the sacred than it is over loss of job/family/money/etc. Take the meaning out of people's lives and it, well ... takes meaning out of living. What's there to get?

I often wonder if the skeptic movement is either too shortsighted to consider the nihilistic implications of their paradigm, or just figures that the number of people afflicted by depression (possibly to the point of suicide) can be filed under acceptable losses to accomplish the apparent Utopia the "Age of Reason" will bring about.

Perhaps the chaoskampf against immaterialism is less about improving the world and more about retrocausal revenge against religious people and/or beliefs that troubled them in their youth. (Plus some in-group status selection where one becomes "intelligent" simply through disbelief?)

IIRC Tart has suggested some might even be so conditioned into associating immaterialism with religion induced sexual guilt that even the tiniest hint of Psi would have them stricken with terror.

 

[EthanT]

I often wonder if the skeptic movement is either too shortsighted to consider the nihilistic implications of their paradigm, or just figures that the number of people afflicted by depression (possibly to the point of suicide) can be filed under acceptable losses to accomplish the apparent Utopia the "Age of Reason" will bring about.

Perhaps the chaoskampf against immaterialism is less about improving the world and more about retrocausal revenge against religious people and/or beliefs that troubled them in their youth. (Plus some in-group status selection where one becomes "intelligent" simply through disbelief?)

I think there are probably a lot of reasons to be an atheist, or promote atheism - the second part of what you said above definitely qualifies, as I have had more than one admit that to me. I think all the reasons ultimaltey boil down to materialism, meant in the deeper sense of being cut-off from the spiritual, in that we can't "see" it, or experience it anymore. As far as the bigger issue and the ramifications mentioned in your first part, I suspect many are probably just shortsighted like you said. I think the majority of people following any worldview probably understand little as far as ramifications of that worldview - be it atheism, or even Idealism!

I think atheists and religious folks alike are probably far removed from the meaning and implications of their paradigms. I still remember one of the few times I have ever gone to Church. This was with an x-girlfriend who was an aspiring actress and it was a somewhat trendy church in LA where a few other well-known actors would make appearances at times. Anyhow, the pastor was brilliant and I really liked what he said. I brought it up afterwards to her and our friends and it was clear real quick that none of them even listened! I got the impression it was a Sunday morning Hollywood fashion show more than anything. I was like, why even bother going.