Discussion in 'Other Stuff' started by Michael2, Mar 16, 2016.
What exactly has President Putin done wrong in your opinion?
David, in other areas of debate on this forum you and I are mostly aligned but I'm constantly amazed at your attraction to pathological narcissists like Trump, Putin and Farage. I'm guessing you have a soft spot for Berlusconi too. I don't need to list their faults - this thread and the Brexit thread has enough material to show you what you refuse to see: these are nasty people who appeal to the worst of our base instincts. Besides, it would be pointless to post any of the abundance of articles illustrating the point: you have and will continue to ignore the obvious and defend Trump/Farage/Putin to the last.
Thankfully the public seem to be waking up. UKIP was demolished in the recent elections and Trump has record low ratings - even Hurm has given up on him. Putin has the advantage of his Kremlin legacy for dealing with dissent in his own country's media: something I bet Trump would love to emulate.
What about this article does not scream propaganda and hypocrisy? What emotionally charged assertions here were backed up with details?
Maybe Russia could be more free and open than it is now, but what specific great evil has Putin done?
I see. So we must all share your judgement about what is honest reporting? What are your unimpeachable sources? Alt-Right News perhaps? Talk about propaganda.
Seriously, I've just paused writing this reply for half an hour to browse the internet for some possible "independent" and "reliable" sources and all I can find are either mainstream sites or Alt-Right style sites. So, it seems to me that you have to go with your own instincts. My instincts tell me to avoid the hate speech sites promoting Islamophobia, xenophobia, homophobia and those that look like publicity fronts for the NRA.
You didn't really answer my question. President Putin has intervened in two countries (Georgia and The Ukraine) that were former members of the USSR. In both cases, the Russian leaning population in those countries were suffering military attack by the government. Internally President Putin may be fairly unpleasant, but The rest of the world deals with far, far worse regimes, and you know it.
Are you going to tell me that The US would stand by and do nothing if something similar were happening to Americans somewhere? Both Georgia and The Ukraine were encouraged down the path they took by shadowy Western forces, who seemed to want confrontation with Moscow - probably as a way to keep the US arms industry happy.
UKIP has not disappeared, but a large number of us decided to vote Tory to keep Brexit - we will be back because we are the only party that genuinely represents the poor in Britain. Maybe Nigel will return as UKIP leader - I hope so, because he was one of the few politicians to speak sense about the Ukrainian and Syrian crises:
The fact that you might wish to bet that President Trump would like to do do something unpleasant, is not really an argument!
The big flaw in your argument is that the Russian intervention in Ukraine didn't make things better. In fact it is deliberately set up so as to produce ongoing instability, as well as vastly increasing human deaths and suffering.
OK, I know I said it was pointless posting articles to illustrate the point but, since you insist, David. Here are a few. I have absolutely no doubt that you will dismiss them as propaganda, however.
Is Trump getting senile?
Why on earth would the west want a conflict with Russia? What possible endgame would be considered a 'win' from the worst case scenario of a nuclear exchange? Because I have news for you, the billions of dollars these companies would make will mean sweet FA in a world reduced to a radioactive wasteland.
Russia's economy is the size of Italy's and it's military is inferior to the vastly more modern NATO members. However, what gives it parity with NATO is its nuclear weapons. So yes, it is very much in Putin's interests to project a strong man image.
Is this you trying to justify backing his actions? I consider the murder of journalists (of which dozens have been), opposition leaders (Nemtsov), and dissidents (Litvenyenko) to be among the worst qualities of the worst and most tyrannical regimes. Your response, which I have no doubt you'll levy at me will be a whataboutery bonanza of bad things the US has done. Which is, ironically, what the Soviet Union used to do to deflect from its own human rights abuses. "And you are lynching negroes" was a popular one, for instance.
I think I'd take a thousand years of Bush and Reagan over Trump at this point.
You can try as you like to 'balance the books' and compare what the US has done in the past few decades with Russia's record. They don't come close.
Face up to it. The U.S. has become the world's number one creator of chaos!
The purges, the gulags, the mass slaughter. Russia and the former USSR is a graveyard for around 60 million slaughtered by their own governments. Then there's the various satellite states that held their populations under the iron heel of communist totalitarianism. East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary et al. All part of a network of an entire continent where any dissent was punished, any attempts to moderate (i.e. Czechoslovakia) was crushed, a police state archipelago.
Now, accept that this was part of cold war power balancing between two competing hegemons, and that the US is hardly innocent. But to absolve Russia is ludicrous, they have a modern history drenched in blood and tyranny of their own making, and continue to do so today.
The US might not be perfect, but a simple comparison between it and Russia throws up a lot of differences. In the US you can criticise Trump, Obama, et al without any repercussions. In Russia, protest in suppressed, dissent can cost you your life. One can complain all they like about the US being a force of evil but there is little risk of your morning cup of you being gunned down on the steps of the Kremlin, or being amongst scores of President criticising journalists who have been killed
Note that I said 'the past few decades', Stalin was before that and your estimate of 60million is one extreme, the other end is 3 million. Either way it's insanity of course.
I have stated my impression of Putin on the forum before, so don't wish to do it again. The important thing to note, is that Russia is far less likely to interfere in countries outside their part of the world. Also, it will demand someone tough as leader of such a country, if he were not, he wouldn't last long in that position. The thing is, I listen to him speak. Not second hand, I have seen how he never seems to lose his composure. How he tells of the US aggression and lack of heart, not in as many words of course, but that is what I get from listening to him.
It is obvious to anyone. The US has lost the plot.
They have military bases all over the world, they bully and try to manipulate every other country. At least the Russians mainly 'self harmed'. How many non Americans have died at the hand of US troops and bombs, and if not US directly, by the hand of their lapdogs, including the UK of course.
So when the US complains about Russia and says it is a great threat to the world, I and many many others think otherwise. Take a mirror and take a good long look at yourselves!
We've gotten rather proficient at destroying the village to "save it"
This Pastor thinks Trump has been raised up to battle the globalists because a more conventional president would "get eaten alive" by them.
Heh, why doesn't god just stop the supposedly horrible globalists itself?
INTERCEPTED PODCAST: GLENN GREENWALD ON THE NEW COLD WAR
Why is the latest NK ICBM launch such a big deal? They've already launched at least two satellites into orbit which overfly the U.S. several times each day. Launching a 200 kg satellite proves the capability of ICBM does it not?
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