The end ofcivilisations

#1
It has always been something of a mystery why past civilisations have ended.

I can't help thinking that Western Democratic civilisation is nearing its end. It seems that so many people in charge are choosing to make perverse decisions, that I wonder if there is a process involving non-physical actors playing itself out - that may be an awkward phrasing but I mean something beyond normal human folly at work.

Does anyone else agree?
 
#3
I estimate the crumbling of the British Empire was approximately 50 years ahead of the fall of the American Empire.

Mainstream Media always seeks to destroy your beneficial, natural pattern recognition software, but you can regain it if you turn stop consuming that poison and perform independant historical study.
 
#4
It has always been something of a mystery why past civilisations have ended.

I can't help thinking that Western Democratic civilisation is nearing its end.
Things looked pretty bleak at times during WWII, and during the cold war, and civilization survived somehow. I think there is still room for hope eventhough the problem now is much more insidious coming from within as it is.

It seems that so many people in charge are choosing to make perverse decisions, that I wonder if there is a process involving non-physical actors playing itself out - that may be an awkward phrasing but I mean something beyond normal human folly at work.
To understand what is happening in the physical world you have to understand it from the spiritual perspective. But it can be more complicated than just good vs evil. Karma is often involved. For example it could be leaders who screwed things up in the 20th century coming back trying to do better and botching things up again. Personally I hesitate to speculate about it because some people are quick to jump to using religious/spiritual arguments to label political opponents as evil. History has shown that can make a bad situation much much worse.
Does anyone else agree?
 
#8
lol

Sorry. That's the deal I'm working on! My best friend from High School lives in Manitou Springs, right on a shoulder of Pikes Peak. I send him S.O. stuff. I spend a week with him every August to escape the Texas heat and pester him about it constantly. But I can't get him on board.

He makes $350,000 per year doing medical I.T., and could easily afford a cave nearby, but all he cares about is smoking couture super-weed and playing with his grandchildren.
 
#9
Well, I think it's fair to say this plane of existence is at least relatively entropic. So it could just be the way of things. A cyclical version of this is the basic idea behind the Hindu Yugas or World Ages.

Yuga, in Hindu cosmology, an age of humankind. Each yuga is progressively shorter than the preceding one, corresponding to a decline in the moral and physical state of humanity. Four such yugas ... make up the mahayuga (“great yuga”), and 2,000 mahayugas make up the basic cosmic cycle, the kalpa. The first yuga (Krita) was an age of perfection lasting 1,728,000 years. The fourth and most-degenerate yuga (Kali) is the present age, which began in 3102 BCE and will last 432,000 years. At the close of the Kali yuga, the world will be destroyed, to be re-created after a period of quiescence as the cycle resumes again. [source]

Perhaps there are micro Yugas constantly at play.
 
#10
It has always been something of a mystery why past civilisations have ended.

I can't help thinking that Western Democratic civilisation is nearing its end. It seems that so many people in charge are choosing to make perverse decisions, that I wonder if there is a process involving non-physical actors playing itself out - that may be an awkward phrasing but I mean something beyond normal human folly at work.

Does anyone else agree?

This is hopeful:


https://dontdivideus.com/

Dear fellow citizens

In the wake of the horrifying and brutal killing of George Floyd, many in the UK expressed heartfelt solidarity; widespread protests showed a genuine commitment to opposing racism. Since then, however, activists, corporations and institutions seem to have seized the opportunity to exploit Floyd’s death to promote an ideological agenda that threatens to undermine British race relations.


The power of this ideology lies in the fear it inspires in those who would otherwise speak out, whatever their ethnicity. But speak out we must. We must oppose and expose the racial division being sown in the name of anti-racism.


The consequences of this toxic, racialised agenda are counter-productive and serious. We are all being divided by tactics and narratives many of us know to be untrue:


  • By splitting society into black lives or white lives, racial identity is being used to define who we all are and how we should fight injustice, as opposed to building a united movement to improve life for everyone.
  • Those who favour the identity-based politics of grievance and academic critical race theory are redefining racism. The achievements of civil rights movements in the past – that effected positive material impacts on the lives of ethnic minorities and increased equal treatment – are now being denied and undermined by those who claim racism is on the rise.
  • Demands that millions of people accept uncritically a prescriptive ‘white privilege’ agenda or be dubbed ignorant, racist or in denial is creating new tensions.
  • Under soulless acronyms such as BAME and POC, all ethnic minorities are robbed of individual agency, and assumed to be victims of injustice.
  • Free speech is being eroded by a McCarthyite culture of conformity in which to question the new dogma means to risk one’s livelihood and reputation.
  • Calls for the wholesale destruction of historical statues, symbols and works of art are fuelling an unhealthy war against the past and stirring up culture wars in the present.

  • An obsessive focus on the impact of colonialism threatens to turn history into a morality tale, rather than a complex, three-dimensional understanding of the past.
  • The common conflation of the issue of race in the US with the UK (in relation to criminal justice, for example) is unhelpful as it makes it difficult to discuss our specific historical circumstances and the contemporary challenges we face.

We are committed to supporting open-minded, fact-based investigation into the roots of our many social problems but reject simplistic explanations that reduce all injustice to racial factors.


We are dismayed at the moral cowardice of political and cultural institutions that refuse to speak out in defence of tolerant citizens who are being targeted as though their skin colour is synonymous with ‘unconscious’ bigotry.


We oppose the notion of collective guilt, and support the goals of those who have struggled to ensure that individuals are judged by the content of the character and not the colour of their skin.


We reject the proposition that the UK is inherently racist in 2020, with racial prejudice embedded into our educational, cultural and legal institutions. We salute the struggles of earlier generations of civil rights activists and the progress they made in defeating racist discrimination and attitudes.


We want a genuine movement to fight for equality of treatment. Where racism exists, it should be unapologetically challenged. We oppose those ideologues who seek to irrevocably damage our society by hijacking this important cause. We also oppose the opportunistic far right groups who are already exploiting this new climate of fear and disunity.


We will not be divided – by reactionary racists or culture warriors – who refuse to see us as individuals beyond our skin colour.

Signed

Janella Ajeigbe, headteacher


Katharine Birbalsingh, headteacher


Ben Cobley, author, The Tribe


William Clouston, party leader, The Social Democratic Party


Andrew Doyle, writer; comedian


Dr Rakib Ehsan, research fellow, HJS


Simon Evans, comedian


Dr Ashley Frawley, sociologist


Inaya Folerin-Iman, writer; free speech activist


Francis Foster, comedian


Claire Fox, director, Academy of Ideas


Tarjinder Gill, teacher; All In Britain


Manick Govinda, independent arts consultant


Ben Habib, businessman; co-founder, Unlocked; former MEP


Courtney Hamilton, writer


Ash Hirani, South East Hindu Association


Ed Husain, author The House of Islam: A Global History


Ike Ijeh, architect; writer


Christina Jordan, former MEP, South West England


Esther K, YouTuber; author, Graduating Into Adulthood


Lesley Katon, campaigner; creative & communications director


Ramsha Khan, student journalist


Vishal Khatri, aviation professional


Konstantin Kisin, comedian


Kulvinder Singh Manik, GP


Patsy Murrell, Project Manager


Mercy Muroki, political commentator; student


Masimba Musodza, writer


Sarah Peace, artist


Bhimji Pindoria, president, South East Hindu Association


Helen Pluckrose, editor-in-chief, Areo


Calvin Robinson, school leader; teacher


Dr Alka Sehgal Cuthbert, educator; writer


Elizabeth Smith, writer


Professor Doug Stokes, director, Centre for Advanced International Studies


Zuby, musician; rapper; podcast host; author
 
#11
I think what we are seeing playing out is whether humanity as a species is intelligent enough to keep civilization moving forward.

Will we be duped by disinformation in to forgetting why we have the Constitution and Bill of Rights in the US?

Will we forget the hard lessons we learned during the bloody history of humankind and be condemned to repeat them?

Can we study facts and let them guide us rather than emotions inflamed by manipulative politicians and journalists?

I don't know. I hope so.

If Trump is reelected collapse may be delayed by another four years.

After that I have no idea.

I don't think we are facing a technological collapse.

I think we are facing potentially a big step backwards in civilization: basic human rights, and the rule of law.

We have already lost what everyone used to agree was basic human right: freedom of speech. People are afraid of losing their jobs for expressing mainstream views. You can't even say men and women are biologically different.

And in the US democracy is in jeopardy from bureaucratic coups and vote fraud.
 
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#12
I think what we are seeing playing out is whether humanity as a species is intelligent enough to keep civilization moving forward.

Will we be duped by disinformation in to forgetting why we have the Constitution and Bill of Rights in the US?

Will we forget the hard lessons we learned during the bloody history of humankind and be condemned to repeat them?

Can we study facts and let them guide us rather than emotions inflamed by manipulative politicians and journalists?

I don't know. I hope so.

If Trump is reelected collapse may be delayed by another four years.

After that I have no idea.

I don't think we are facing a technological collapse.

I think we are facing potentially a big step backwards in civilization: basic human rights, and the rule of law.

We have already lost what everyone used to agree was basic human right: freedom of speech. People are afraid of losing their jobs for expressing mainstream views. You can't even say men and women are biologically different.

And in the US democracy is in jeopardy from bureaucratic coups and vote fraud.
Source Jim? This is all conspiratorial nonsense and fear-mongering. Its the same rhetoric you've been regurgitating for years under the "Trump Consciousness" thread (whatever the hell that's ever meant). The chicken-little schtick is growing tiresome.

And the irony in all this is that you are not standing on the "right" side by being all in with Trump. You're not blind so its clear you are choosing to ignore Trump and the GOP's role in the divisiveness that is so front and center right now. If he is such a great president why has this issue worsened during his administration? Ah, I forgot. The answer ALWAYS is "not his fault". Its the media, its Soros, its ANTIFA, etc. Comical.
 
#13
If Trump is reelected collapse may be delayed by another four years.

After that I have no idea.
I rather think if he is re-elected - particularly if it is a big win - a lot of moderate Democrats will come out and assert themselves.

Remember Silence, that many of us used to like the Democratic Party, and would do again if it were reformed. Obviously I have never been able to vote, but my partner and I cheered when Obama got in, and when he was re-elected. It was only after that - after Libya, Syria and the Ukraine destabilisation that we both became Trump supporters.

David
 
#14
I rather think if he is re-elected - particularly if it is a big win - a lot of moderate Democrats will come out and assert themselves.

Remember Silence, that many of us used to like the Democratic Party, and would do again if it were reformed. Obviously I have never been able to vote, but my partner and I cheered when Obama got in, and when he was re-elected. It was only after that - after Libya, Syria and the Ukraine destabilisation that we both became Trump supporters.

David
David,

If the democrats start to act like moderates because they lost an election, do you think their behavior would be sincere?

And those Democrat "moderates" have been pushing political correctness and identity politics for decades. The natural result of those divisive policies is the polarization of society and the riots we are having in democrat run cities today.

Moderate Democrat politicians have shown themselves to have been lying to Americans for decades. They have no objection to a plot to destroy democracy and rule of law in the United States. And even if there are some who don't like the plot, I doubt they will suddenly grow a spine in the future when the plotters deem the time is right for another putsch.

Even if any moderates come out and try to change the party, that will only ensure they loose the next primary elections where the parties choose their candidates. Very few people in the US vote in the primaries. It is only the extremist activists who vote in them. That is why the Democrat party has degenerated to where it is now. Those primary voters have no understanding of history or economics, they just want the government to solve all their problems. Doesn't that sound like communism? The Democrat politicians can't get into office except by pandering to those constituents.

Bernie Sanders is basically a communist. The only reason he didn't get the Democrat nomination to run for president is because the Democrat leadership connived to prevent it. The Democrat primary voters are further to the left than the leadership. That is the problem in the Democrat party - the candidates are chosen by extremists.
 
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#15
I rather think if he is re-elected - particularly if it is a big win - a lot of moderate Democrats will come out and assert themselves.

Remember Silence, that many of us used to like the Democratic Party, and would do again if it were reformed. Obviously I have never been able to vote, but my partner and I cheered when Obama got in, and when he was re-elected. It was only after that - after Libya, Syria and the Ukraine destabilisation that we both became Trump supporters.

David
I don't think that Jim, for sure, paints anything close to a fair picture of democrats nor republicans for that matter. He ignores the extreme right of the republicans while presenting the extreme left as representative of the democrats. Simply not the case. My sense is that we're looking at a normal distribution curve as is the case is so many things. The core of the democratic voters are not interested and would be opposed to a socialist platform. This is the primary reason that Bernie Sanders couldn't win the nomination this go around considering how horrifically weak the candidate pool was this time. AOC and her counterparts are young, idealistically motivated (which isn't always a bad thing), and misinformed. Sure, they have their followers but its a fraction of the democratic voting population and certainly not a majority fraction.

I'm a centrist myself primarily because I can not subscribe to a political ideology that believes it is "100% right". This is effectively how both sides are trying to position the other: diametrically opposed on virtually every policy position. This doesn't work (as we all can clearly see) and simply isn't reflective of real life, practical efforts at governance in a democracy. (IMO)

I am sensitive to your consistent mentioning of war/conflict as a strong consideration. To the degree that Trump has actually advanced our philosophy to be slower to armed response, I see that as a good thing. I'm also more fiscally conservative but conversely am very supportive of effective regulation as free market entities have proven over and over that left to their own devices they will NOT "do the right thing". Oversight to protect those who can't protect themselves is necessary and good.

So, as I've said elsewhere, if Biden wins and proves me wrong by starting down a more extreme left platform/policy slide I will look very closely at the Republican candidate in 2024. Again, for me, the POTUS's character is table stakes for me and Trump has failed on this front in epic fashion. He's stoked division, is utterly motivated by his own self interest (driven exclusively by his ego), has cheapened the honor and dignity that is so important from the POTUS's office, etc. We'll survive another 4 years if he wins just as we will if Biden wins.

My hope is that this experiment of putting a reality TV star, egomaniac in office teaches the population living in the core of the normal distribution curve to demand more from BOTH parties and the candidates they put forth. That makes me a bit of an idealist myself; which I realize, but it remain my hope.

We can, and should demand, both: a leader we can be inspired and proud of who governs well by being strong, smart, and collaborative.
 
#16
I think what we are seeing playing out is whether humanity as a species is intelligent enough to keep civilization moving forward.

Will we be duped by disinformation in to forgetting why we have the Constitution and Bill of Rights in the US?

Will we forget the hard lessons we learned during the bloody history of humankind and be condemned to repeat them?

Can we study facts and let them guide us rather than emotions inflamed by manipulative politicians and journalists?

I don't know. I hope so.

If Trump is reelected collapse may be delayed by another four years.

After that I have no idea.

I don't think we are facing a technological collapse.

I think we are facing potentially a big step backwards in civilization: basic human rights, and the rule of law.

We have already lost what everyone used to agree was basic human right: freedom of speech. People are afraid of losing their jobs for expressing mainstream views. You can't even say men and women are biologically different.

And in the US democracy is in jeopardy from bureaucratic coups and vote fraud.
I should add the EU is step backward (replacing democratically elected decision makers with bureaucrats), but Brexit was a step forward (democratizing and decentralizing power).
 
#17
Project Veritas provides evidence that the Democratic party has been infiltrated by violent extremists.

https://www.projectveritas.com/news...is-jacks-reveals-how-far-he-and-cohorts-have/

Kristopher Jacks, who chairs Weld County’s chapter of Our Revolution, is on video admitting to the significant takeover of Colorado’s Democratic Party by his group.

“It’s shocking that Colorado’s Democratic Party still has not commented on this story, especially since Jacks’ employer, CenturyLink, has already suspended him and reported him to law enforcement agencies,” said Project Veritas founder and CEO James O’Keefe.
 
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#18
I should add the EU is step backward (replacing democratically elected decision makers with bureaucrats), but Brexit was a step forward (democratizing and decentralizing power).
This is spot on, and I think that realisation was a major force that made this happen. When I spoke to people as I canvassed for Brexit, I found that although it wasn't usually the first thing that people said, the resentment that we were supposed to be democratic and yet got a whole range of policies pushed on us came bubbling through.

David
 
#19
I don't think that Jim, for sure, paints anything close to a fair picture of democrats nor republicans for that matter. He ignores the extreme right of the republicans while presenting the extreme left as representative of the democrats. Simply not the case. My sense is that we're looking at a normal distribution curve as is the case is so many things.
Well I have seen video of mobs burning districts across the US, mobs preventing free speech at universities, etc. Are you saying these things didn't happen or that there were equivalent acts performed by the 'right'?
The core of the democratic voters are not interested and would be opposed to a socialist platform.
Yes, I think you ar eright, and I hope this will be why the Democrats will lose this election and then re-group around some better values.
This is the primary reason that Bernie Sanders couldn't win the nomination this go around considering how horrifically weak the candidate pool was this time. AOC and her counterparts are young, idealistically motivated (which isn't always a bad thing), and misinformed.
I wonder why you think the field was so weak. My feeling is that a clique in the Democratic Party wanted a puppet at the top who would let the NeoCons get their way. Obama seemed to resist the Neocons until the second term - then something went wrong. Although to some extent he resisted the Neocons to the end by refusing to be drawn into war by the (almost certainly)fake gas attacks in Syria.
Sure, they have their followers but its a fraction of the democratic voting population and certainly not a majority fraction.

I'm a centrist myself primarily because I can not subscribe to a political ideology that believes it is "100% right".
Does that mean that you will vote for an independent candidate (are there any?), or not vote?
This is effectively how both sides are trying to position the other: diametrically opposed on virtually every policy position. This doesn't work (as we all can clearly see) and simply isn't reflective of real life, practical efforts at governance in a democracy. (IMO)

I am sensitive to your consistent mentioning of war/conflict as a strong consideration. To the degree that Trump has actually advanced our philosophy to be slower to armed response, I see that as a good thing. I'm also more fiscally conservative but conversely am very supportive of effective regulation as free market entities have proven over and over that left to their own devices they will NOT "do the right thing". Oversight to protect those who can't protect themselves is necessary and good.

So, as I've said elsewhere, if Biden wins and proves me wrong by starting down a more extreme left platform/policy slide I will look very closely at the Republican candidate in 2024. Again, for me, the POTUS's character is table stakes for me and Trump has failed on this front in epic fashion. He's stoked division, is utterly motivated by his own self interest (driven exclusively by his ego), has cheapened the honor and dignity that is so important from the POTUS's office, etc. We'll survive another 4 years if he wins just as we will if Biden wins.

My hope is that this experiment of putting a reality TV star, egomaniac in office teaches the population living in the core of the normal distribution curve to demand more from BOTH parties and the candidates they put forth. That makes me a bit of an idealist myself; which I realize, but it remain my hope.

We can, and should demand, both: a leader we can be inspired and proud of who governs well by being strong, smart, and collaborative.
Many people think that Biden was cognitively impaired even before he was chosen to represent the Democrats - if true, that is totally absurd. If Trump is such a flawed character, how come the Democratic Party could not find anyone more reasonable to oppose him?

While I am not a US citizen, I think the free World deserves a leader that will not go to war (for real or via proxies) for spurious reasons - for example many think the Syrian war was really waged because Assad refused to build an oil pipeline over its territory. God knows the real reason why the Libyan war was waged, but it has also been a disaster. Seen from the rest of the world, all these wars (I have listed them before) have been an utter disaster, and anyone who will (and has) stop them deserves more time in office. I'd much prefer an undignified man in office who does not start spurious wars, or seed instability in other parts of the world, than a man who speaks noble thoughts but sends hundreds of thousands more to die.

To say that America will survive another four years regardless of which side wins could be very naive. The nuclear threat is a real menace to the world - far more severe than anything that 'Climate Change' could ever deliver - and every bit of Neocon tinkering around in the world to create turmoil risks something uncontrollable happening.

David
 
#20
Free speech and a free press are also important to a free society, but censorship on media platforms continues to get worse.

For instance, FB is censoring the NY Post story about the Biden emails.

 
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