The SJW and equality movement

#1
It seems like this forum needs this thread, based upon my recent viewing of the show threads. If it already exists and I missed it, please delete. Post any thoughts you have below. I’ll lead with this on my end. Lately Thomas Sowell has had a big impact on me as I’ve deeply considered these issues lately. He frequently speaks out against this idea of systematic racism and inequality. He’s nearly 90 years old. He lived through Jim Crow, and he’s been a professor of economics at Stanford and Cornell (I think). Feel free to post what you want, it doesn’t have to be in response to this video. Any thoughts you may have

 
#2
I liked that video a lot, although I am not usually one to listen to economics lectures!

It is often striking how academics can ignore actual data - both in science, and as Sowell points out in economics too! The fact that affirmative action and welfare cheques seem to create crime, lower the education of blacks, and cause family break-ups is pretty staggering. I suppose Conservatives would at least have a suspicion that there might be feedback loops that would do that, it is wonderful to hear it spelled out so clearly.

I found his voice a little hard to understand at first - but then I realised that he was looking for a job a year before I was born!

I do hope Chris7 listenes to this and then debates the contents a little.

I do remember in the 1960's Professor Hans Eysenck did some studies of white IQ's vs Black IQ's. He claimed there was a small difference in favour of the whites, and that data would be useful for selecting people for jobs or college courses. I always thought that regardless of whether this gap was real, the essential point was that the IQ bell shape is very broad and anyone performing a selection would be far better to ignore the colour of the guys skin and look at his personal IQ and other relevant information. Eysenck created a huge storm, and yet his data was essentially useless in practice, and probably also of little theoretical value.

I don't favour absolutely no welfare spending however, because in that situation people may suffer and die, women may get forced into prostitution, etc.

David
 
#3
In his book The Once and Future Liberal: After Identity Politics, Mark Lilla, professor of humanities at Columbia University, a liberal, explains how progressive students have been intellectually damaged by identity politics:​
(Excerpt by Ed Driscoll)​
As a teacher, I am increasingly struck by a difference between my conservative and progressive students. Contrary to the stereotype, the conservatives are far more likely to connect their engagements to a set of political ideas and principles. Young people on the left are much more inclined to say that they are engaged in politics as an X, concerned about other Xs and those issues touching on X-ness. And they are less and less comfortable with debate.​
Over the past decade a new, and very revealing, locution has drifted from our universities into the media mainstream: Speaking as an X…This is not an anodyne phrase. It sets up a wall against any questions that come from a non-X perspective. Classroom conversations that once might have begun, I think A, and here is my argument, now take the form, Speaking as an X, I am offended that you claim B. What replaces argument, then, are taboos against unfamiliar ideas and contrary opinions.

...​
Adam MacLeod wrote in Undoing the Dis-Education of Millennials
I teach in a law school. For several years now my students have been mostly Millennials. Contrary to stereotype, I have found that the vast majority of them want to learn. But true to stereotype, I increasingly find that most of them cannot think, don’t know very much, and are enslaved to their appetites and feelings. Their minds are held hostage in a prison fashioned by elite culture and their undergraduate professors.​

...​
According to Camilla Turner writing in telegraph.co.uk:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ive-taught-schools-fuels-anxiety-young-women/
"Dr Joanna Williams, a lecturer in higher education at Kent University ...​
... said that if girls are instilled with a mindset of victimhood at a young age, it can set them back later in life. “When women go out into the world of work and experience obstacles, rather than persevering they think ‘oh these are the insurmountable barriers I was told about'."​
...​
Dr Williams said that the narrative continues at university where students are told that there is a "rape culture" or some kind of "epidemic" of sexual assault on campus.​
...​
“It is very difficult for women to present themselves as powerful, strong and capable if they think they need to be wary and anxious," she said.​

...​
4:25​
Camille Paglia: “It’s really started at the level of public school education. I’ve been teaching now for 46 years as a classroom teacher, and I have felt the slow devolution of the quality of public school education in the classroom.”​
...​
“What has happened is these young people now getting to college have no sense of history – of any kind! No sense of history. No world geography. No sense of the violence and the barbarities of history. So, they think that the whole world has always been like this, a kind of nice, comfortable world where you can go to the store and get orange juice and milk, and you can turn on the water and the hot water comes out. They have no sense whatever of the destruction, of the great civilizations that rose and fell, and so on – and how arrogant people get when they’re in a comfortable civilization. They now have been taught to look around them to see defects in America – which is the freest country in the history of the world – and to feel that somehow America is the source of all evil in the universe, and it’s because they’ve never been exposed to the actual evil of the history of humanity. They know nothing!”​
~2:04​
Camille Paglia: My generation of the 1960's, when I arrived in college in 1964 there were parietal rules in place so that the women in my dorm had to sign in at 11:00 at night. The men could run free. It was my generation that rose up and said that we wanted to be treated equally and we want freedom. And the colleges said the world is a dangerous place. You could be attacked you could be raped. We said, "Give us the freedom to risk rape. Freedom is much more important than protection and safety. And that's what young people have given up today.​
~5:59​
Christina Hoff Sommers: And right now the fashion is the identity politics, intersectionality, this is all the rage, and its the premise of this theory it's the idea that all the oppressions intersect with one another and form this matrix of oppression. And so young people in a typical gender studies class now learn that they inhabit a society that is this matrix of oppression and depending on your identity you might be advantaged so you have unearned privilege or you might be burdened because of your race or maybe your disability or your gender or preference and on and on. But underneath it all is this assumption that the United States is a white supremacist imperialist capitalist patriarchal oppressive society. And in order to liberate ourselves we have to, I don't even know what they want to do - because it's all - maybe blame one another and form - have little feuds, on social media and on campus.​
 
#4
Alex, I would be interested in you thoughts on the social justice movement. At it's core it is a racist, misogynist and just plain evil cult masquerading as the opposite of those things.
Is it really just a cult? Maybe I am wrong but I assume in the US every Democrat voter is a subscriber to this philosophy. It controls movies, TV, the mainstream news media, public schools and universities, If you speak out against it you risk losing your job. Can a mainstream belief be a cult?

It's important to understand how wide-spread this belief is because that would have implications for how to counteract its influence.

Maybe members here who know from personal experience can say if people are voting for Democrats because they believe in SJW or because they think it is the lesser evil?
 
#5
I think the destabilization phase has been delayed until now (see below) because people who control the world from behind the scenes were prospering under the old status quo, but now Trump is an existential threat to their power so they had to light the fuse - it is their last chance to prevent his reelection.

One of the many things about this that I find worrisome is that while the older generation of Democrat politicians, Clinton, Biden, Schumer, Pelosi, understand SJW is propaganda, the next generation are true believers.

If by some miracle our society wakes up to this foolishness, it will take 15 or 20 years to recover.

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/brainwashing/2007/bezmenov.htm

Yuri Bezmenov on demoralization"​
Interview with Yuri Bezmenov (ex-KGB)​
by Edward Griffin - 1984​
YURI BEZMENOV: Ideological subversion is the process which is legitimate and open. You can see it with your own eyes.... It has nothing to do with espionage.​
I know that intelligence gathering looks more romantic.... That's probably why your Hollywood producers are so crazy about James Bond types of films. But in reality the main emphasis of the KGB is NOT in the area of intelligence at all. According to my opinion, and the opinions of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower is spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion, active measures, or psychological warfare. What it basically means is: to change the perception of reality of every American that despite of the abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interest of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country.​
It's a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided into four basic stages. The first one being "demoralization". It takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years required to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy exposed to the ideology of [their] enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generation of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism; American patriotism....​
The result? The result you can see ... the people who graduated in the 60's, dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, and educational systems. You are stuck with them. You can't get through to them. They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern [alluding to Pavlov]. You cannot change their mind even if you expose them to authentic information. Even if you prove that white is white and black is black, you still can not change the basic perception and the logic of behavior.
In other words [for] these people the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible. To rid society of these people you need another 15 or 20 years to educate a new generation of patriotically minded and common sense people who would be acting in favor and in the interests of United States society.
ED: And yet these people who have been programmed and as you say [are] in place and who are favorable to an opening with the Soviet concept - these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country?​
YURI: Most of them, yes. Simply because the psychological shock when they will see in [the] future what the beautiful society of EQUALITY and social justice means in practice, obviously they will revolt. They will be very unhappy [and] frustrated people, and Marxist-Leninist regime does not tolerate these people. Obviously they will join the [ranks] of dissenters; dissidents. Unlike the present United States there will be no place for dissent in future Marxist-Leninist America. [Now] you can get popular like Daniel Elsburg and filthy rich like Jane Fonda for being a dissident [and] for criticizing your Pentagon. In [the] future these people will simply be [he makes a squishy noise] squashed like cockroaches for criticizing the government. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful [and] noble ideas of EQUALITY. This they don't understand and it will be the greatest shock for them, of course.​
The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already for the last 25 years. Actually, it's over fulfilled because demoralization now reaches such areas where not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such tremendous success. Most of it is done by Americans to Americans thanks to lack of moral standards. As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. ...he will refuse to believe it.... That's the tragedy of the situation of demoralization.​
The next stage is destabilization.... It only takes 2 to 5 years to destabilize a nation. This time what matters is essentials; economy, foreign relations, [and] defense systems. And you can see it quite clearly that in some... sensitive areas such as defense and [the] economy, the influence of Marxist-Leninist ideas in the United States is absolutely fantastic. I could never believe it 14 years ago when I landed in this part of the world that the process will go that fast.​
Most of the American politicians, media, and educational system train another generation of people who think they are living at the peacetime. False. United States is in a state of war; undeclared, total war against the basic principles and foundations of this system. And the initiator of this war is not Comrade Andropov of course - it's the system. However, ridiculous it may sound, [it is] the world Communist system, or the world Communist conspiracy. Whether I scare some people or not, I don't give a hoot. If you're not scared by now, nothing can scare you.​
ED: Okay, so what do we do? What is your recommendation to the American people?​
YURI: Well, the immediate thing that comes to mind is, of course, there must be a very strong national effort to educate people in the spirit of REAL patriotism, number one. Number two, to explain [to] them the real danger of socialist, communist, welfare state, Big Brother government.... The moment at least part of [the] United States population is convinced that the danger is real, they have to FORCE their government... to stop aiding Communism.​
 
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#6
Jim,

I think that unless the Democrats subvert the democratic process quite extensively, they will lose big in November. There are already suggestions that people don't dare say they are going to vote Trump to a pollster, but in the privacy of the polling booth that is what they will do. Very few people are indoctrinated enough to really think they don't need a police force.

However, lets try to keep this on-topic a bit.

David
 
#7
I liked that video a lot, although I am not usually one to listen to economics lectures!

It is often striking how academics can ignore actual data - both in science, and as Sowell points out in economics too! The fact that affirmative action and welfare cheques seem to create crime, lower the education of blacks, and cause family break-ups is pretty staggering. I suppose Conservatives would at least have a suspicion that there might be feedback loops that would do that, it is wonderful to hear it spelled out so clearly.

I found his voice a little hard to understand at first - but then I realised that he was looking for a job a year before I was born!

I do hope Chris7 listenes to this and then debates the contents a little.

I do remember in the 1960's Professor Hans Eysenck did some studies of white IQ's vs Black IQ's. He claimed there was a small difference in favour of the whites, and that data would be useful for selecting people for jobs or college courses. I always thought that regardless of whether this gap was real, the essential point was that the IQ bell shape is very broad and anyone performing a selection would be far better to ignore the colour of the guys skin and look at his personal IQ and other relevant information. Eysenck created a huge storm, and yet his data was essentially useless in practice, and probably also of little theoretical value.

I don't favour absolutely no welfare spending however, because in that situation people may suffer and die, women may get forced into prostitution, etc.

David
Id like to see a scholarly debate with him and another man of the opposite position. Seems he’d be pretty formidable in a debate. Although maybe he’s slower now with age. He makes a lot of really interesting points. And, to many, a lot of the points would be deemed racist. Even at the academic college level. There’s a slide from a real college lecture where it is states that if you draw any other conclusion from studying the circumstances of blacks other than that their disadvantage is the result of a broken system that you are, by definition, engaged in racism. So you’re shut down before you can even consider these things. And that stalls growth and learning.

Sowell has several other videos. He’s great. Doesn’t talk fancy, just hits you hard with the best facts.
 
#9
In 2006 Sowell wrote a column stating that there was no housing bubble in the US with prices being affordable in all but a few areas. These localized inflated prices, according to Sowell, where due to environmental or land use laws. The solution was deregulation. So, there's three things here: 1) He completely missed the biggest economic crisis since who knows when. 2) He was apparently unaware of the role (or existence) of complex financial instruments in the crisis. 3) He claimed the solution to a crisis (that didn't exist) caused by deregulation was further deregulation.

A few years later he wrote a book putting the blame at the feet of liberal do gooders and their laws to help the poor. Again, completely ignoring the financialization of the economy and the mechanism that turned an isolated issue into a global catastrophe.

Point being that Sowell is a Milton Freedman devotee, carries an ideology, and is thus as likely to cherry pick and isolate data as anyone else. That's not to say the man is always wrong, of course not, but he should be read/listened to with critical awareness.

And, honestly, the whole idea that people, anywhere and at anytime, are only ever poor because of their failure or unwillingness to produce and never because of exploitation or unfair practices is a very hard swallow for me. Also, with the many welfare cuts and reforms that have taken place over the years (this has happened in most places), one would expect poor people to have closed the income gap by now.
 
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#10
The fact that affirmative action and welfare cheques seem to ... lower the education of blacks ... is pretty staggering.

It is staggering how the education of black people in the US has been lowered while going up!

"More than 90 percent of younger African Americans (ages 25 to 29) have graduated from high school, compared with just over half in 1968 ... They are also more than twice as likely to have a college degree as in 1968"

https://www.epi.org/publication/50-years-after-the-kerner-commission/
 
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#11
It is staggering how the education of black people in the US has been lowered while going up!

"More than 90 percent of younger African Americans (ages 25 to 29) have graduated from high school, compared with just over half in 1968 ... They are also more than twice as likely to have a college degree as in 1968"

https://www.epi.org/publication/50-years-after-the-kerner-commission/
So to be clear, you are arguing with Thomas Sowell, or did I misinterpret what he said? Or are both statements true but refer to different time periods?

David
 
#12
One factor might be the lowering of the standards for a high school diploma in certain areas, where you can be given a diploma but be illiterate and innumerate. More kids are getting a diploma but they are not well educated.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/11/29/black-kids-get-trapped-failing-schools/
Why Black Kids Get Trapped in Failing Schools​

Baltimore is by no means unique. It’s a small part of the ongoing education disaster for black students across the nation. Baltimore schools are not underfunded. Of the nation’s 100 largest school systems, Baltimore schools rank third in spending per pupil.​
Baltimore’s black students receive diplomas that attest that they can function at a 12th-grade level when in fact they may not be able to do so at a seventh- or eighth-grade level.​


https://www.laprogressive.com/inner-city-schools/
This leads to students being socially promoted without the necessary foundational skills—reading comprehension and fundamental math, to almost assured academic and subsequent career failure. Of course, this will most likely make these once inherently clever young people a lifetime unnecessary and easily avoidable expensive burden on our society.​
 
#13
One factor might be the lowering of the standards for a high school diploma in certain areas, where you can be given a diploma but be illiterate and innumerate. More kids are getting a diploma but they are not well educated.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/11/29/black-kids-get-trapped-failing-schools/
Why Black Kids Get Trapped in Failing Schools​

Baltimore is by no means unique. It’s a small part of the ongoing education disaster for black students across the nation. Baltimore schools are not underfunded. Of the nation’s 100 largest school systems, Baltimore schools rank third in spending per pupil.​
Baltimore’s black students receive diplomas that attest that they can function at a 12th-grade level when in fact they may not be able to do so at a seventh- or eighth-grade level.​


https://www.laprogressive.com/inner-city-schools/
This leads to students being socially promoted without the necessary foundational skills—reading comprehension and fundamental math, to almost assured academic and subsequent career failure. Of course, this will most likely make these once inherently clever young people a lifetime unnecessary and easily avoidable expensive burden on our society.​
I can’t remember who I heard make this point, maybe it was Walter Williams (I think). He was saying that A lot of the high schools in black neighborhoods Essentially pass out high school Diplomas after really bad educations, and he calls them “fake diplomas.”
 
#14
In 2006 Sowell wrote a column stating that there was no housing bubble in the US with prices being affordable in all but a few areas. These localized inflated prices, according to Sowell, where due to environmental or land use laws. The solution was deregulation. So, there's three things here: 1) He completely missed the biggest economic crisis since who knows when. 2) He was apparently unaware of the role (or existence) of complex financial instruments in the crisis. 3) He claimed the solution to a crisis (that didn't exist) caused by deregulation was further deregulation.

A few years later he wrote a book putting the blame at the feet of liberal do gooders and their laws to help the poor. Again, completely ignoring the financialization of the economy and the mechanism that turned an isolated issue into a global catastrophe.

Point being that Sowell is a Milton Freedman devotee, carries an ideology, and is thus as likely to cherry pick and isolate data as anyone else. That's not to say the man is always wrong, of course not, but he should be read/listened to with critical awareness.

And, honestly, the whole idea that people, anywhere and at anytime, are only ever poor because of their failure or unwillingness to produce and never because of exploitation or unfair practices is a very hard swallow for me. Also, with the many welfare cuts and reforms that have taken place over the years (this has happened in most places), one would expect poor people to have closed the income gap by now.
Yes everybody has biases and we need to be aware of that. And I don’t think that he’s stating that people are never exploited but he is taking about a very specific situation here in the USA. To me, the best data that Sowell had (in that video, provided that it’s accurate) are the ones Where black families with married educated couples who’s houses had (was it library cards etc?) (hope I got that right) in it seemed to fair as well as White families with the same on average as a national whole. And when families are essentially rewarded for being single, I don’t think it should be surprising when illegitimacy rates go on the rise. Doesn’t mean that it’s the only problem. But it’s a problem. But I’m with David. I don’t want to totally abolish the welfare system, but I think sweeping changes of some sort need to be made). But that’s my impression given my limited understanding

I think that black communities are still feeling the impact of the highly racist redline polices of the 50s-60s etc. All those Missed opportunities for investments etc still probably have a very detrimental role in the economies of many black communities today. I don’t know what a potential solution would look like. Maybe some investments and spending can be put into those neighborhoods?

But there is a huge illegitimacy problem and serious violent crime and high school dropout problem in these neighborhoods which are clearly a huge part of the problem imo. I think the mainstream media would have people believe that this is the white mans fault. But at some point we need accountability. To me there’s good data suggesting that blacks can do very well if they apply themselves. I really don’t feel that white People are holding them down as the mainstream narrative says.But perhaps they have some unique challenges none the less. Certainly it was easier for me being born in a strong middle class household than it is for somebody in the ghetto. But I don’t think that this is relative to the color of my skin but rather is the result of being born into a house with some money and a healthy social structure with two parents.

There’s another study (Which Dr Walter Williams bright up, I think, sorry about the memory problems) which showed that Black women and white women who were born into upper middle class homes, faired equally well in terms of income and job placement later in life, but that when one compared Black and white men of the same status, the gap between white and black men was bigger. I’m not sure what to make of that personally but I think Williams contention was that there is a cultural problem amongst black males. That would sound racist (as does anything that goes against the narrative) except that Williams himself is black.

At any rate, I often try to look for some grey area between the two competing sides. I think in honest analysis we can conclude that some of the racist policies of the 50s through early 70s might still be exerting a negative impact on some of these neighborhoods. But they’re (as a whole) certainly doing a lot to sabatoge themselves. I think the data is clear in this. Aside from that, what role does the current white person play in preventing these neighborhoods from becoming better? I’d suggest that it’s far less than the politically correct answer suggests. There are no currently racist policies and laws or statuettes, and business people generally care about money and money only. Not race. Of course that’s a generalization though.

I don’t know what evidence there is of what white people are doing to intentionally keeping blacks down due to the color of their skin. All the data that people use To supper this idea seem wildly out of context to me. Like the incarceration rate. Blacks are incarcerated at a much higher level than whites. People will present that as evidence and totally ignore the fact that blacks account for something like 50 percent of the total violent crime while accounting for something like 13 percent of the population. But I am aware of a study which suggested that black men received more time on average for the same crime. Although I haven’t analyzed the data or heard any rebuttal. But that would suggest discrimination on some level of the data is good.

What are some current practices that see white people holding blacks down? There are still racist folk and maybe that’s still exerting some negative pressure, I don’t know, It’s a complicated I suppose. But I think it’s should be an empowering thought when you realize that you can make something of yourself with hard work and perhaps a little luck and that you’re not being held down by some hard to define and locate oppresser.
 
#15
I can’t remember who I heard make this point, maybe it was Walter Williams (I think). He was saying that A lot of the high schools in black neighborhoods Essentially pass out high school Diplomas after really bad educations, and he calls them “fake diplomas.”
If the teachers were white they would say it is racist, but because the teachers are black no one cares. It's like black on black murders, many more than are killed by police but because the deaths are caused by blacks no one cares. That is the systemic racism in America.
 
#16
So to be clear, you are arguing with Thomas Sowell
Yes, I'm attempting to argue with him as I find the correlations he makes to be strange and maybe even arbitrary. For example, the fact that the poverty rate among black Americans fell drastically between 1940 and 1960, then continued to fall but more slowly, is no mystery - it follows general economic trends and world events, IE. The war boom in production and demand, the mopping up of excess post-war production through the rebuilding of Europe and Asia, the transfers of money from the US to Europe/Asia and the resultant back-flow demand for American goods, then the inevitable slowdown in the boom leading to stagnation and the reordering of the global financial architecture in the 70s. Why imply a correlation between 60s welfare and the slowdown? (Ignoring the fact that a welfare system was instituted in the US in 1935.)

I wonder if drugs (and drug offence imprisonment) might have something to do with the creation of dysfunctional communities?







 
#17
I guess my main beef with the SJW types is their rabid intolerance for differing view points. They also display a crippling inability to talk about class and thus inject a little nuance into the conversation. For example, SJWs love bandying about terms like white privilege. How exactly does this help the white Appalachian communities that have some of the lowest life expectancies in the world? Are they privileged? Do they not matter?
 
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#19
I guess my main beef with the SJW types is their rabid intolerance for differing view points. They also display a crippling inability to talk about class and thus inject a little nuance into the conversation. For example, SJWs love bandying about terms like white privilege. How exactly does this help the white Appalachian communities that have some of the lowest life expectancies in the world? Are they privileged? Do they not matter?
At a campus in Berkeley there was an outrage that Ben Shapiro was coming to speak. There was a student who was part of a mob trying to prevent Shapiro from speaking there. There was a journalist (a well known one, I only recognize his face) who was asking him why he shouldn’t be able to speak and cited the constitution and freedom of speech. The kid said, “we don’t care about that, I don’t think it’s a relevant document right now.” To be fair, he’s not their spokesperson, but I really feel that a lot of them feel this way. They don’t want dialogue at all.
 
#20
Yes, I'm attempting to argue with him as I find the correlations he makes to be strange and maybe even arbitrary.
This is definitely odd, do you know you can trust the source of those graphs, and I wonder if there is any way to take this up with Thomas Sowell directly?

My view is that criminalising drugs is utterly counter productive and should be stopped - that would get rid of that huge bulge in blacks in jail, and starve the gangs of cash. It might also enable interested parties to explore entheogens......

David
 
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