Tricia Robertson, 30 Years of After-death Communication Research |462|

[Philemon]

One comment I'd make - not in opposition to what you have written - is that money and happiness really do not equate. The movies you watch may not represent that well. For example, would you actually want the degree of luxury you describe? Would you want a household that needed to be run almost like a business, or a car that was so smart you daren't park it in most locations?

The extremely poor in third world countries are something else - it is much harder to believe they are happy. The strange thing is that even back when I was a kid, people were sending money to try to solve this problem - and nothing has actually changed.

I agree that evil isn't just about child molestation - important though that is.

David

I agree that money and happiness do not equate and it's self-evidently true that "man does not live on bread alone" but with too little of it he does not live at all and can only be said to be surviving. At the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs labor the greatest portion of humanity, struggling daily to acquire physiological and safety needs - and some doing this for all their lives. Being crushingly poor disbars one from opportunities to learn about or to discuss or think about the things that we talk about on here which, to me, is very integral to my own sense of well-being. The fact that life on this Earth keeps significant numbers of people stuck at surviving often strikes me as antithetical to the idea of a loving God or spiritual reality willing or capable to act on our behalf. It's not so much that a person has less things or lesser quality of things or less opportunity for certain types of experiences, but that he is subjected to a certain type of experience that is corrosive to him and elicits certain responses from him that work against his own well-being. In some ways the situation is like the Saw movies where a person must cut their own arm off in order to save their life. We end up doing violence to ourselves just to get by in this world, oftentimes unknowingly, and with ramifications we are generally too coarsened by our conditions to fully be aware of. This is taken as natural or normal or just the way it is - but there is nothing about the forces of nature which mandate that this arrangement be as it is. It is not natural; that is, it is not a result of unaided natural causes. It is brought about by societal forces created and maintained by people; oftentimes, in part, by the people these forces most work against. Consider the working poor parent who lived in the West prior to worker's rights and unions who did not have holidays, vacations, or even weekends to spend looking after their own affairs. Their sex drive resulted in the birth of children who they did not regularly see or interact with and who, on account of their poverty, ended up in a coal mine prior to the onset of puberty. Then, the cycle played out again. Does nature, unaided, create such conditions? Clearly not.

I've oftentimes encountered Christians and other spiritual types who respond to such considerations with St. Paul's exhortation:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

And I find that this sensibility is some sort of thought-stopping mechanism. It is as if this type of person means to say "Our real problems are not earthly - they're spiritual not material" (generally this means imaginary, such as visualized images of deities, demons and angels duking it out in some cloudy heaven and thought to act along lines that the speaker has been educated to think such entities act like in relation to him). And, having decided that one's real problem has nothing to do in relation to one's material affairs, and that the material and the spiritual have no connection whatsoever, a person with such sentiments is left a sheep for the slaughter urging others to passify themselves to likewise enable their own slaughter, and so on.

It's like the following Fourth Way parable by Gurdjieff:

“There is an Eastern tale which speaks about a very rich magician who had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where his sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines, and so on, and above all they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and skins and this they did not like.

“At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to others that they were eagles, to others that they were men, and to others that they were magicians.

“And after all this his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins.

“This tale is a very good illustration of man’s position."

In Search of the Miraculous, P.D. Ouspensky, pub. Paul H Compton Limited, 2004, Page 219.

If the spiritual realm is a hierarchy and the earthly realm lies somewhere downstream of it, then I would be inclined to think we are quite a ways downstream in light of the above and in light of any other form of evil that goes on here. Perhaps what we're missing is just how pervasive a role evil plays in our daily experience and how it is not at all exceptional or extraordinary. What is exceptional or extraordinary is that anything good at all happens here. In fact, I'd argue that we are all so benighted and coarsened by the evil we're constantly exposed to that our concept of what is good is probably nearly wholly false.

Getting back to Hecate's Scottish Calvinist roots, I'd say our compass is nearly incapable of pointing True North (that is to say, depraved).

 

[Philemon]

I, too, cleave to the Protestant work ethic and Calvinist attitudes about money.

I'm doing what I can to unshackle myself of those attitudes. They're baggage that nobody needs to be carrying in addition to everything else, especially these days.

 

[garry]

thank you all for your consoling messages. Although I have two daughters I had only one son. He was an educated young man who knew all about good health. Both his mother and myself had been urging him to quit the weights as he had had a couple of prior injuries. But weightlifting is addictive I guess and consists of like minded members. A culture. His mother offered the best suggestion, "It was simply his time." Considering the world at the present maybe he is among the lucky ones. In a recent exceptional near death experience submitted to the NDERF website by a lady named Sheila S she reports that Jesus is collecting, "His Lambs" now and that He is not gonna fix this world. I hope you might read her story. https://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html

 

[lonevoice]

Here is the full url: https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1sheila_s_nde.html

 

[Andrew Paquette]

I'm busily trying to get some work done and am listening to your interview with Tricia Robertson as I do. I'm nearly at the end but wanted to post a quick message on what is (so far) the most interesting idea put forward by Robertson.
You mention a "hierarchy of consciousness". She then mentions the ghost of a young man who says "there is no Hell" and then proceeds to describe levels of light. He can go down into darkness freely but it is unpleasant. He can also go up into brighter areas, but only briefly because it is in a sense painful. That forces him back to the light level that is most comfortable to him.
From my perspective, that is the most sensible explanation I've yet heard. The reason is that it does not imply some kind of scale where certain types of actions equate to certain punishments or rewards in the afterlife. Rather, an exact level of what might be called "spiritual strength" determines your lifting capacity.
I don't like explanations that have arbitrary jumps between levels, when a smooth gradient that takes into account all possible levels makes more sense. Therefore, the "Heaven/Hell" dichotomy or "Heaven/Purgatory/Hell" options always bugged me because they create the opportunity for arbitrary decisions regarding what one's level is.
In the traditional model, how do you deal with a hardened criminal who has committed numerous vile crimes, and then turns his life around and has done a few noble self-sacrificing things? If we look at it as a level of strength, he would have whatever strength he develops as a consequence of his actions. If it is a dichotomy, then the potential for unfairness enters the picture. Unfairness is contrary to the same beliefs that accommodate the Heaven/Hell idea, making it a non-starter in my opinion.
Having said all that, I did have a dream where I was shown Hell three times for the purpose of impressing upon me that it is real. Again, I report, you decide.

 

[David Bailey]

I'm busily trying to get some work done and am listening to your interview with Tricia Robertson as I do. I'm nearly at the end but wanted to post a quick message on what is (so far) the most interesting idea put forward by Robertson.
You mention a "hierarchy of consciousness". She then mentions the ghost of a young man who says "there is no Hell" and then proceeds to describe levels of light. He can go down into darkness freely but it is unpleasant. He can also go up into brighter areas, but only briefly because it is in a sense painful. That forces him back to the light level that is most comfortable to him.
From my perspective, that is the most sensible explanation I've yet heard. The reason is that it does not imply some kind of scale where certain types of actions equate to certain punishments or rewards in the afterlife. Rather, an exact level of what might be called "spiritual strength" determines your lifting capacity.
I don't like explanations that have arbitrary jumps between levels, when a smooth gradient that takes into account all possible levels makes more sense. Therefore, the "Heaven/Hell" dichotomy or "Heaven/Purgatory/Hell" options always bugged me because they create the opportunity for arbitrary decisions regarding what one's level is.

Not only that, but the traditional concept of Hell is something eternal - and what is the point in that?

In the traditional model, how do you deal with a hardened criminal who has committed numerous vile crimes, and then turns his life around and has done a few noble self-sacrificing things? If we look at it as a level of strength, he would have whatever strength he develops as a consequence of his actions. If it is a dichotomy, then the potential for unfairness enters the picture. Unfairness is contrary to the same beliefs that accommodate the Heaven/Hell idea, making it a non-starter in my opinion.

I agree.

Having said all that, I did have a dream where I was shown Hell three times for the purpose of impressing upon me that it is real. Again, I report, you decide.

Might that simply be the lowest level - still with the possibility to improve? Anyway, what did you make of this?

David

 

[Andrew Paquette]

Not only that, but the traditional concept of Hell is something eternal - and what is the point in that?

I agree.

Might that simply be the lowest level - still with the possibility to improve? Anyway, what did you make of this?

David

I make an effort to understand these things sometimes, not on other occasions. In this case, I am comfortable saying that, 1) I had a dream where someone (a spirit) showed me something. 2) That "Something" was identified by the spirit as "Hell". 3) The spirit evinced knowledge of my sleeping state and my uncertainty regarding the truth or falsity of the existence of "Hell". 4) The spirit endeavored to overcome my uncertainty regarding the existence of Hell and to persuade me that it did exist by showing it to me three times. 5) In the dream, I was completely convinced Hell was real.
6) Upon waking, I wrote what I remembered but did not retain the confidence I had in the dream regarding the existence of Hell. 7) I remember thinking in the dream that Hell was far worse than anything I had ever imagined and would have been worth the most extreme effort to avoid.

My current opinion on this subject is that it is possible Hell does exist but that if it does, it is unlikely to resemble any popular notions of what it looks like. If it exists at all, it is a place for spirits. The kind of torments imagined within a variety of religions would make no sense because physical torments would have no effect on an ephemeral spirit. Again, if it is objectively real, even in the spiritual sense, it makes more sense that Hell is a place of anguish due to one's knowledge of one's own actions in life. That is, any torment experienced is due to the full knowledge of one's own evil. Externally imposed punishments might be construed as a balm more than as punishments, because malefactors would recognize them as just consequences of their own action. Thus, the punishment would tend to relieve their anguish rather than aggravate it, because they could interpret it as paying down an intolerable debt.

Based on the little I remember of that dream, which in this case is more my reaction to what I saw rather than details of what I saw, Hell is either much worse than what I've just described as a possibility, or what I just described is sufficiently terrible to provoke the reaction I had.

 

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Again, if it is objectively real, even in the spiritual sense, it makes more sense that Hell is a place of anguish due to one's knowledge of one's own actions in life. That is, any torment experienced is due to the full knowledge of one's own evil. Externally imposed punishments might be construed as a balm more than as punishments, because malefactors would recognize them as just consequences of their own action. Thus, the punishment would tend to relieve their anguish rather than aggravate it, because they could interpret it as paying down an intolerable debt.

Well said.
That tends to be my view on the matter also.

 

[dpdownsouth]

Again, if it is objectively real, even in the spiritual sense, it makes more sense that Hell is a place of anguish due to one's knowledge of one's own actions in life. That is, any torment experienced is due to the full knowledge of one's own evil. Externally imposed punishments might be construed as a balm more than as punishments

From one of my favorite Saints, St. Isaac of Syria, 7th Century:

And I say that those who are tormented in hell are struck by the scourge of love! And how bitter and cruel is this torment of love! For those who feel that they have sinned against love, experience a torment far worse than any torment that can cause fear; the grief that strikes the heart over sins against love is more fearsome than any possible punishment. Let no one think that sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love… But the power of love works in two ways: it torments sinners, as even among us one friend may bring suffering to another, and it brings joy to those who fulfilled their duty. And so, my thinking is that the torment of hell is remorse. ...

He was also, somewhat controversially, a believer in universal salvation.

 

[dpdownsouth]

As I posted the above, I suddenly hear my neighbor loudly singing the Beatles' All You Need is love. This is very unusual, his taste usually gravitates toward Nirvana and rap (lucky me). A nice little coincidence.

 

[David Bailey]

I make an effort to understand these things sometimes, not on other occasions. In this case, I am comfortable saying that, 1) I had a dream where someone (a spirit) showed me something. 2) That "Something" was identified by the spirit as "Hell". 3) The spirit evinced knowledge of my sleeping state and my uncertainty regarding the truth or falsity of the existence of "Hell". 4) The spirit endeavored to overcome my uncertainty regarding the existence of Hell and to persuade me that it did exist by showing it to me three times. 5) In the dream, I was completely convinced Hell was real.
6) Upon waking, I wrote what I remembered but did not retain the confidence I had in the dream regarding the existence of Hell. 7) I remember thinking in the dream that Hell was far worse than anything I had ever imagined and would have been worth the most extreme effort to avoid.

My current opinion on this subject is that it is possible Hell does exist but that if it does, it is unlikely to resemble any popular notions of what it looks like. If it exists at all, it is a place for spirits. The kind of torments imagined within a variety of religions would make no sense because physical torments would have no effect on an ephemeral spirit. Again, if it is objectively real, even in the spiritual sense, it makes more sense that Hell is a place of anguish due to one's knowledge of one's own actions in life. That is, any torment experienced is due to the full knowledge of one's own evil. Externally imposed punishments might be construed as a balm more than as punishments, because malefactors would recognize them as just consequences of their own action. Thus, the punishment would tend to relieve their anguish rather than aggravate it, because they could interpret it as paying down an intolerable debt.

Based on the little I remember of that dream, which in this case is more my reaction to what I saw rather than details of what I saw, Hell is either much worse than what I've just described as a possibility, or what I just described is sufficiently terrible to provoke the reaction I had.

I mean this came out of a discussion about the idea that spiritual reality has many graduations of coarseness. So if you accept your vision as real, would you take it that there are all those graduations, but underneath that there is Hell for the utterly incorrigibly evil individuals?

Perhaps if souls cannot be destroyed, they go there to keep them out harm's way?

David

 

[Alex]

As I posted the above, I suddenly hear my neighbor loudly singing the Beatles' All You Need is love. This is very unusual, his taste usually gravitates toward Nirvana and rap (lucky me). A nice little coincidence.

nice one!

I always like the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi part of the Beatles story and what it means re "inquiry to perpetuate doubt" I mean, here's a guy with genuine spiritual insights / powers who finds his way onto the spiritual love path and then stumbles off it.
http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threa...-satanic-panic-head-fake-463.4570/post-146401

 

[David Bailey]

The spirit evinced knowledge of my sleeping state and my uncertainty regarding the truth or falsity of the existence of "Hell". 4) The spirit endeavored to overcome my uncertainty regarding the existence of Hell and to persuade me that it did exist by showing it to me three times. 5) In the dream, I was completely convinced Hell was real.
6) Upon waking, I wrote what I remembered but did not retain the confidence I had in the dream regarding the existence of Hell. 7) I remember thinking in the dream that Hell was far worse than anything I had ever imagined and would have been worth the most extreme effort to avoid.

Well my understanding is that spirit communication is non-verbal (please correct me if that is not accurate). If the spirit spoke to you in non-verbal terms, I guess he didn't say 'Hell' to you, but showed you something that you feel corresponds to what you think of as Hell.

The trouble with a word like 'Hell' is that different people understand it differently. So does it:

a) Contain experiences that are equivalent to the qualia we call physical pain - even without a body?

b) Contain extreme remorse (mental pain) for sins committed to other people, and/or for sins that did not harm anyone else.

c) Have the quality of lasting for ever. As you have probably gathered, I see this as pointless, and infinitely cruel.

d) Do spirits who are not condemned to Hell, go there to try to help people recover?

David

 

[Andrew Paquette]

Well my understanding is that spirit communication is non-verbal (please correct me if that is not accurate). If the spirit spoke to you in non-verbal terms, I guess he didn't say 'Hell' to you, but showed you something that you feel corresponds to what you think of as Hell.

The trouble with a word like 'Hell' is that different people understand it differently. So does it:

a) Contain experiences that are equivalent to the qualia we call physical pain - even without a body?

b) Contain extreme remorse (mental pain) for sins committed to other people, and/or for sins that did not harm anyone else.

c) Have the quality of lasting for ever. As you have probably gathered, I see this as pointless, and infinitely cruel.

d) Do spirits who are not condemned to Hell, go there to try to help people recover?


David

1) Non-verbal communication is the norm in my experience. In this case, what I was shown was meant to overcome my resistance to the idea of an objectively real "Hell". Regardless how the words are interpreted by you, me, or anyone else, there really is no room for interpretation here. "Hell" was literally "Hell".

a) I don't see how physical pain could be simulated in a situation like this. I had another dream where spirits were so starved for the experience of physical sensation that they tried to stimulate it in really exaggerated ways, like physical torture, but none of it had any effect. They felt nothing. They then tried to do the same to the spirits of people who were sleeping, meaning, they still had a connection to a living body. They reasoned that a spirit in that condition might be a better subject for their experiments, but they failed also, though the experience was frightening to some of the sleepers.

b) It seems to me that spiritual anguish comes in the form of knowledge and remorse, as you suggest here. This has nothing to do with my Hell dream, it just makes sense to me.

c) An infinity of torment: No idea on this. Doesn't make sense to me either but I'm not inclined to second guess the creator of the universe. My mother died recently, so some boxes of her belongings were shipped to me. Today I've been going through these things, throwing out more than 90% of them as total garbage. Maybe spirits who have done so much evil are like that: irredeemable. I use the example of discarded belongings because our sense of our own worth may be much greater than that of someone else, who may be indifferent. My guess is that spirits do not die or cease to exist, so from that point of view, it would make sense to try to raise them all up rather than sweep the bad ones under the rug. Reincarnation is one method that seems to accomplish that goal.

d) I have no idea. Sometimes I have very detailed dreams and a good memory of them. This one was very detailed but I only remembered that I had been there and seen it, rather than the particulars of what it was like and how it functioned. I get the feeling that "condemned", if it happens, occurs due to one's own choice rather than an independent observer sending a spirit to Hell against its' own will. I picture it kind of like a person who has done something so embarrassing that he avoids friends, family, and work colleagues because he daren't show his face.

 

[Andrew Paquette]

I mean this came out of a discussion about the idea that spiritual reality has many graduations of coarseness. So if you accept your vision as real, would you take it that there are all those graduations, but underneath that there is Hell for the utterly incorrigibly evil individuals?

Perhaps if souls cannot be destroyed, they go there to keep them out harm's way?

David

The Hell dream is separate from my beliefs on these things. As I just explained to Alex the other day, I am happy to report what I have dreamed but that does not mean I accept my dreams at face value. Maybe the dream of Hell was 100% accurate. I don't know. It makes sense to me that a certain level of spiritual strength allows us to bear more or less "light". The more we can stand, the closer we are to "Heaven", the more averse we are to it, the closer to "Hell". Whether there is a pre-infinity endpoint on either end of the scale, I couldn't say. I wouldn't be surprised to learn there is a margin or buffer on either end, where anything above a certain level is Heaven, and anything below a different and lower level is Hell. In-between, there are many more levels than are found within the margins. These represent neither Heaven nor Hell, but steps on the path to either.

 

[David Bailey]

The Hell dream is separate from my beliefs on these things. As I just explained to Alex the other day, I am happy to report what I have dreamed but that does not mean I accept my dreams at face value. Maybe the dream of Hell was 100% accurate. I don't know. It makes sense to me that a certain level of spiritual strength allows us to bear more or less "light". The more we can stand, the closer we are to "Heaven", the more averse we are to it, the closer to "Hell". Whether there is a pre-infinity endpoint on either end of the scale, I couldn't say. I wouldn't be surprised to learn there is a margin or buffer on either end, where anything above a certain level is Heaven, and anything below a different and lower level is Hell. In-between, there are many more levels than are found within the margins. These represent neither Heaven nor Hell, but steps on the path to either.

Thanks for that! It seems to me that a level where people are 'reasonably nice' to one another is preferable - more interesting - to a state of extreme perfection - perhaps I am just not ready for that!

David

 

[Mark Ireland]

My son Ryan, a registered nurse, died suddenly Sunday Sept 5 of heart failure, a ruptured aorta. He was into competitive weightlifting and we believe this contributed to his death. He was 33. As a Christian I should not question the fact that he is with God now as I believe all nurses go to Heaven. He was a good boy and a good man. But I remain overcome by grief and a longing to know he is well. Is there anything Trisha can do to help me?

I am also happy to furnish you with the names and contact information for some good Mediums. I actually run a certification program and put applicants through 5 double-blind test readings to achieve certification. I do this completely at my own expense as a public service. Bob Olson's site provides Medium recommendations, but they are on the list solely on the basis of testimonials from sitters.

In addition to the those I've tested, I know some other more prominent Mediums who are very good (but who tend to charge more). If you're interested just send me an email at irelandmarks@gmail.com and I'll share some recommendations. I tried to attach a copy of my first book for you here as a gift, but the file was too large. If you'd like a copy just email me; it may help you understand a bit more about Mediumship and help you reconcile Christian beliefs with these phenomena. Anyone else who sees this post and is interested is welcome to download the book too. Peace, Mark

 

[Mark Ireland]

No we don't Bloody Irish.
But seriously, I also really enjoyed this show.
I'd never heard of Tricia before, but I'll make the effort to find her books now.
I'm not at Alex's Stage 3 yet - still getting a handle on how compelling the evidence for mediumship being evidence of survival rather than "super psi".

If you're interested in reading it, I've attached a few pages from my second book here that are pertinent to this topic. It's a report of my direct experience, serving as a proxy sitter with Medium Debra Martin (in unplanned, spontaneous fashion) for a friend whose brother had just died. I know that the cross-correspondence cases are the gold standard for survival evidence, but if so this case is at least silver evidence. And I experienced it directly. Most of the story is captured in the first 9 pages, while the balance of the pages come from a later chapter and provide a recap of the experience with Debra and some other relevant information. Mark

 

[Andrew Paquette]

Thanks for that! It seems to me that a level where people are 'reasonably nice' to one another is preferable - more interesting - to a state of extreme perfection - perhaps I am just not ready for that!

David

And now my far more numerous dreams of "Heaven"-like locales come to mind. From the vivid memories I retain of those dreams, there isn't anything preferable to being able to exist on that plane. That said, in one such dream, I was told explicitly that the reason "Heaven" is what it is, is that only those who are without taint can exist there. I don't think of it as an exclusive club where some people are prevented entry, but a locale that only spirits with specific qualities can reach. It is a bit like fish not being able to survive on land, and people can't fly. Spirits have strengths and weaknesses. Any weakness of any kind, as I understand it, makes it impossible to remain at the "Heaven" level of existence for any length of time. For those who do have the strength, it is marvelous. For those who don't, it is a tremendous incentive to build it up.

 

[Typoz]

If you're interested in reading it, I've attached a few pages from my second book here that are pertinent to this topic. It's a report of my direct experience, serving as a proxy sitter with Medium Debra Martin (in unplanned, spontaneous fashion) for a friend whose brother had just died. I know that the cross-correspondence cases are the gold standard for survival evidence, but if so this case is at least silver evidence. And I experienced it directly. Most of the story is captured in the first 9 pages, while the balance of the pages come from a later chapter and provide a recap of the experience with Debra and some other relevant information. Mark

Mark, I found your writings of your experiences very interesting. I hope you don't mind, I linked to it over on the Psience Quest forum as I think it is of broad interest to readers there too.
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-text-resources-thread?pid=37997#pid37997

You're welcome to join us on that forum too, if you wish.

Regards, Typoz