Trump Consciousness

#1
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9/3/19 - Update. If you post to this thread please maintain proper decorum and always be polite (moderator please take note).

If you can't be nice, post somewhere else.

If you have problems controlling your emotions, it is probably better if you just stay out of this thread.

Clarification: Please refrain from sarcasm and satire because that can provoke animosity. I would like this thread to be a place to discuss Trump and related issues in an objective manner and in as friendly as way as possible.
 
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#2
Jim,

I would rather we didn't spread Trump everywhere, remember that we are primarily focussed on a rather different topic. Maybe this could be moved to the Qanon thread?

David
 
#3
Thanks! I suggest that if you copy/paste your stuff to the Qanon thread, and let me know by pm, I'll delete this thread so this section returns to extended consciousness!


David
 
#4
Thanks! I suggest that if you copy/paste your stuff to the Qanon thread, and let me know by pm, I'll delete this thread so this section returns to extended consciousness!

David
Go ahead and delete the thread. I have copies of the posts.

I deleted everything else here that I could. I don't want to post them to Charlie's thread for the same reasons I started this one.
 
#5
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9/3/19 - Update. If you post to this thread please maintain proper decorum and always be polite (moderator please take note).

If you can't be nice, post somewhere else.

If you have problems controlling your emotions, it is probably better if you just stay out of this thread.
In the other thread someone criticized Trump's understanding of economics and mentioned tariffs...

I think it would be useful to point out the problems with China Trump is trying to address: Technology theft, counterfeiting and piracy, corporate espionage, reverse engineering, unfair regulations applied to foreign corporations in China, etc.

China is not going to give up these practices easily. It is going to take a very strong disincentive to the status quo for them to be willing to change.

China has been waging economic war against the US and the rest of the world for years. This has cost the US billions of dollars. That is money out of the pockets of US citizens. Trump is the only president who has had the backbone to stand up to Chinese economic aggression. while Obama looked the other way after accepting illegal campaign donations from China.

People can understand that there are economic consequences to an physical military attack on the US, and they should also understand that when the aggression is economic there will also be a cost to defending our national interests.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FINAL-China-Technology-Report-6.18.18-PDF.pdf
How China’s Economic Aggression Threatens the Technologies and Intellectual Property of the United States and the World​
White House Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy June 2018​

 
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#7
Reposting because ... why not?


Why does Trump get such uniformly negative coverage in the media? Why during the 2016 election were the Democrats, the Clintons, the Obamas, the Bushes, the CIA, the FBI, Italian intelligence, British Intelligence, New Zealand intelligence, the mainstream media, the never Trump Republicans all united and working against Trump?

It is because Trump is not controlled by the internationalist globalist shadow world government and he is an existential threat to their continued ability to suck money out of the American public.

From Trump's inauguration speech

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/full-text-donald-trump-inauguration-speech-transcript-233907



For too long, a small group in our nation's capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have borne the cost.Washington flourished, but the people did not share in its wealth. Politicians prospered, but the jobs left. And the factories closed.​
...​
The establishment protected itself but not the citizens of our country. Their victories have not been your victories. Their triumphs have not been your triumphs. And while they celebrated in our nation’s capital, there was little to celebrate for struggling families all across our land.​
...​
an education system flush with cash but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of all knowledge​
...​



I posted this video before but I am reposting it because I found the full speech it was excerpted from and am posting both of them together.



Our movement is about replacing a failed and corrupt political establishment with a new government controlled by you the American people.​
The Washington establishment and the financial and media corporations that fund it exists for only one reason: to protect and enrich itself.​
The establishment has trillions of dollars at stake in this election.​
For those who control the levers of power in Washington and for the global special interests they partner with, these people that don't have your good in mind, our campaign represents a true existential threat like they haven't seen before.​
This is not simply another four-year election. This is a crossroads in the history of our civilization that will determine whether or not we the people reclaim control over our government.​
The political establishment that is trying to stop us is the same group responsible for our disastrous trade deals massive illegal immigration and economic and foreign policies that have bled our country dry.​
The political establishment has brought about the destruction of our factories and our jobs as they flee to Mexico China and other countries all around the world.​
It's a global power structure that is responsible for the economic decisions that have robbed our working class, stripped our country of its wealth, and put that money into the pockets of a handful of large corporations and political entities.​
This this is a struggle for the survival of our nation and this will be our last chance to save it.​
This election will determine whether we're a free nation or whether we have only the illusion of democracy but are in fact controlled by a small handful of global special interests rigging the system, and our system is rigged, this is reality.​
You know it, they know it, I know it, and pretty much the whole world knows it.​
The Clinton machine is at the center of this power structure.​
We've seen this firsthand in the WikiLeaks documents in which Hillary Clinton meets in secret with international banks to plot the destruction of US sovereignty in order to enrich these global financial powers, her special interest friends, and her donors. Honestly she should be locked up.​
The most powerful weapon deployed by the Clintons is the corporate media the press.​
Let's be clear on one thing, the corporate media in our country is no longer involved in journalism. They're a political special interest no different than any lobbyist or other financial entity with a total political agenda and the agenda is not for you it's for themselves.​
Anyone who challenges their control is deemed a sexist a racist a xenophobe.​
They will lie lie lie, and then again they will do worse than that.​
They will do whatever is necessary.​
The Clintons are criminals remember that this is well document and the establishment that protects them has engaged in a massive cover-up of widespread criminal activity at the State Department and the Clinton Foundation in order to keep the Clintons in power.​
They knew they would throw every lie they could at me and my family and my loved ones.​
They knew they would stop at nothing to try to stop me.​
Nevertheless I take all of these slings and arrows gladly for you.​
I take them for our movement so that we can have our country back.​
I knew this day would arrive.​
It's only a question of when.​
And I knew the American people would rise above it and vote for the future they deserve.​
The only thing that can stop this corrupt machine is you.​
The only force strong enough to save our country is us.​
The only people brave enough to vote out this corrupt establishment is you the American people.​
Our great civilization has come upon a moment of reckoning.​
I didn't need to do this I built a great company and I had a wonderful life.​
I could have enjoyed the fruits and benefit of years of successful business deals and businesses for myself my family instead of going through this absolute horror show of lies deceptions malicious attacks.​
Who would have thought.​
I'm doing it because this country has given me so much and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love.​
I'm doing this for the people and for the movement and we will take back this country for you and we will make America great again.​



Full speech.



I've marked where the excerpts were taken in bold with corresponding numbers.



Wow. What a group. What a group. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, folks. Thank you, folks. It's great to be right here in Florida, which we love.



In 26 days, we are going to win this great, great state and we are going to win the White House.



(1) Our movement is about replacing a failed and corrupt — now, when I say "corrupt," I'm talking about totally corrupt — political establishment, with a new government controlled by you, the American people.



There is nothing the political establishment will not do — no lie that they won't tell, to hold their prestige and power at your expense. And that's what's been happening.



(2) The Washington establishment and the financial and media corporations that fund it exist for only one reason: to protect and enrich itself.



(3) The establishment has trillions of dollars at stake in this election.As an example, just one single trade deal they'd like to pass involves trillions of dollars, controlled by many countries, corporations and lobbyists.



(4) For those who control the levers of power in Washington, and for the global special interests, they partner with these people that don't have your good in mind. Our campaign represents a true existential threat like they haven't seen before.



(5) This is not simply another four-year election. This is a crossroads in the history of our civilization that will determine whether or not we the people reclaim control over our government.



(6) The political establishment that is trying to stop us is the same group responsible for our disastrous trade deals, massive illegal immigration and economic and foreign policies that have bled our country dry.



(7) The political establishment has brought about the destruction of our factories, and our jobs, as they flee to Mexico, China and other countries all around the world. Our just-announced job numbers are anemic. Our gross domestic product, or GDP, is barely above 1 percent. And going down. Workers in the United States are making less than they were almost 20 years ago, and yet they are working harder.



But so am I working harder, that I can tell you.



(8) It's a global power structure that is responsible for the economic decisions that have robbed our working class, stripped our country of its wealth and put that money into the pockets of a handful of large corporations and political entities.



Just look at what this corrupt establishment has done to our cities like Detroit; Flint, Michigan; and rural towns in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina and all across our country. Take a look at what's going on. They stripped away these towns bare. And raided the wealth for themselves and taken our jobs away out of our country never to return unless I'm elected president.



(12) The Clinton machine is at the center of this power structure.



(13) We've seen this first hand in the WikiLeaks documents, in which Hillary Clinton meets in secret with international banks to plot the destruction of U.S. sovereignty in order to enrich these global financial powers, her special interest friends and her donors.

So true.

Honestly, she should be locked up. Should be locked up.



And likewise the e-mails show that the Clinton machine is so closely and irrevocably tied to the media organizations that she, that she — listen to this — is given the questions and answers in advance of her debate performance with Bernie Sanders.



Hillary Clinton is also given approval and veto power over quotes written about her in the New York Times.



They definitely do not do that to me, that I can tell you.



And the e-mails show the reporters collaborate and conspire directly with the Clinton campaign on helping her win the election all over.



With their control over our government at stake, with trillions of dollars on the line, the Clinton machine is determined to achieve the destruction of our campaign, not gonna to happen.



Which has now become a great, great movement, the likes of which our country has never seen before, never ever.



They've never seen a movement like this in our country before. Yesterday in Florida, massive crowds, people lined up outside of big arenas, not able to get in. Never happened before. It's one of the phenomenas — it's one of the great political phenomenas.



(14) The most powerful weapon deployed by the Clintons is the corporate media, the press.



(15) Let's be clear on one thing, the corporate media in our country is no longer involved in journalism. They're a political special interest no different than any lobbyist or other financial entity with a total political agenda, and the agenda is not for you, it's for themselves.



And their agenda is to elect crooked Hillary Clinton at any cost, at any price, no matter how many lives they destroy.



For them it's a war, and for them nothing at all is out of bounds.



(9) This is a struggle for the survival of our nation, believe me. And this will be our last chance to save it on Nov. 8, remember that.



(10) This election will determine whether we are a free nation or whether we have only the illusion of democracy, but are in fact controlled by a small handful of global special interests rigging the system, and our system is rigged. This is reality.



(11) You know it, they know it, I know it, and pretty much the whole world knows it. The establishment and their media enablers will control over this nation through means that are very well known.



(16) Anyone who challenges their control is deemed a sexist, a racist, a xenophobe, and morally deformed.



They will attack you, they will slander you, they will seek to destroy your career and your family, they will seek to destroy everything about you, including your reputation.



(17) They will lie, lie, lie, and then again they will do worse than that.



(18) They will do whatever is necessary.



(19) The Clintons are criminals, remember that. They're criminals. This is well documented, and the establishment that protects them has engaged in a massive cover-up of widespread criminal activity at the State Department and the Clinton Foundation in order to keep the Clintons in power.



Never in history have we seen such a cover-up as this, one that includes the total destruction of 33,000 e-mails, 13 iPhones – some by hammer – laptops, missing boxes of evidence, and many, many other things.



People who are capable of such crimes against our nation are capable of anything. And so now we address the slander and libels that was just last night thrown at me by the Clinton machine and the New York Times and other media outlets, as part of a concerted, coordinated and vicious attack.



It's not coincidence that these attacks come at the exact same moment, and all together at the same time as WikiLeaks releases documents exposing the massive international corruption of the Clinton machine, including 2,000 more e-mails just this morning.



These vicious claims about me of inappropriate conduct with women are totally and absolutely false.



And the Clintons know it, and they know it very well. These claims are all fabricated. They're pure fiction and they're outright lies. These events never, ever happened and the people that said them meekly fully understand. You take a look at these people, you study these people, and you'll understand also.



The claims are preposterous, ludicrous, and defy truth, common sense and logic. We already have substantial evidence to dispute these lies, and it will be made public in an appropriate way and at an appropriate time very soon.



These lies come from outlets whose past stories and past claims have already been discredited. The media outlets did not even attempt to confirm the most basic facts because even a simple investigation would have shown that these were nothing more than false smears.



Six months ago, the failing New York Times wrote a massive story attacking me, and the central witness they used said the story was false; that she was quoted inaccurately. She said that I was a great guy. She had great courage, I'll be honest with you. She was an amazing person. And never made those remarks — that I was a great guy, and never made the remarks.



And when I read the story, I was sort of surprised — how could she say that? And she didn't say it.



We demanded a retraction but, they refused to print it, just like they refused to print the comments from another source who praised me in her book, or the words of another wonderful woman who said really nice things about me. They put other statements that she didn't say, they misrepresented. The story was a fraud and a big embarrassment to The New York Times and it was a big front page story. Front page, center, color picture, a disgrace. They were very embarrassed; it will be part of the lawsuit we are preparing against them.



Now, today the same two discredited writers, who should've been fired from The New York Times for what they did, tell another totally fabricated and false story, that supposedly took place on an airplane more than 30 years ago. Another ridiculous tale, no witnesses, no nothing.



Then, there was a writer from People Magazine, who wrote a story on Melania and myself on our first anniversary. The story was beautiful. It was beautiful. It was lovely. But last night we hear that after 12 years — this took place 12 years ago, this story — a new claim that I made inappropriate advances during the interview to this writer.



And I asked very simple question, why wasn't it part of the story that appeared 20 or 12 years ago? Why wasn't it a part of the story? Why didn't they make it part of the story? I was one of the biggest stars on television with The Apprentice and I would've been one of the biggest stories of the year. Think of it, she's doing this story on Melania, who was pregnant at the time. And Donald Trump, our one year anniversary, and she said I made inappropriate advances, and by the way, the area was a public area, people all over the place.



Take a look, you take a look. Look at her, look at her words. You tell me, what you think. I don't think so. I don't think so.



But, it is amazing, doing a story — a love story — on how great we are together — and by the way, we're stronger today than we ever were before, which is good, but it's a love story. It's a love story on our one year. And if I did that, she would've added that it would've been the headline. And who would've done that if you're doing this and you're one of the top shows on television.



These people are horrible people. They're horrible, horrible liars. And interestingly, it happens to appear 26 days before our very important election, isn't that amazing?



This invented account has already been debunked by eyewitnesses who were there. They were there. The very witness identified by the author has said the story is totally false.



By the way, this is a room that everybody can see in. It's got glass walls. It's at Mar-A-Lago. It's got glass walls. Can you believe this? Why wasn't it in the story, biggest story of the year?



This weekend, The New York Times published a full-page hit piece with another claim from an individual who has been totally discredited based on the many, many, many e-mails and letters she has sent to our office over the years, looking for work, Donald is great, wanting go to my rallies. But The New York Times — and this was full op-ed piece — refused to use the evidence that we presented, refused to use it. If they used it, if they would have looked, they would have said, there's no story here.



Others in the media, which almost surprises me because they're dishonest also, were presented with the story by this woman numerous times, and they got very excited. But, after seeing the evidence that we immediately give them, all of them refused to write the story. There was no story.



The Times, though, didn't want to see it. They just wrote the story. And this was a full page opposite the editorials. This is part of a concerted effort, led by The New York Times and others. Now The New York Times is fighting desperately for its relevance and its financial survival. And it probably won't even be around in a few years, based on its financial outlook, which wouldn't be a bad thing, if you want to know the truth.



But, as it winds down its years and is becoming more and more problematic, it's gotten more and more vicious, more and more vile. And even the other mainstream media is talking about the single greatest pile-on in history, and all between now and Nov. 8. And you have to see the stories they've written, it's one after another, after another, and facts mean nothing, third-rate journalism. The great editors of the past from The New York Times and others, ladies and gentlemen, are spinning in their grave.



I will not allow the Clinton machine to turn our campaign into a discussion of their slanders and lies, but, will remain focused on the issues facing the American people.



Thank you, thank you. But, let me state this as clearly as I can, these attacks are orchestrated by the Clintons and their media allies. The only thing Hillary Clinton has going for herself is the press, without the press, she is absolutely zero.



And you saw that the other night in the debate, where some people said she made virtually a fool of herself. This is not presidential material, believe me. What they say is false and slanderous in virtually every respect. We are now less than a month from the most election of our lifetime. Indeed one of the most important elections in the history of our country. And the polls are showing us in a dead heat. Don't believe what you say.



The new, highly respected Rasmussen poll just came out this morning. Just released. Shows up nationally 2 points ahead, Trump. Beautiful.



Just came out. So now the Clinton machine has put forward a small handful of people out of tens of thousands of people over the years that I've met, that I've worked with, that I've employed, in order to make wild and false allegations that fail to meet even the most basic test of common sense. Not even common sense.



Again, this is nothing more than an attempt to destroy our movement and for the Clintons to keep their corrupt control over our government. When I declared my candidacy, I knew what bad shape our country was in. And believe me, all you have to do is look at world events. All you have to do is look at the $1.7 billion that we sent to Iran in cash – in cash.



All you have to do is see the way ISIS was created in the vacuum left by Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama out of Iraq. All you have to do, all you have to do, is look at the 800 people that were very, very not good for our nation. They were going to be deported. Lo and behold, instead of being deported, they were made citizens of the United States just recently.



And lo and behold, sadly, the 800 people is wrong. It turned out to be close to 1,800 people. Our president is incompetent. All he wants to do is campaign, and the last thing he wants to happen is to have Donald Trump terminate Obamacare and do all of the other things that are destroying ...



He's led a very divided nation and it's only gotten worse. And the last thing our country needs is four more years of Barack Obama, believe me. I've seen firsthand the corruption and the sickness that has taken over our politics. You've seen it and I've seen it and we're all watching together.



(20) They knew they would throw every lie they could at me and my family and my loved ones.



(21) They knew they would stop at nothing to try to stop me. But I never knew as bad as it would be. I never knew it would be this vile, that it would be this bad, that it would be this vicious.



(22) Nevertheless, I take all of these slings and arrows gladly for you.



(23) I take them for our movement so that we can have our country back.



(30) Our great civilization, here in America and across the civilized world has come upon a moment of reckoning. We've seen it in the United Kingdom, where they voted to liberate themselves from global government and global trade deal, and global immigration deals that have destroyed their sovereignty and have destroyed many of those nations. But, the central base of world political power is right here in America, and it is our corrupt political establishment that is the greatest power behind the efforts at radical globalization and the disenfranchisement of working people. Their financial resources are virtually unlimited, their political resources are unlimited, their media resources are unmatched, and most importantly, the depths of their immorality is absolutely unlimited.



They will allow radical Islamic terrorists to enter our country by the thousands.



They will allow the great Trojan horse — and I don't want people looking back in a hundred years and 200 years and have that story be told about us because we were led by inept, incompetent and corrupt people like Barack Obama and like Hillary Clinton. We don't want to be part of that history.



And by the way, President Obama should stop campaigning and start working on creating jobs, start working on getting our GDP up, start working on strengthening our borders.



The corrupt political establishment is a machine, it has no soul. I knew these false attacks would come.



(24) I knew this day would arrive.



(25) It's only a question of when.



(26) And I knew the American people would rise above it and vote for the future they deserve.



(27) The only thing that can stop this corrupt machine is you.



(28) The only force strong enough to save our country is us.



(29) The only people brave enough to vote out this corrupt establishment is you, the American people.



We are going to have a policy: America first.



They control incredibly, the Department of Justice.



And they even secretly meet with the Attorney General of the United States. In the back of her airplane, while on the runway — remember he was there — he was going to play golf. Oh, oh gee, there's the Attorney General. Let me go say hello — plane's on the runway. Let me go say hello to the Attorney General. He never got to play golf, I understand. And it was Arizona, a place I love, but the weather was about a hundred and some odd degrees — he's not gonna play. He was never there to play golf, folks, don't be foolish.



They met for 39 minutes and most likely it was to discuss her reappointment, in a Clinton administration, as the Attorney General, just prior to making a decision over whether or not to prosecute Hillary Clinton, okay? That's what happened. That's called real life and that's pretty sad.



They met for 39 minutes. Remember he said, we talked golf and we talked about our grandchildren. Three minutes for the grandchildren, two minutes for the golf, then they sat there and they twiddled their thumbs. Now I believe they talked about her remaining in her position under a crooked Hillary Clinton administration. That's what I believe. That's what I believe folks. That's what I believe and I think that's what most people in this room believe.



Likewise, they've essentially corrupted the Director of the FBI to the point at which stories are already saying that the great — and they are truly great — men and women who work for the FBI are embarrassed and ashamed of what he's done to one of our truly great institutions, the FBI itself.



Hillary Clinton is guilty of all the things that Director Comey stated at his press conference and Congressional hearings and far more. He stated many things, but it's far more and he knows that. And yet, after reading all of these items, where she's so guilty, he let her off the hook. While other lives, including General Petraeus and many others, have been destroyed for doing far, far less. This is a conspiracy against you, the American people, and we cannot let this happen or continue.



This is our moment of reckoning as a society and as a civilization itself.



(31) I didn't need to do this, folks, believe me — believe me. I built a great company and I had a wonderful life.



(32) I could have enjoyed the fruits and benefits of years of successful business deals and businesses for myself and my family. Instead of going through this absolute horror show of lies, deceptions, malicious attacks.



(33) Who would have thought?



(34) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much, and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love.



Many of my friends and many political experts warned me that this campaign would be a journey to hell – said that. But they're wrong. It will be a journey to heaven, because we will help so many people that are so desperately in need of help.



In my former life, I was an insider as much as anybody else. And I knew what it's like, and I still know what it's like to be an insider. It's not bad. It's not bad. Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on having to do with our country. Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one that can fix it.



(35) I'm doing this for the people and for the movement, and we will take back this country for you and we will make America great again.



The corrupt establishment knows that we are a great threat to their criminal enterprise. They know that if we win, their power is gone, and it's returned to you, the people, will be. The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted and replaced with a bright future. But it all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future or whether we let the American people decide our future.



If this Clinton campaign of destruction is allowed to work, then no other highly success — and this is so true, I mean I've seen this so many times, and I've heard this all of my life, I've heard it all of my life. If we let this happen, then no other highly-successful person, which is what our country needs — it needs a certain thinking. When you look at our trade deals that are so bad, when you look, as an example, on trade, we're going to lose almost $800 billion this year, trade deficit, almost $800 billion. Our debt has doubled in seven and a half years to almost $20 trillion, under Obama.



No other successful person, after watching this, and no other very successful person will ever again, ever — and who can blame them? Even me, I'd say, you're right — will ever again run for office. I've heard it for years, if you're very successful, you can't run for high office, especially for President. I said, I don't care, I don't care. I've done so many deals, I've done so well. It's a certain mindset that we need in our country, at least for a period of time. We have to straighten our country out.



I will not lie to you. These false attacks are absolutely hurtful. To be lied about, to be slandered, to be smeared so publicly, and before your family that you love, is very painful. What is going on is egregious beyond any words. People that know the story, people that see the story, people that know the facts, they can't even believe it. It's reprehensible beyond description, it's totally corrupt.



But, I also know that it's not about me. It's about all of you and it's about our country. I know that. I fully understand that. That's why I got involved. It's about all of us together as a country. It's a movement the likes of which we have never in history in this country seen before, never in history. Even the pundits, even the media — that truly dislikes Donald Trump for their own reasons — will admit this is a movement the likes of which people have never seen before.



And it's a movement about the veterans who need medical care, the mothers who've lost their beloved children to terrorism and to crime. It's about the inner cities and the border towns who desperately need our help. It's about the millions of jobless people in America. It's about the American workers who can't get jobs because our jobs have left for Mexico and so many other countries.



This election is about the people being crushed by Obamacare. And it's about defeating ISIS and appointing a Supreme Court and a Supreme Court Justice --- it could be four or five — who will defend and protect our Constitution.



This election is also about, so importantly to me, African-American and Hispanic-American people whose communities have been plunged into crime, poverty and failing schools by the policies of crooked Hillary Clinton. Believe me, she's crooked.



They've robbed these citizens of their future and, if we win, I will give them their hope, their jobs, their education. I will give them their security back. The inner cities, education is almost worthless, it's horrible. We're going to have Common Core ended. We're going to bring education local.



But, you look at the inner cities and you see bad education, no jobs, no safety. You walk to the grocery store with your child and you get shot. You walk outside to look and see what's happening and you get shot. In Chicago, 3,000 people have been shot since Jan. 1. We're not going to let that happen. Our inner cities are almost at an all-time low, run by the Democrats for sometimes more than a hundred years, chain unbroken.



So they have no jobs. They have horrible education. They have no safety or security and I say to the African-American community, what the hell do you have to lose? I will fix it. I will fix it. I will make it good. I'll bring back our jobs. We'll have good education. We'll have great safety in the inner city.



And we will help the Hispanic-American people, who have been treated so badly and so unfairly in our nation, we will help them.



I will deliver like you've never seen before. I deliver. Whether people like Donald Trump or not, they all say he delivers.



Vote for Donald Trump. You're going to see something and you'll be so happy. You'll be so thrilled. This election is about every man, woman and child in our country who deserves to live in safety, prosperity and peace, so true. We will rise above the lies, the smears, the ludicrous slanders from ludicrous and very, very dishonest reporters.



We will vote for the country we want. We will vote for the future we want. We will vote for the politics we want and we will vote to put this corrupt government cartel out of business and out of business immediately.



We will vote for the special interests and say lots of luck, but you're being voted out of power. They've betrayed our workers, they've betrayed our borders and, most of all, they've betrayed our freedoms. We will save our sovereign rights as a nation. We will end the politics of profit. We will end the rule of special interests. We will end the raiding of our jobs by other countries. We will end the total disenfranchisement of the American voter and the American worker. Our Independence Day is at hand, and it arrives finally on Nov. 8.



Join me in taking back our country and creating a bright, glorious, and prosperous new future for our people. We will make America great again, and it will happen quickly.



God bless you. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you.
 
#8
In the other thread someone criticized Trump's understanding of economics and mentioned tariffs...

I think it would be useful to point out the problems with China Trump is trying to address: Technology theft, counterfeiting and piracy, corporate espionage, reverse engineering, unfair regulations applied to foreign corporations in China, etc.

China is not going to give up these practices easily. It is going to take a very strong disincentive to the status quo for them to be willing to change.

China has been waging economic war against the US and the rest of the world for years. This has cost the US billions of dollars. That is money out of the pockets of US citizens. Trump is the only president who has had the backbone to stand up to Chinese economic aggression. while Obama looked the other way after accepting illegal campaign donations from China.

People can understand that there are economic consequences to an physical military attack on the US, and they should also understand that when the aggression is economic there will also be a cost to defending our national interests.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FINAL-China-Technology-Report-6.18.18-PDF.pdf
How China’s Economic Aggression Threatens the Technologies and Intellectual Property of the United States and the World​
White House Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy June 2018​

Trump is not president of the globalist multinational corporate shadow world government.

He is president of the USA.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...-necessary-for-trump-to-fight-china-on-trade/
"Poll: 2-in-3 U.S. Voters Say ‘Necessary’ for Trump to Fight China on Trade"

The US is a wealthy country. But not all Americans are wealthy. When China and other countries use unfair trade practices it hurts poor Americans most. Why should elected officials in the US allow foreign countries to to get away with unfair practices that harm poor Americans?
 
#9
Why do you close a thread that was representing two sides of an issue and promote a one sided breitbart/fox alt right editorial?
Oops that wasn't really a question.
If you have something on topic to say feel free to post. All opinions are welcome. You have to maintain decorum.

Please don't make posts like this that are intended to disrupt the thread. Trolling is not allowed here. That is why the other thread was closed..
 
#10
It is because Trump is not controlled by the internationalist globalist shadow world government and he is an existential threat to their continued ability to suck money out of the American public.
Yes, and the awful irony is that the so-called Left call him a Right Wing Extremist.

I am old enough to remember the Real Left - whose number one concern was peace.

David
 
#11
Why does Trump get such uniformly negative coverage in the media? Why during the 2016 election were the Democrats, the Clintons, the Obamas, the Bushes, the CIA, the FBI, Italian intelligence, British Intelligence, New Zealand intelligence, the mainstream media, the never Trump Republicans all united and working against Trump?

It is because Trump is not controlled by the internationalist globalist shadow world government and he is an existential threat to their continued ability to suck money out of the American public.
Hi Jim

Trump has some passions about there USA and the rest of the world that are completely valid. His concerns about the adverse impact of globalism are legitimate and are shared by many, including people who have no sympathy with his politics at all. His issues about Chinese intellectual property theft are just as valid. They are also shared by many other people.

But there is a vast gulf of difference between people who can identify a problem and those who can fix it. Trump has represented himself as THE person who can sort the problem. Now, whether you think he is depends very much on where you get your information. And this is where the debate on Trump turns, frankly, to shit.

So before I go on I want to set my personal context. I share my home with a Trump fan. She has a PhD Applied Psychology and has studied Political Science. She is also losing her vision and relies on YouTube. I have Masters and Masters Honours degrees in Social Ecology. Since the beginning of December last year I have read or listened to 7 books in US political history, 2 books on US culture with a political theme, 2 books on psychology pertinent to US politics and 20 books on Trump. I can't count the YouTube and podcast hours. I am not an expert, just a fascinated outsider with several decades of passion for Australian politics under my belt [now so utterly depressing I have turned to the US for my political fix].

I do not think Trump is the man to fix the problem. He possesses none of the skills required. He does not understand government. He does not understand business [He claims to, but the evidence in public record says otherwise. He is skilled at enriching himself]. He tells lies relentlessly. The ghostwriter of his book - The Art of the Deal - coined the phrase "truthful hyperbole" about which he says "there is no such thing".Its a code for a lie.

There is a relentless avalanche of public record fact that confirms Trump is not fit to serve in the office of POTUS.Trump says this is all "fake news". It is true beyond a shadow of doubt that the media in the US and elsewhere is as biased against Trump as Fox is for him. But here's what I get from my housemate. Fox does not broadcast any of Trumps screw ups. The 'fake news' [CNN and MSNBC] do. Sure they are biased, and sure they will show Trmp screwing up. But its still Trump screwing up - unless, of course, you are my housemate who now tells me that CNN and MSNBC have a Trump impersonator who performs fake news for them. Really?

In the fog of this war there are no honest winners. BTW there is video of Trump saying he was going to demonise the mainstream media so he could ensure that none of his supporters would believe adverse reports against him.

He is no stable genius, but he is a genius at manipulating public opinion. That's what did Clinton in 2016. Among many other things, she did not get that.

So let's separate the ability to define a problem and the ability to solve a problem. Trump considered running for the US presidency in the 1980s, but he wisely figured the minor party he had aligned with was not the right vehicle. The sentiments he expressed then were repeated in his campaign.

He thinks globalism weakens a domestic economy. In some respects this is true. In other critical respects it is not. For example the retail sector, a huge employer, depends on the endless rivers of cheap crap flowing in from Asia. You can't replicate that in the US because you can't make it cheap enough. I agree with Trump. I despise globalism. But I also know that maybe up to 25% of the labour market depends on it.

The theft of US intellectual property by the Chinese was outrageous. It happened because the US was too dopey and slow to address the attack - as well as the Chinese being total thieves. But that's over now and fighting battles lost is kinda dumb. All it means is that stuff made in China and sold in the US doesn't pay back to the US.

The bigger untested danger concerns the military tech stolen by the Chinese and incorporated into their counters to US military power. Who knows what's going to happen there. But here's the US contracting out critical and secret jobs to US companies and not demanding absolute IT security. How dumb is that?

Trump's immigration thing is more complex and nuanced. Its a legit fear and a real problem. But you don't need the white supremacist shit as a basis for demanding tighter border control. America has depended on migration - and still does. But how is that managed? Not by fear and by lies. The problem on the southern border with Mexico is massive and it needs a significant commitment of resources to address it.

A wall from the Atlantic to the Pacific will not do the job. The people who strive to secure the southern border are not demanding it. Trump has said that the wall is going up, but it is not. There have been scarcely 64 miles of new wall replacing old wall put up. There is another 1.2 km private wall on private property. Not even the Democrats are denying that walls are the go in some places. The border security folk want wall plus other stuff.

Beyond that its hard to grasp any policy position Trump has is not opportunistic or reactive.

In the real world there is abundant public evidence that:
  • Trump lies constantly. He is routinely fact checked by the media showing Trump saying something on record [video] and evidence against the claim made.
  • Trump does not understand business operations. He has no actually strategic sense of how a business operates. He survives his frequent failures by following a strategy of deny and sue agressively.
  • He cheats at golf and at business. He attempted to stiff a paint supplier by not paying $30k odd, but the supplier knew his risk and sued Trump right back. That cost Trump around $100k extra. Its all on public record.
  • He lied about his origins, claiming his father loaned him $1m as a start up, and he paid him right back. It was way more than that, never paid back, and his father [illegally, it is claimed] helped him out when one of his casinos was in financial trouble.
  • He has either misconceived or mismanaged businesses into bankruptcy or dissolution - Trump University [around $25m paid in compensation]. his casinos, his airline, Trump steaks - and so on. The evidence is he's crap at running a business and he's crap at making deals - and he's nowhere near worth the money he says he has.
My housemate, frustrated by endless recitations of Trump's failings, demanded I say positive about the man. That's hard:
  • He cheats staff out of wages, but he is kind to them, apparently
  • He promotes American businesses but researchers have not been able to find anything American made in his shops on golf courses - all chinese.
  • Virtually nothing in any of his hotels is US made.
  • He routinely hired undocumented workers across his many properties and then sacked them when he made employment of undocumented workers an issue.
This is all public record. Former employees are suing him. Its all on record.

This is all mild stuff that goes to his character. On the political stage it gets ludicrously catastrophic - again on public record but not reported on Fox.

Trump is not fit for public office at any level, let alone POTUS. If you want to argue the point I have bucket loads of evidence. Trump has had decades of unguarded public exposure. He won't allow his tax returns to be made public because he knows his claims to be a billionaire will be exposed, and his links with Russia will be revealed.

The only thing that is preventing a slam dunk impeachment indictment is the utter assurance that [Moscow] Mitch McConnell will kill anything hurting Trump. There is nonsense that the Dems do not have the evidence. The evidence is not the issue, it is whether any can get by the senate - audit can't. So a lower house action has a symbolic impact only.

Trumps' connection with Russia has been traced back to the 1980s. Fox says this is a hoax, but the counter evidence suggests that grounds for concern are grave indeed. Trump has unrecorded and unwitnessed meetings with Putin and in Helsinki backed Putin against his own security services at a press conference. WTF? The optics were bad and the politics catastrophic.

It has been recently reported that at an Eastern power conference that Putin told the gathering that he would force "Donald" to buy Russian weapons to 'keep the balance". Trump has so obviously exceeded Putin's use by date he can be insulted in this manner in public.

I could go on. Trump is not fit as POTUS. The evidence against the motion is overwhelming and the evidence for is flimsy at best,
 
#12
Hi Jim

Trump has some passions about there USA and the rest of the world that are completely valid. His concerns about the adverse impact of globalism are legitimate and are shared by many, including people who have no sympathy with his politics at all. His issues about Chinese intellectual property theft are just as valid. They are also shared by many other people.

But there is a vast gulf of difference between people who can identify a problem and those who can fix it. Trump has represented himself as THE person who can sort the problem. Now, whether you think he is depends very much on where you get your information. And this is where the debate on Trump turns, frankly, to shit.

So before I go on I want to set my personal context. I share my home with a Trump fan. She has a PhD Applied Psychology and has studied Political Science. She is also losing her vision and relies on YouTube. I have Masters and Masters Honours degrees in Social Ecology. Since the beginning of December last year I have read or listened to 7 books in US political history, 2 books on US culture with a political theme, 2 books on psychology pertinent to US politics and 20 books on Trump. I can't count the YouTube and podcast hours. I am not an expert, just a fascinated outsider with several decades of passion for Australian politics under my belt [now so utterly depressing I have turned to the US for my political fix].

I do not think Trump is the man to fix the problem. He possesses none of the skills required. He does not understand government. He does not understand business [He claims to, but the evidence in public record says otherwise. He is skilled at enriching himself]. He tells lies relentlessly. The ghostwriter of his book - The Art of the Deal - coined the phrase "truthful hyperbole" about which he says "there is no such thing".Its a code for a lie.

There is a relentless avalanche of public record fact that confirms Trump is not fit to serve in the office of POTUS.Trump says this is all "fake news". It is true beyond a shadow of doubt that the media in the US and elsewhere is as biased against Trump as Fox is for him. But here's what I get from my housemate. Fox does not broadcast any of Trumps screw ups. The 'fake news' [CNN and MSNBC] do. Sure they are biased, and sure they will show Trmp screwing up. But its still Trump screwing up - unless, of course, you are my housemate who now tells me that CNN and MSNBC have a Trump impersonator who performs fake news for them. Really?

In the fog of this war there are no honest winners. BTW there is video of Trump saying he was going to demonise the mainstream media so he could ensure that none of his supporters would believe adverse reports against him.

He is no stable genius, but he is a genius at manipulating public opinion. That's what did Clinton in 2016. Among many other things, she did not get that.

So let's separate the ability to define a problem and the ability to solve a problem. Trump considered running for the US presidency in the 1980s, but he wisely figured the minor party he had aligned with was not the right vehicle. The sentiments he expressed then were repeated in his campaign.

He thinks globalism weakens a domestic economy. In some respects this is true. In other critical respects it is not. For example the retail sector, a huge employer, depends on the endless rivers of cheap crap flowing in from Asia. You can't replicate that in the US because you can't make it cheap enough. I agree with Trump. I despise globalism. But I also know that maybe up to 25% of the labour market depends on it.

The theft of US intellectual property by the Chinese was outrageous. It happened because the US was too dopey and slow to address the attack - as well as the Chinese being total thieves. But that's over now and fighting battles lost is kinda dumb. All it means is that stuff made in China and sold in the US doesn't pay back to the US.

The bigger untested danger concerns the military tech stolen by the Chinese and incorporated into their counters to US military power. Who knows what's going to happen there. But here's the US contracting out critical and secret jobs to US companies and not demanding absolute IT security. How dumb is that?

Trump's immigration thing is more complex and nuanced. Its a legit fear and a real problem. But you don't need the white supremacist shit as a basis for demanding tighter border control. America has depended on migration - and still does. But how is that managed? Not by fear and by lies. The problem on the southern border with Mexico is massive and it needs a significant commitment of resources to address it.

A wall from the Atlantic to the Pacific will not do the job. The people who strive to secure the southern border are not demanding it. Trump has said that the wall is going up, but it is not. There have been scarcely 64 miles of new wall replacing old wall put up. There is another 1.2 km private wall on private property. Not even the Democrats are denying that walls are the go in some places. The border security folk want wall plus other stuff.

Beyond that its hard to grasp any policy position Trump has is not opportunistic or reactive.

In the real world there is abundant public evidence that:
  • Trump lies constantly. He is routinely fact checked by the media showing Trump saying something on record [video] and evidence against the claim made.
  • Trump does not understand business operations. He has no actually strategic sense of how a business operates. He survives his frequent failures by following a strategy of deny and sue agressively.
  • He cheats at golf and at business. He attempted to stiff a paint supplier by not paying $30k odd, but the supplier knew his risk and sued Trump right back. That cost Trump around $100k extra. Its all on public record.
  • He lied about his origins, claiming his father loaned him $1m as a start up, and he paid him right back. It was way more than that, never paid back, and his father [illegally, it is claimed] helped him out when one of his casinos was in financial trouble.
  • He has either misconceived or mismanaged businesses into bankruptcy or dissolution - Trump University [around $25m paid in compensation]. his casinos, his airline, Trump steaks - and so on. The evidence is he's crap at running a business and he's crap at making deals - and he's nowhere near worth the money he says he has.
My housemate, frustrated by endless recitations of Trump's failings, demanded I say positive about the man. That's hard:
  • He cheats staff out of wages, but he is kind to them, apparently
  • He promotes American businesses but researchers have not been able to find anything American made in his shops on golf courses - all chinese.
  • Virtually nothing in any of his hotels is US made.
  • He routinely hired undocumented workers across his many properties and then sacked them when he made employment of undocumented workers an issue.
This is all public record. Former employees are suing him. Its all on record.

This is all mild stuff that goes to his character. On the political stage it gets ludicrously catastrophic - again on public record but not reported on Fox.

Trump is not fit for public office at any level, let alone POTUS. If you want to argue the point I have bucket loads of evidence. Trump has had decades of unguarded public exposure. He won't allow his tax returns to be made public because he knows his claims to be a billionaire will be exposed, and his links with Russia will be revealed.

The only thing that is preventing a slam dunk impeachment indictment is the utter assurance that [Moscow] Mitch McConnell will kill anything hurting Trump. There is nonsense that the Dems do not have the evidence. The evidence is not the issue, it is whether any can get by the senate - audit can't. So a lower house action has a symbolic impact only.

Trumps' connection with Russia has been traced back to the 1980s. Fox says this is a hoax, but the counter evidence suggests that grounds for concern are grave indeed. Trump has unrecorded and unwitnessed meetings with Putin and in Helsinki backed Putin against his own security services at a press conference. WTF? The optics were bad and the politics catastrophic.

It has been recently reported that at an Eastern power conference that Putin told the gathering that he would force "Donald" to buy Russian weapons to 'keep the balance". Trump has so obviously exceeded Putin's use by date he can be insulted in this manner in public.

I could go on. Trump is not fit as POTUS. The evidence against the motion is overwhelming and the evidence for is flimsy at best,
Your criticisms of Trump are ridiculous. It's all a bunch of nitpicking personal foibles - actually alleged foibles because we don't the truth of these things - that could be concocted and assembled against anyone, including you or me.

I've stiffed contractors myself. You know why? They didn't deliver as promised. And yey they tried to sue me. You have to fight them lest you get a rep as a pushover. Then they'll try to screw you.

Many great businessmen have experienced bankruptcy. A huge % of businesses fail. Bankruptcy code was established so people wouldn't be to afraid of total financial destruction to try new things.

A lot of what you refer is just plain "fake news". Someone makes up a story or an angle on a story and the media runs with it and you foolishly believe it.

Trump is doing great things for America and America is responding well as a result.

I remember liberals saying that Bill Clinton's personal life was no one's business when he was accused of rape and got caught lying about sex with an intern. Why is Trump's personal life our business?

As for impeachment, you are 100% delusional. On what grounds? Answer, there aren't any or the Democrats would have done it already. But you tell me. What grounds? What? Cite the Constitution because that is the law.

I love it when foreigners think they know all about America. They never do. You would d well to allow yourself to be brainwashed by the scurrilous media.
 
#13
I love it when foreigners think they know all about America. They never do. You would d well to allow yourself to be brainwashed by the scurrilous media.
The trouble is, that over here none of the media take Trump seriously. A few, like the BBC and the Guardian hate him, while others are kinder but seem to see him as a source of humour. We don't have the equivalent of Fox News - but of course Fox News seems to be fairly honest, in that you get full details of the issues that are fudged over elsewhere - and the details often matter. I imagine many regular listeners to the BBC must be amazed that Trump is still in power after all the stories against him and about his impending impeachment! I dare say something similar applies in Australia.

Paradoxically, another interesting source of news is RT.COM. For example, reading there, I knew that the "White Helmets" where extremist fighters against Assad, who would arrange 'gas attacks' against their 'own' trapped civilians, or I think in other cases just try to fake the evidence altogether, just to try to pull the US in strongly against Assad. Fortunately neither Obama not Trump fell for that ruse - though they had different ways of dealing with it! I am sure most media outlets must have known the truth, but chose not to reveal it - treason in my books. I would think very few people over here know the truth about those gas attacks, or the fact that a White Helmet tactic has been to station anti-aircraft batteries and the like on top of hospitals and schools!

David
 
#14
I think you should realise that Jim, Eric and I don't support Trump out of perversity, or out of a secret desire to feel part of the mega-rich crowd. All three of us have (I think) watched a fair bit of the Fox News coverage of various senate hearings etc that are uncovering the origins of the Russia collusion probe. It seems quite clear now that this was based on an utterly false dossier paid for by the Democratic Party! It also seems that Comey picked Mueller to investigate all this, knowing that he was fairly senile (he performed extremely badly in a recent Congressional hearing), and would have to pass the real work on to others who had been selected to try to distort the truth. You never hear this on the BBC, nor on most of the other channels in the US, but there seems little doubt that it is true. Now think of the scale of the hypocrisy and cynicism inside the DNC, who clearly know about all this, and could challenge it if it isn't true, but prefer to ignore it and continue 'investigating' with a view to impeachment. To me, at least, this behaviour is a massive betrayal by the Democratic Party - a party that used to be so high-minded - it is gobsmacking to see all this unfold.

I went on demonstrations against the second Iraq war. I certainly do not feel that my politics have changed since then - I am extremely anti-war, but that there is an enormous effort to distort the truth.

Think further of the cynicism of calling Trump a 'racist' because he doesn't want unlimited immigration with no checks, when every single previous president, including Obama has supported controls on immigration!

Going out slightly on a limb, it seems that Epstein was a key part in the so called swamp that Trump used to discuss. The list of famous people who went to Epstein's infamous island is frightening. Trump seems to have facilitated Epstein's prosecution after many years in which he seemed imune from prosecution, and I think the real reason h is hated is that he has exposed a huge sea of paedophilia and blackmail that was used to manipulate top politicians.

Even if you continue to disagree with us, please recognise that we have good reasons to say what we do!

OK, can I please ask everyone to move this debate to one of the Trump threads.

David
David, why do you keep saying that you “have good reason to say what we do”? and that I ought to “realise that Jim, Eric and I don't support Trump out of perversity, or out of a secret desire to feel part of the mega-rich crowd.”

It seems to me that you appear to be potentially offended because I think a certain way about your support of Trump. Then you go on at great length to once again defend your own position, a lot of what you write in your defence is stuff I agree with! It’s as if you feel guilty about the position you take. It’s like you’re pleading with me “I’m not nuts. I’m not. This is why I’m not. Why can’t you understand?”

With the whole democrat thing, I’m on your side of the argument! Imo Russiagate was a total crock. If there was really evidence of Russian collusion, then surely two years of throwing everything that the powerful US has to look at it should have produced more than it has? MSNBC & CNN have gone berserk in their rabid need to find something - anything!!! That Trump is dirty, that he had done dirty business with the Russian mafia types, I can believe. But big time collusion to change the course of a Presidential election would surely have been found by now. If such evidence has been found, who has the power to keep it from being known by the democratic politicians so desperate to find anything? Anything is possible, but I find this highly improbable.

If anything they should be looking at Israel, not Russia. Perhaps that is why anything they do have is being held back? To open that particular sluice gate would permit all sorts of consequences that both (all?) sides of politics don’t wish to see?

The posts which appeared to cause all the fuss were these two, firstly by Jim and a response by me:

Jim_Smith said:
To me it seems to be the ultimate in hypocrisy to use psychological tricks to take money from people while claiming to be interested in the well-being of the public. When you do that it is because you are interested in your own well-being. I understand others may have different opinions, but that is my opinion.
I find this hilarious coming from a Trump supporter. I would ask “are you serious” but I already know that you are. If you want to move this, fair enough, but please don’t delete it.

I shouldn’t have to explain my response, but it appears that I must.

In my opinion, for Jim or anyone else to talk about ‘the ultimate in hypocrisy” about people conning others because of their “own well-being” just perfectly sums up ‘The Donald’. He is a liar and a cheat. He is a narcissist. His own wife detests him, she shows it frequently on camera! If she doesn’t, then I don’t know much about women. (Probably not my finest argument, it must be said :)) Much of this is self evident as Michael has without any doubt proven. He frequently contradicts his own tweets! Unless you’re saying that these are being manipulated somehow, I have seen it with my own eyes!

It is, imo, simply blind bias to support such an individual while at the same time posting about “the ultimate in hypocrisy”.

If anyone is offended by that, I can’t change it. It’s my honest opinion, just as I believe it’s their honest opinion to say what they do.

Is Trump anti-war, as you and I are? Well, he employed John friggin Bolton, the Zionist war monger supreme, as his Secretary of State. How on earth does that point towards him being anti-war?

but of course Fox News seems to be fairly honest,
This is delusional thinking, once again, imo. It’s like saying the cigarette manufacturers are honest and we should listen to their PR firms for evidence that smoking is harmless.

A quick search revealed the following:

So, short answer: Fox Corp. owns Fox News under direction of Rupert Murdoch’s son, CEO Lachlan Murdoch

Maybe you think their portrayal of Islam is ‘fairly honest’? If so, I strongly disagree, much as I know how unpopular my thoughts on this topic appear to be with many on the forum.


Think further of the cynicism of calling Trump a 'racist' because he doesn't want unlimited immigration with no checks,
Yeah but that’s not the only reason he’s called a racist, is it?


So, for all your indignation, you too must please recognise that we have good reasons to say what we do!”
 
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#15
David, why do you keep saying that you “have good reason to say what we do”? and that I ought to “realise that Jim, Eric and I don't support Trump out of perversity, or out of a secret desire to feel part of the mega-rich crowd.”

It seems to me that you appear to be potentially offended because I think a certain way about your support of Trump. Then you go on at great length to once again defend your own position, a lot of what you write in your defence is stuff I agree with! It’s as if you feel guilty about the position you take. It’s like you’re pleading with me “I’m not nuts. I’m not. This is why I’m not. Why can’t you understand?”

With the whole democrat thing, I’m on your side of the argument! Imo Russiagate was a total crock. If there was really evidence of Russian collusion, then surely two years of throwing everything that the powerful US has to look at it should have produced more than it has? MSNBC & CNN have gone berserk in their rabid need to find something - anything!!! That Trump is dirty, that he had done dirty business with the Russian mafia types, I can believe. But big time collusion to change the course of a Presidential election would surely have been found by now. If such evidence has been found, who has the power to keep it from being known by the democratic politicians so desperate to find anything? Anything is possible, but I find this highly improbable.
Right - and you seem to see the scale of the problem - you have a Democratic party that was willing to hobble a President with all that shit! I don't know how many of them knew the whole story, but those that did want removing from the party and those that didn't should apologise profusely to the President, IMHO. Possible you agree?
If anything they should be looking at Israel, not Russia. Perhaps that is why anything they do have is being held back? To open that particular sluice gate would permit all sorts of consequences that both (all?) sides of politics don’t wish to see?
And of course Epstein is a Jew.......
The posts which appeared to cause all the fuss were these two, firstly by Jim and a response by me:

Jim_Smith said:
To me it seems to be the ultimate in hypocrisy to use psychological tricks to take money from people while claiming to be interested in the well-being of the public. When you do that it is because you are interested in your own well-being. I understand others may have different opinions, but that is my opinion.
I find this hilarious coming from a Trump supporter. I would ask “are you serious” but I already know that you are. If you want to move this, fair enough, but please don’t delete it.

I shouldn’t have to explain my response, but it appears that I must.

In my opinion, for Jim or anyone else to talk about ‘the ultimate in hypocrisy” about people conning others because of their “own well-being” just perfectly sums up ‘The Donald’. He is a liar and a cheat. He is a narcissist. His own wife detests him, she shows it frequently on camera! If she doesn’t, then I don’t know much about women. (Probably not my finest argument, it must be said :)) Much of this is self evident as Michael has without any doubt proven. He frequently contradicts his own tweets! Unless you’re saying that these are being manipulated somehow, I have seen it with my own eyes!
My problem is that given that so much fake news was generated out of the Russia dossier, I don't know what else to believe regarding other anti-Trump propaganda. Yes, he seems to have some rather dubious personality traits, but beyond that, I honestly don't know.

If 'they' could fake up that much evidence and take control of part of the law making process of the US, what they hell else have they taken over?

I also have the problem that if Trump went you would probably get war with Iran, and maybe Syria - I suspect the VP would be far more of a push-over than Trump, and the loonys would take over.
Is Trump anti-war, as you and I are? Well, he employed John friggin Bolton, the Zionist war monger supreme, as his Secretary of State. How on earth does that point towards him being anti-war?
Only in this sense. Trump has had to battle against the pro-war crowd in the Republican party, at the same time as battling the Dems' fake dossier. Getting Bolton inside the tent, means, as they say, that Bolton is pissing out of the tent, rather than in. I am sure that Bolton is furious that the US isn't blasting Iran with all it has got, but he can't say anything without losing his job, so he keeps quiet and lets Trump run the show - with no loss of life so far.

I'll take a look at your videos later, but in the meantime let's let some peace break out in this forum. On the big picture, I think we are all batting on the same side.

David
 
#16
The posts which appeared to cause all the fuss were these two, firstly by Jim and a response by me:

Jim_Smith said:
To me it seems to be the ultimate in hypocrisy to use psychological tricks to take money from people while claiming to be interested in the well-being of the public. When you do that it is because you are interested in your own well-being. I understand others may have different opinions, but that is my opinion.
I find this hilarious coming from a Trump supporter. I would ask “are you serious” but I already know that you are. If you want to move this, fair enough, but please don’t delete it.
It's also very ironic coming in general from a conservative on this forum (and this might apply to conservatives more generally, but I will limit my claim to that which I've observed here). The hypocrisy from conservatives in this forum is rife. Here are four categories that I've observed. Note that individual conservatives on this forum might not fall prey to all four, but each one has been evidenced by at least one out of all of the conservatives on this forum. Note also that I've pointed out all of these hypocrisies already, some very recently, but I figure it's useful to collect them into a single post. I present each of them in the form of an (implied) principle followed by the hypocritical exception.

Principle one: Aggression and conquest are just part of life, and we ought to simply accept their consequences and move on... but when anybody aggresses against the American way of life, even if only to criticise it for the harms it has committed, then this is not acceptable: it is an outrage!

Principle two: People should not present themselves as victims, especially not when the aim is to use sympathy for manipulative purposes... but look at how badly victimised by the media Trump and his supporters are!

Principle three: We should not demonise our political opponents, instead trying to understand them... but look at how appalling those Democrats are, and look at all of these people who are deserting that terrible rabble!

Principle four: We should not assert our moral superiority... but look at how immoral advocates of action against climate change are, knowing that the policies for which they advocate will lead to higher energy prices which will kill the poor and elderly during times when the poor and elderly cannot afford to heat or cool their homes adequately against temperature extremes!
 
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Principle two: People should not present themselves as victims, especially not when the aim is to use sympathy for manipulative purposes... but look at how badly victimised by the media Trump and his supporters are!
I must confess to being ‘a conservative thinker’ by this definition, or at least part of it, not because I agree about Trump’s victimisation but I really can’t stand victims that aren’t really victims, but are in fact predators. So I am with you too.

Climate change is also an area I think we disagree on, at least the CO2 man made bit. I’m not convinced either way. I just don’t know.

Just clarifying my own position, not trying to undermine yours.
 
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Just clarifying my own position, not trying to undermine yours.
That's fine, but the point isn't whether or not you or I agree with any of those principles (edit: or exceptions), rather that certain people on the forum profess (even if only implicitly) to follow them, only to make self-serving exceptions.
 
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Principle one: Aggression and conquest are just part of life, and we ought to simply accept their consequences and move on... but when anybody aggresses against the American way of life, even if only to criticise it for the harms it has committed, then this is not acceptable: it is an outrage!
As Bill Clinton might have said, doesn't that depend on the definition of 'are'. I.e. was Eric asserting that statement as an unfortunate fact of life, or as a principle to live by?
Principle two: People should not present themselves as victims, especially not when the aim is to use sympathy for manipulative purposes... but look at how badly victimised by the media Trump and his supporters are!
Most people get on with life despite a range of problems and/or disabilities. However, anyone who is picked on excessively is deserving of sympathy unless all the picking is justified. In the case of Trump, we know already that none of the Russia dossier was true, and that this was created by the DNC, and we also know that he receved considerably aggression from the extreme war enthusiasts, so I'd certainly say Trump deserves sympathy, or perhaps admiration since he has weathered all the aggression on multiple fronts, remarkably well.
Principle three: We should not demonise our political opponents, instead trying to understand them... but look at how appalling those Democrats are, and look at all of these people who are deserting that terrible rabble!
Well now that the Russia dossier has gone, I'd like to know why exactly you feel we should demonise Trump.
Principle four: We should not assert our moral superiority... but look at how immoral advocates of action against climate change are, knowing that the policies for which they advocate will lead to higher energy prices which will kill the poor and elderly during times when the poor and elderly cannot afford to heat or cool their homes adequately against temperature extremes!
I have rum a PM for some time in which I describe some of the strongest evidence against the idea of Climate Change - indeed you are already able to contribute to that discussion. Anyone with an interest in this subject can say so and join. Reading it is sobering, not least because very few people have put up much of a case at all. For anyone joining, all I ask is that they actually read the whole thread, before commenting further. I am certainly not a climate scientist (thank goodness), but most of the evidence is remarkably easy to understand.

Note that if dangerous CC were indeed to be a reality, it would still be appropriate to stop all use of private jets, and maybe all use of flying at all, before the extremely poor were put under yet more strain.

I guess in Australia, it is possible to forget just what a cold winter is like!

David
 
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Hi Jim

Trump has some passions about there USA ...
What did Trump do that merits impeachment, and what is the evidence?

What does "white supremacist shit" have to do with Trump's immigration policy?

Can you say what actions Trump has taken that show he is Putin's puppet? Because there are a number of things he's done that seem to contradict that view.

Trump:
  • Approved sale of weapons to Ukraine (which Obama would not do).
  • Trump is exporting natural gas to Poland to reduce Russian influence in Europe.
  • Trump approved oil pipelines in the US that will supply export facilities. (Obama would not approve them. US exports of oil hurts Russia because Russia also export oil.)
  • Massacred Russian mercenaries in Syria
  • Trump authorized a cruise missile attack on Syria, an ally of Russia
  • US shot down a Syrian military jet.

I like most of what Trump is doing as President. Many of these are things a Democrat would not do and some another Republican would not do. All those things you say make him unfit may not actually be relevant to performance as President, or if they are relevant, maybe they are not true.

Trump:
  • Lowered business taxes (helps poor US citizens by stimulating economic growth: jobs, wages, working conditions all improve)
  • Reducing government regulation (encourages economic growth)
  • Trying to stop illegal immigration (helps poor US citizens by reducing competition for jobs etc)
  • Forced Mexico to police their border.
  • Renegotiated the trade agreement with Canada and Mexico - helps the poor citizens by keeping jobs in the US
  • Trying to stop unfair trade practices and intellectual property theft by China
  • Wiped out ISIS
  • Decertified the "Iran Deal"
  • Banned travel from terrorist producing countries.
  • Moved the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem - Trump makes US policy based on domestic considerations, rather than kow-towing to world opinion.
  • Terminated TPP
  • Withdrew the US from the Paris climate accord.
  • Approved new oil pipelines in the US (which Obama would not do)
  • Forced NATO allies to contribute more to the alliance.
  • Appointing judges who believe the law should be interpreted according to the intent when it was passed rather than according to their personal preferences.
  • Tariffs on foreign steel and aluminium to protect domestic industries vital to US national security.
  • Reversed restrictions on coal powered electricity production helping to keep electricity prices low - high energy costs hurt the poor the most.
  • Veterans Administration: - incompetent hospital employees can be fired.
  • Criticizes the news media for false reporting.
  • Refuses to submit to political correctness. (Political correctness is used to censor free speech.)
 
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