Trump Consciousness

Please, please let's all try to return this thread to a reasonably serious discussion about President Trump - trying our very best not to score points off others who post here.

I have removed the new 'Cyber bullies' thread, and I want the discussion to return to normal. I think those of us who support the President, can see endless flaws in those opposed to him - including, I suppose people who post against him here - but I suppose the people who post against Trump here, feel the opposite way.

President Trump is a very polarising figure - you either like him or hate him - but there is no point in becoming personal when replying to those with an opposite point of view.

David
thx David... I've never been on this thread but came over here because you drew my attention to it. I'm so way-not-interested in this discussion that I feel uncomfortable saying much, but I've tried to follow the guideline of keeping it about data / evidence / research / links (y'all have given me a PhD education in links :)) rather than about people... especially with "people who believe weird things" (i.e. everyone we don't agree with) :)

I don't know if this is any help, but I appreciate David wearing the umpires uniform on this one :)
 
Um, where do we go to read about this remit?
Umm, you could start with the byline in the forum's header: "intelligent discussions on science and spirituality". Then, if you were feeling particularly adventurous, you could listen to Alex introduce any given podcast, explaining that Skeptiko is a place to "explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics".

If you continue to challenge other people's right to post what they like here, I am going to act - final warning.
Why, David, it seems that you are challenging my right to post what I like here. In that case, I might have to act. ;-)
 
Umm, you could start with the byline in the forum's header: "intelligent discussions on science and spirituality". Then, if you were feeling particularly adventurous, you could listen to Alex introduce any given podcast, explaining that Skeptiko is a place to "explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics".
Actually I have always seen this discussion as being part of the bigger debate. When we think of subjects like psychic healing, life after death, etc. we come up again and again with a standard message from much of the media that is totally materialist. The puzzle is why the standard message is so uniform - so controlled. Well I have come to think the same about President Trump. The standard message from the media is so uniformly hateful towards him, and yet when you poke a bit deeper, you start to wonder - just as you do about the standard message about materialism. The very nature of the strident opposition to non-materialism and to Trump can tell you something interesting.

As I have discussed before, one of the nudges that sent me on my way away from materialism, came when I watched a TV program about ψ, in which a sceptical scientist got the last say (as they usually do). He said that there was no scientific evidence for telepathy, and I already knew of peer reviewed papers claiming to show such evidence. It was a shock to realise that the scientist was being economical with the truth. Much more recently I had various similar experiences with the BBC as Donald Trump began his rise to become President.

The factual omissions were the most striking. It was almost impossible to find out from listening to the BBC, what Donald Trump wanted to do if he was elected. It was then that I discovered Fox News, and that Trump's agenda sounded very positive.

Strangely, if the 'Left' media were a good deal less strident, they would be more believable, just as a scientist who recognised the evidence suggesting non-metialism, but struggled with that, would be more believable than the scientist who simply told a lie.

David
 
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Actually I have always seen this discussion as being part of the bigger debate. When we think of subjects like psychic healing, life after death, etc. we come up again and again with a standard message from much of the media that is totally materialist. The puzzle is why the standard message is so uniform - so controlled. Well I have come to think the same about President Trump. The standard message from the media is so uniformly hateful towards him, and yet when you poke a bit deeper, you start to wonder - just as you do about the standard message about materialism. The very nature of the strident opposition to non-materialism and to Trump can tell you something interesting.

As I have discussed before, one of the nudges that sent me on my way away from materialism, came when I watched a TV program about ψ, in which a sceptical scientist got the last say (as they usually do). He said that there was no scientific evidence for telepathy, and I already knew of peer reviewed papers claiming to show such evidence. It was a shock to realise that the scientist was being economical with the truth. Much more recently I had various similar experiences with the BBC as Donald Trump began his rise to become President.

The factual omissions were the most striking. It was almost impossible to find out from listening to the BBC, what Donald Trump wanted to do if he was elected. It was then that I discovered Fox News, and that Trump's agenda sounded very positive.

Strangely, if the 'Left' media were a good deal less strident, they would be more believable, just as a scientist who recognised the evidence suggesting non-metialism, but struggled with that, would be more believable than the scientist who simply told a lie.

David
Bollocks! David this has no chance of being a bigger debate when pro Tumpers don't debate and don't consider contrary evidence.

The very nature of the strident opposition to non-materialism and to Trump can tell you something interesting.

No! You can't make these equivalent propositions. This is not even an apples v oranges error. The strident opposition to non-materialism is a deliberate denial of evidence - as is the persistent support of Trump. Both are in the minority. In both cases the facts are ignored and evidence to support the demolition of these false arguments is not only ignored, it is refused.

This is precisely why this thread has to be shut down. It serves no good purpose and it is not capable of generating any worthwhile discourse. It is not in the spirit of Skeptiko. I hope Alex will put a stop to it.
 
No! You can't make these equivalent propositions. This is not even an apples v oranges error. The strident opposition to non-materialism is a deliberate denial of evidence - as is the persistent support of Trump. Both are in the minority. In both cases the facts are ignored and evidence to support the demolition of these false arguments is not only ignored, it is refused.
Well for me, this is all tightly woven in with the near suppression of the truth regarding Syrian gas attacks. This is beginning to come out in various places now, but this doesn't do justice to the horror of what is being exposed. There was a deliberate and repeated effort to drag the US into a major confrontation in Syria - probably involving Russia. This was presumably orchestrated from within the US administration somewhere.

Here is an additional voice in the press.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...ting-mole-heart-Great-Poison-Gas-Scandal.html

I mean, let's start there - does anyone deny my bolded assertion? If not, let's try to analyse what that means.

David
 
Actually I have always seen this discussion as being part of the bigger debate. When we think of subjects like psychic healing, life after death, etc. we come up again and again with a standard message from much of the media that is totally materialist.
I agree. The essence of skeptiko, in my opinion, is epistemology, how we know what we know, why we believe what we believe. That problem extends into every subject.
 
This is precisely why this thread has to be shut down. It serves no good purpose and it is not capable of generating any worthwhile discourse. It is not in the spirit of Skeptiko. I hope Alex will put a stop to it.
hi Mike since you sent me a private message I'll butt in here. I've only read a few the post but it seems to me everyone is trying to have an "inquiry to perpetuate doubt" kind of debate. so even though I think the "Trump The Outsider Agent of Change" ship sailed a long time ago, I don't see any reason to intervene with what you guys have going on in this thread.
 
ok, but you and David are really stretching it here. this is 90% level one nonsense with 0% deep spirituality.
It is not the subject that is significant. It is the controversy and how people deal with it - that is the spiritual aspect, the psychology of it. Psychology is the study of mind. Consciousness is non-physical. Psychology is spiritual. As I said it applies to every field. You can study it where ever you want.

And supposing it isn't spiritual, that does not mean it is not important.

Why do you think it is nonsense? Isn't the future of the USA important? Isn't the biggest scandal in the history of the USA important? Don't you care whether the country you live in, the most powerful country in the world, is run by laws that are applied equally to everyone no matter how high an office they hold, or by the whim of a few oligarchs?
 
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https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...f-move-forward-on-impeachment-they-are-toast/

Here are four reasons the Democrats’ Schiff Sham impeachment may be the end of the Democrat Party –​
1. The first reason is simple. The Democrats have no case. President Trump did nothing wrong. Their efforts to tie him to a crime didn’t work. President Trump is innocent and they know it.​
...​
2. The Democrats have no idea what will be uncovered or what will be presented in a Senate hearing and they have no control over the Republicans who are in charge of the Senate. The Senate Hearings are a huge wild card.​
...​
In Summary​
The House Democrats may impeach Trump but they might not as well.​
The risk if all goes poorly for the Democrats is atomic. If the President is wrongfully impeached, and criminal actions by Schiff, the whistleblowers, the Bidens, Kerry and Obama are uncovered in Senate hearings, and the FISA report is totally damaging, and Durham starts arresting Democrats and the Deep State for their criminal acts, Americans will be outraged. This scenario could realistically be the end of the Democrat Party – something that some believe is long overdue.​
 

Bart V

straw materialist
Member
The factual omissions were the most striking. It was almost impossible to find out from listening to the BBC, what Donald Trump wanted to do if he was elected. It was then that I discovered Fox News, and that Trump's agenda sounded very positive.

David
And Fox is known for never omitting facts.
 
Maybe it’s ‘how we think we know what we know’?
In the context, I don't think there is a real distinction.

I think Jim is correct to point out that a lot of this discussion boils down to a discussion about how we sort out truth from half-truth from lies.


ok, but you and David are really stretching it here. this is 90% level one nonsense with 0% deep spirituality.
I definitely get the sense that Donald Trump has messed up a lot of the plans of the Neo Cons. I also think he wants to mess up a lot more of those plans. The Neo Cons have lead to immense suffering in Syria, Libya, Iraq,Ukraine, and elsewhere. Whether there is a spiritual component to this, I'm not sure, but I mean we often talk about a dark side to spirituality, and if there is one, then the dark spirits will cluster like flies around the Department for Defense, and parts of the State Department.

David
 
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