Trump Consciousness

OK - so you think accidentally mixing up his father and his grandfather in a side remark of a serious discussion is a substantive lie. Remember that a lie isn't supposed to be a mistake, it has to be intentional to achieve some purpose.

David
How was I supposed to know that his grandfather was German? Ok, fair enough, it might have been just a mix up in this case. However, there’s tons of evidence of him lying. Have you watched the documentary I posted? No, I didn’t think so.
 
Yeah, because drag queen story hour for children is lofty and wholesome, as are felons voting from prison, open borders and injunctions against deporting illegal aliens who commit felonies including rape and narcotics smuggling and sales, people living on the heroin needle strewn streets of California - and crapping on them too...not a race to the bottom, nah. It's social justice!

The variable that is new is that all of the millenials brainwashed into socialism by the public school system and hollywood and coming of age - and we have reached some critical mass of american hating immigrants from Islamo land and banana republics who have also been brainwashed by liberals into believing that there is no need to work hard and assimilate. Rather, it is acceptable to destroy the country and make it resemble whatever shithole they came from.

You realize that all of that and much more that is unsavory and would have been recognized as such by 98% of Americans just 4 or 5 years ago is now central to the democrat platform......but..but...orange man bad! Yeah. Thanks for playing. Trump will win again hugely in 2020 because almost no one is buying your fellow travelers' BS. You all are insane and the more you talk the more you expose yourselves.
Eric,

I'm happy to have a meaningful and respectful conversation with you if you are interested. I'm not interested in a flame war between tribes when neither of us really knows the other beyond small blocks of written words on this forum. I think you are interesting and I enjoy reading your posts.

I'm likely more closely aligned with you on many of the items you raised, hyperbole and all. We might not be 100% aligned, but we're closer to 100 than we are zero.

All I've repeatedly been interested in discussing in this thread is the tone and style of political discourse these days. If you think that is a minor or even meaningless issue, you're welcome to not participate on this subtopic, if you will. I don't see a direct relationship to being a rude/boorish with being an effective leader; actually I find it quite the contrary and while potentially effective for the short term, very ineffective over the mid/long term. Trump is a really big voice in the "you're either with me or against me" tribal mentality today. I find that concerning as while political battles have always been heated and even sometimes vicious, we've generally come together as a nation and moved forward.

And, I have no problem saying this, I don't like the man. He seems extremely petty and small considering how prone he is to take offense at the smallest things. Again, has nothing to do with his politics, much of which I support.
 
How was I supposed to know that his grandfather was German? Ok, fair enough, it might have been just a mix up in this case. However, there’s tons of evidence of him lying. Have you watched the documentary I posted? No, I didn’t think so.
In 1885, Donald Trump's grandfather, Friedrich Trump, emigrated from Kallstadt, Palatinate (then part of the Kingdom of Bavaria), to the United States at age 16. He anglicized his name to Frederick in 1892 when he became a U.S. citizen.[40] During the Klondike Gold Rush, he amassed a fortune by opening a restaurant and hotel in Bennett and later Whitehorse, serving gold seekers on their way to the region; one biographer wrote that the business included a brothel, a portrayal Donald Trump has said was "totally false".[45] After his death, his fortune was passed on to his wife and son. Frederick Trump was a second cousin of Henry J. Heinz, founder of H. J. Heinz Company, whose father also came from Kallstadt.
The point is, the compiler of that list didn't want to tell you that - I only knew it because I read Donald Trump Junior's book.

Besides, how the hell was he supposed to benefit from that lie/mistake?

My contention is that most of that list consists of inconsequential mistakes, but neither you nor I are going to plough through them.

If the President has a serious character flaw of lying with intent, wouldn't you have expected that Guardian journalist to have weeded out irrelevancies like this?

The whole case against DT seems to be like this, they say he is Racist, but why? I mean he is actually attracting more African American support for what he has done!

I know you mean well, but I think that like zillions of other people, you are being completely conned.

David
 
Eric,

I'm happy to have a meaningful and respectful conversation with you if you are interested. I'm not interested in a flame war between tribes when neither of us really knows the other beyond small blocks of written words on this forum. I think you are interesting and I enjoy reading your posts.

I'm likely more closely aligned with you on many of the items you raised, hyperbole and all. We might not be 100% aligned, but we're closer to 100 than we are zero.

All I've repeatedly been interested in discussing in this thread is the tone and style of political discourse these days. If you think that is a minor or even meaningless issue, you're welcome to not participate on this subtopic, if you will. I don't see a direct relationship to being a rude/boorish with being an effective leader; actually I find it quite the contrary and while potentially effective for the short term, very ineffective over the mid/long term. Trump is a really big voice in the "you're either with me or against me" tribal mentality today. I find that concerning as while political battles have always been heated and even sometimes vicious, we've generally come together as a nation and moved forward.

And, I have no problem saying this, I don't like the man. He seems extremely petty and small considering how prone he is to take offense at the smallest things. Again, has nothing to do with his politics, much of which I support.
I hear what you're saying and appreciate it. I almost didn't vote for trump because of his boorish style. OTOH, I like his policies, a lot.

One of my issues is people putting style above substance. While the calm quiet well studied politician screws us over and proposes terrible things like subjecting our children to perverts (and calls us bigot Nazis if we object), more wars, giving the economy to China and other countries, flooding us with unvetted poor immigrants and demand we pay for everything for them, Trump proposes and enacts policies that are helping everyone (with ample evidence to prove it - e.g. the economy).

IMO, one of the reasons for all of the tribalism is that there really are different tribes that will never get along. We are basically in a cold civil war at this point. There just isn't any shooting, yet. Now, you could argue that Trump should try to bring us together and end the civil war, but I'm not sure that is reasonable. What would that look like? As I see it, unless Trump opens the borders, gives free everything to everyone that crosses, apologizes for being white, embraces drag queen story hour, etc etc etc, the left isn't going to accept an olive branch. There are just fundamental differences in how each camp views the world, evaluates goodness and what they see as the path forward. I mean we have many lefties (and even regular college students) saying the USA is inherently evil and should be destroyed and replaced with socialism with race/skin color deciding who's opinions and policies count (whites become second class class citizens, btw). I am not making this up. They are actually saying that. The Dem candidates are saying these things. How does one reconcile with such people? I won't. I want my President to be clear that he's not going to cave into any of that either.

Then there's the fact that he's been under attack from the deep state since before he took office. How should he respond to that? Like the Dalai Lama?

Then, with Trump, there's the whole New York City swagger. I do not like NYC because, IMO, people there are all a bunch of vaguely hostile loud mouths. I don't think that Trump's style is unique for NYC. IMO, people from other parts of the country or other countries don't get or like the NYC style.
 
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I know you mean well, but I think that like zillions of other people, you are being completely conned.
Well, if you choose to ignore the things I wrote about him being a liar, a bully and a narcissist, I might agree. I don’t think you’re being conned, I think you’re conning yourself.
 
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Bart V

straw materialist
Member
How about selecting one lie from that list - the one you think really amounts to something serious, and then Eric or I can try to debunk it.
You've got the logic wrong here David, if someone could credibly show Trump told one lie, he would be a liar, right?
On the other hand if you want to maintain Trump is not a liar, you should find credible sources to refute every credible claim for a lie.

Don't you see that if you come up with a list of 100 lies, you put your opponent at an unfair disadvantage, because you would require every lie to be debunked or shown to be trivial.
It is Trump who puts you in this position, by insistently lying.
And since that list was compiled (2016), the number of lies has grown up to more than 15000 false or misleading claims, according to the Washington Post.

If you had a real justification for calling him a liar, you would present one example of a lie that was verifiable and substantive.
What do you think is verifiable? It is important to know if we want to discuss this subject.
There is no point in discussing specific examples if you are going to cry conspiracy, or deem every credible source as leftist propaganda.

And what is a non substantive lie?

Isn't it at least possible that you have swallowed the Left propaganda without giving it much critical thought?
That is ironic, coming from someone who claims to only watch FOX for his information.
 

Bart V

straw materialist
Member
OK - so you think accidentally mixing up his father and his grandfather in a side remark of a serious discussion is a substantive lie. Remember that a lie isn't supposed to be a mistake, it has to be intentional to achieve some purpose.

David
We can not look into Trump's head, so whether he lies intentionally is difficult to say. In some cases though it would be even worse if he didn't.
That would mean he lies because he does not know the truth.

For instance if he says he built 100 miles of new wall at the southern border in his SOTU, and only between one and three miles of that is actually new wall.

Is that deliberate? or is that stupidity?, What is worse?

I could easily give you ampel examples of Trump lies, maybe even classify them in different categories.

But before putting any effort in that, i would like to know: Would you, or Eric, actually care if we could show trump a liar?
Would it diminish your support for Trump even a little bit?
 
We can not look into Trump's head, so whether he lies intentionally is difficult to say. In some cases though it would be even worse if he didn't.
That would mean he lies because he does not know the truth.

For instance if he says he built 100 miles of new wall at the southern border in his SOTU, and only between one and three miles of that is actually new wall.

Is that deliberate? or is that stupidity?, What is worse?

I could easily give you ampel examples of Trump lies, maybe even classify them in different categories.

But before putting any effort in that, i would like to know: Would you, or Eric, actually care if we could show trump a liar?
Would it diminish your support for Trump even a little bit?
So childish.

If replaced the broken down old border fence with new wall, then it's new wall.

We also know that the courts stopped the building of the wall until recently. You act as if it's Trump's fault.

Who cares if Trump ever told a lie? What kind of purity test is this? I could show you where every politician out there has lied - and if I knew enough about you, I could show where you have lied a thousand times in the last year....in fact your twisting of semantics about new border wall confirms for me that you are a liar too.

Who cares oh holier than thou one? Do you think you're not obvious to people reading your comments?
 
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And what is a non substantive lie?
Well as people get into their 70's they do make mistakes sometimes!
A substantive lie would be one in which Trump obviously wished to gain from the falsehood.

If you subject a public figure to massive surveillance to try to trip him up, I think it would work with anyone. Do you seriously doubt that Bernie, or AOC, never mind Pelosi, never tell a lie?

Another example, would be if you interrogate someone over aspects of their sex life. I'd imagine many men could be forced into telling a lie in such circumstances, as a former president could attest! Notably the Senate also came to the right conclusion in that case.

David
 

Bart V

straw materialist
Member
Why not select one that you consider the worst.
(see my discussion with Steve)

David
Well what about the example I gave in my previous post?

It is an obvious lie, there is actually only one mile (or so) of new border wall built.
It serves the purpose of him seeming to fulfill a campaign promise, which he doesn't.

He stated this lie in his state of the union, meaning he knowingly, an deliberately, lied to the whole country.

Now can you debunk this without resorting to whataboutisms, conspiracy theories, appeal to leftist propaganda, or moving the goalpost about what is a actually a lie?
 
Well what about the example I gave in my previous post?

It is an obvious lie, there is actually only one mile (or so) of new border wall built.
It serves the purpose of him seeming to fulfill a campaign promise, which he doesn't.

He stated this lie in his state of the union, meaning he knowingly, an deliberately, lied to the whole country.

Now can you debunk this without resorting to whataboutisms, conspiracy theories, appeal to leftist propaganda, or moving the goalpost about what is a actually a lie?
There is not just one mile of new border wall. That is a lie - and you're telling it.

If there used to be a single strand of barbed wire (fact, seen it with my own eyes) and now there is a new barrier that cannot be easily crossed, then he has built new wall. Additionally, right now, 450 miles are under construction. Try not to be a pedantic weeny about this.
 
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We’re talking about Trump. He encourages a “race to the bottom.”
In a world of nations, it is impossible to make a coherent argument against any nation that puts itself first when all nations take advantage of each other's weaknesses. Altruistically, I wish it weren't so, but realistically, it can be no other way. So a race "to the bottom" may end up being the very best thing that could happen to this planet as it exposes everyone!

Just like an alcoholic needs to hit bottom, perhaps the mass human psychosis needs to also.
 
Instead of relying on liberal BS, why don't you go to the US Customs and Border Patrol site or other sources based on them? Like Steve who accuses Trump of being a liar and then admits he couldn't bothered to look up the fact that Trump's grandfather was from Germany. He just whines "How could I know that". It's all right there if you'd stop your hating and propaganda for a few minutes. You're the same.
 

Bart V

straw materialist
Member
Why not select one that you consider the worst.
(see my discussion with Steve)

David
There is not one worst lie, David. The worst part about his lying is that he does it so much.

But if you want to look into his lies, you already have the one where he said he built 100 miles of new wall, and it actually was only one mile, the rest is existing wall.

He started his presidency with another good one, claiming he had the biggest crowd for his inauguration, which was also obviously not true, remember that one?
 
He started his presidency with another good one, claiming he had the biggest crowd for his inauguration, which was also obviously not true, remember that one?
Perhaps a better word to describe this trait of his would be to call him a bullshitter? That fits better. No matter what ‘name’ we choose to describe him, you will never convince me that he’s a good choice. There are no good choices any longer, if there ever were. The same way that Johnson is not a good choice for the U.K. Everyone knew that he was a liar/bullshitter, but he won the vote anyway.
 
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