We share our grief with animals

Pollux

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Grief is an emotion we share with almost every other animal.
These clips show you some of it.

"When it comes to animal feelings, we tend to think of them exactly as we humans are or on the other end of the spectrum as unthinking, unfeeling beasts put here for our enjoyment. Every animal is unique in its own way and thinks a little bit differently, but what is clear is that many animals are able to feel complete emotions. According to an article in Psychology Today:"

“Grief itself is something of a mystery, for there doesn’t seem to be any obvious adaptive value to it in an evolutionary sense. It does not appear to increase an individual’s reproductive success. Whatever its value is, grief is the price of commitment, that wellspring of both happiness and sorrow.”


1. Dolphins.



2. Dogs.


3. Gorillas.


4. Elephants.


5. Geese.


 
6. Cats.


7. Penguins.


8. Chimpanzees.

“Her presence, and loss, was palpable, and resonated throughout the group. The management at Sanaga-Yong opted to let Dorothy’s chimpanzee family witness her burial, so that perhaps they would understand, in their own capacity, that Dorothy would not return. Some chimps displayed aggression while others barked in frustration, but perhaps the most stunning reaction was a recurring, almost tangible silence. If one knows chimpanzees, then one knows that [they] are not [usually] silent creatures.”

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http://higherperspectives.com/animals-mourning/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...111/grief-mourning-and-broken-hearted-animals
 

“Grief itself is something of a mystery, for there doesn’t seem to be any obvious adaptive value to it in an evolutionary sense. It does not appear to increase an individual’s reproductive success. Whatever its value is, grief is the price of commitment, that wellspring of both happiness and sorrow.”


To me, the real mystery is how it is that some people still have such limited thinking. "Adaptive value" "evolutionary sense"? rofl. Really? What year is this - 1940?
 
To me, the real mystery is how it is that some people still have such limited thinking. "Adaptive value" "evolutionary sense"? rofl. Really? What year is this - 1940?
No one believes that our behaviors are the result of nothing but biological evolution. Obviously there are huge social and cultural effects, too. The only people I've ever heard insist that everything must be explained by evolution are proponents when arguing with skeptics.

~~ Paul
 
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No one believes that our behaviors are the result of nothing but biological evolution. Obviously there are huge social and cultural affects, too. The only people I've ever heard insist that everything must be explained by evolution are proponents when arguing with skeptics.

~~ Paul

If our behaviors are not the result of biological evolution then what materialist mechanism explains it?
 
So you are saying that grief is learned behavior? Among all these different species?
Not completely. Remember, I said "No one believes that our behaviors are the result of nothing but biological evolution." There are certainly evolutionary aspects. But a large part of grief could be learned, which is why it is expressed in different ways in different cultures.

For example, the behavior of sitting with another animal when it is dying (or has died) could have the evolutionary advantage of nursing it back to life by protecting it or helping it survive the trauma. This could develop into a more complex social ritual that is learned.

http://www.grieflink.asn.au/TopicPersonDifferent.aspx

~~ Paul
 
Not completely. Remember, I said "No one believes that our behaviors are the result of nothing but biological evolution." There are certainly evolutionary aspects. But a large part of grief could be learned, which is why it is expressed in different ways in different cultures.

For example, the behavior of sitting with another animal when it is dying (or has died) could have the evolutionary advantage of nursing it back to life by protecting it or helping it survive the trauma. This could develop into a more complex social ritual that is learned.

http://www.grieflink.asn.au/TopicPersonDifferent.aspx

~~ Paul

It seems like a massive stretch to me, but it's consistent within your belief system, so OK.
 
I cannot watch all of those, it's too heartbreaking.

Having owned 5 dogs in my lifetime, I can say without a doubt they are more intelligent and more feeling than we stupid humans give them or any other animal credit for.

As for learned grieving...what? Sorry, that's more than a stretch, it's idiotic. But totally expected from someone who thinks all organisms are nothing but complex machines. That's just a sad way of looking at the world IMO.
 
I cannot watch all of those, it's too heartbreaking.

Having owned 5 dogs in my lifetime, I can say without a doubt they are more intelligent and more feeling than we stupid humans give them or any other animal credit for.

As for learned grieving...what? Sorry, that's more than a stretch, it's idiotic. But totally expected from someone who thinks all organisms are nothing but complex machines. That's just a sad way of looking at the world IMO.

We have had many cats over the years and inevitably have had to bury more than a few. It always hurts.
 
The idea that grief is learned behavior or that it has an evolutionary purpose. Grief comes naturally, it's not like learning to play baseball. Caring for the sick isn't the same as grieving for the dead and even animals know this.
I repeat: I didn't say it was completely learned. There are surely innate aspects to grief. On the other hand, you can't possibly believe that all aspects of grief are innate. If that were the case, we would all grieve the same way. Like any complex behavior, it is partly innate and partly learned.

Oh wait, apparently you think grief is neither innate nor learned. Then what the heck is it?

~~ Paul
 
As for learned grieving...what? Sorry, that's more than a stretch, it's idiotic. But totally expected from someone who thinks all organisms are nothing but complex machines. That's just a sad way of looking at the world IMO.
Wouldn't you be sadder if all aspects of grieving were innate and it was just a result of evolution? That would be more machine-like, wouldn't it?

You can't possibly believe that there are no learned aspects to grieving.

~~ Paul
 
I repeat: I didn't say it was completely learned. There are surely innate aspects to grief. On the other hand, you can't possibly believe that all aspects of grief are innate. If that were the case, we would all grieve the same way. Like any complex behavior, it is partly innate and partly learned.

Oh wait, apparently you think grief is neither innate nor learned. Then what the heck is it?

~~ Paul

You seem to be making the assumption that something innate must necessarily be expressed all the same way. It's an interesting belief, but one I don't share.
 
You seem to be making the assumption that something innate must necessarily be expressed all the same way. It's an interesting belief, but one I don't share.
I believe no such thing. However, it's clear that parts of grieving are learned. For example, the trend now in the US is to celebrate a person's passing with happiness and good cheer. That was certainly not the case in my grandparents' day. I suspect we can find all kinds of interesting details that vary with culture.

~~ Paul
 
I believe no such thing. However, it's clear that parts of grieving are learned. For example, the trend now in the US is to celebrate a person's passing with happiness and good cheer. That was certainly not the case in my grandparents' day. I suspect we can find all kinds of interesting details that vary with culture.

~~ Paul

We seem to be referring to different things. I'm talking about the deep, personal heartfelt grief that people spontaneously feel whether they want to or not, not social customs associated with a death.
 
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