What determines where we go should there be an afterlife?

So do you think some folks have an intrinsic essence that varies from another person?

I don't think they have an intrinsic essence that is different. Rather all essences are the same but can choose which way to go to flavour their essence.
 
Yes, otherwise it would merely be our brains and ones environment that could account for differences in personality. And all souls would be indistinguishable.

It may be the case that at our core we share the same essence, but that "personality" or other attributes are merely superficial layers upon this core.
 
So say you are someone who has spent their life developing deep skills in meditation, mindfulness and concentration so that you are able to exist at a level of conscious awareness where the fabric of reality has fallen away. In addition you are able to teach others this same skill and they are able to live in a state of expanded awareness and compassion. But you also have a penchant for young married women and have caused no end of troubles in this particular regard.

How do we define this person's development? How would we place them in the afterlife?

According to what I have read by NDEers and mediums, the ability to meditate (or psychic abilities) would have no bearing on where you went in the afterlife. The penchant might be an indication of an undeveloped soul, depending its cause. Sometimes an advanced soul will take on a role (as a perpetrator or as a victim) for a purpose, for example, to provide a learning opportunity for another person. This would be agreed upon by both before birth. For this reason you cannot judge a person's level of spiritual development by their behavior in life, and it is well not to judge others (or yourself).

Spiritual development is the development of character traits that make us fit for the higher levels in the afterlife. These traits include, love, forgiveness, tolerance, unselfishness, etc. They are learned by experiencing the consequences of our actions. Good actions have good consequences, bad actions have bad consequences. Sometimes the learning does not occur until the afterlife when one has the life review and experiences the consequences of his actions from the perspective the all the people his actions affected. Sometimes reincarnating to receive what you have given out in a previous life is required before learning takes place. There is no vindictive punishment in the afterlife, everybody experiences what they did to other people, good or bad, for the purpose of learning.

People aren't coming back from NDEs and saying everyone has to mediate and get enlightenment to make progress in the afterlife. They come back and tell us that what matters in life is how you treat your loved ones, your coworkers, and strangers.

I find that meditation is a tool that helps calm my mind so that I can live more in accordance with my spiritual values. When my mind is turbulent, my actions are the actions of an upset person. When my mind is calm, my actions are the actions of a calm person. But meditation is not necessary, we learn from the experiences of in our life. That is why we have this life.
 
Last edited:
First of all I do not believe we come into existence at conception or birth

Agreed, neither do I. Reincarnation seems very familiar to me. So presumably you don't think there is hell, or if you do, you don't think Hitler will remain there, assuming he went of course. Hell would be temporary ?

Reports of NDEres suggest there's a "hell" in the sense of unpleasant realm(s), although I don't know if it corresponds to the stereotypical conception of hell. I don't think these afterlife realms are places as such, but rather states of the psyche, and should our intrinsic essence change then so will our minds and hence our environment.
 
According to what I have read by NDEers and mediums, the ability to meditate (or psychic abilities) would have no bearing on where you went in the afterlife.
Do you have an idea of what it means to obtain a level of concentration, mindfulness and understanding so that the fabric of reality falls away? I fail to see how someone who attained this level of consciousness might start at level one in the afterlife.

The penchant might be an indication of an undeveloped soul, depending its cause. Sometimes an advanced soul will take on a role (as a perpetrator or as a victim) for a purpose, for example, to provide a learning opportunity for another person. This would be agreed upon by both before birth. For this reason you cannot judge a person's level of spiritual development by their behavior in life, and it is well not to judge others (or yourself).

Spiritual development is the development of character traits that make us fit for the higher levels in the afterlife. These traits include, love, forgiveness unselfishness, tolerance, etc.

Although the above ideas have become very popular today, they seem to me to be a part of a conceptualized afterlife mythology not much different than the idea that Vikings thought they might go to Valhalla.
 
So do you think some folks have an intrinsic essence that varies from another person?

Some sources of information about the afterlife say that one of the consequences of incarnating in the physical plane it helps us to "individuate". Each person has their own unique set of experiences and that makes them different from everyone else.
 
Do you have an idea of what it means to obtain a level of concentration, mindfulness and understanding so that the fabric of reality falls away?

Yes. Been there done that. (http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/mystical_experiences#mystical_kensho) Nothing special. Knowing the law doesn't make you an honest lawyer.

I fail to see how someone who attained this level of consciousness might start at level one in the afterlife.

If you did that meditation as an escape because it was safer to sit in a zendo than interact with people, you might not learn anything from your life. You might be so attached to your quest for non-attachment (or what ever you are meditating for) that you continue to meditate in the afterlife and continue to hide behind it.

Although the above ideas have become very popular today, they seem to me to be a part of a conceptualized afterlife mythology not much different than the idea that Vikings thought they might go to Valhalla.

At least I explained my sources: what I have read by people who have had NDEs and what mediums have written on behalf of spirits, and I listed my sources above. These ideas are not just popular today, they were expressed over 100 years ago during the heyday of the Spiritualist movement. I find it compelling that much of the same information is coming today from NDErs many of whom had no interest in spirituality before their NDEs. But you should believe what you think is right. Every scientific controversy shows that the best explanation of the evidence is a matter of opinion. I can live with that.
 
Last edited:
Reports of NDEres suggest there's a "hell" in the sense of unpleasant realm(s), although I don't know if it corresponds to the stereotypical conception of hell. I don't think these afterlife realms are places as such, but rather states of the psyche, and should our intrinsic essence change then so will our minds and hence our environment.

I've spoken to someone who claimed to have had a taste of Hell, darkness, despair, foul smells etc during a cardiac arrest. He seemed very sincere.
The well known case of the blind lady Vicki Noratuk, for instance ...she claimed to have "gone past hell" ,, as did the rather unassuming middle class housewife, Viola Horton.

To say they are not geographical "places" is a bit optimistic IMHO. It may be that the afterlife is very much sign posted.
 
Yes. Been there done that. (http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/mystical_experiences#mystical_kensho) Nothing special. Knowing the law doesn't make you an honest lawyer.



If you did that meditation as an escape because it was safer to sit in a zendo than interact with people, you might not learn anything from your life.



At least I explained my sources: what I have read by people who have had NDEs and what mediums have written on behalf of spirits, and I listed my sources above. But you should believe what you think is right. Every scientific controversy shows that the most likely interpretation of the evidence is a matter of opinion. I can live with that.

From The Last Frontier by Assante:

Modern American notions of the afterlife seem to be moving in the direction of a kinder, more permissive world to come. Yet more and more they reflect the cultural values of education and family. And in some recent works, the authors' visions of the afterlife suspiciously resemble group therapy. What seems to us to be common denominators of social good would have been regarded as insipid fare for our ancestors and severely limited to mystics who perceive the rapturous capabilities of life outside the body. To a Viking such an afterlife would be a hell of the most unspeakable dishonor. The celestial realms of biblical and early Christian descriptions with their palaces, thrones and gates, their fixed ranks of angels, would spell insufferable imprisonment to the free-roaming nature loving peoples of precolonial America. When I read matter-of-fact statement in one book about the afterlife, that there is a giant organ in heaven from which Liszt is played, my first thought was, how could that possibly interest a Watusi?
What of the afterlife for entities that haven't reincarnated on Earth or may not be human or may not have even been physical. It is great to develop a mythology of the afterlife, but anyone who does so should remain aware that that entire edifice may be only a speck in the greater scheme of things. Lots more evidence points to the plastic nature of nonphysical reality (including our daily forays into dreams) than all the books from the 20th century that describe schools of learning or hierarchical levels of spiritual living. I'm not saying that those places may not exist, but they may only be one idea that exists among many.

Of course it is important to live a good life and to learn to love. But in my opinion, if you are really interested in the afterlife, then you should practice exercising intention and imagination in the nonphysical realm now. That means developing awareness in dreams and the out of body state.
 
I've spoken to someone who claimed to have had a taste of Hell, darkness, despair, foul smells etc during a cardiac arrest. He seemed very sincere.
The well known case of the blind lady Vicki Noratuk, for instance ...she claimed to have "gone past hell" ,, as did the rather unassuming middle class housewife, Viola Horton.

To say they are not geographical "places" is a bit optimistic IMHO. It may be that the afterlife is very much sign posted.

Why is it optimistic? I'm trying to make sense of what the afterlife realm might be like. Are you saying hell and heaven are places in the sense they are not at all creations of mind or minds? If so do you have any arguments, whether philosophical and/or reports of NDEers, discarnate entities communicating through mediums, OBErs etc?

Are you saying that Hell is a "place" (mind-independent?) and thereby more difficult to leave?
 
Why is it optimistic? I'm trying to make sense of what the afterlife realm might be like. Are you saying hell and heaven are places in the sense they are not at all creations of mind or minds? If so do you have any arguments, whether philosophical and/or reports of NDEers, discarnate entities communicating through mediums, OBErs etc?

Are you saying that Hell is a "place" (mind-independent?) and thereby more difficult to leave?

I am saying that hell may well be a place..the same as some nasty place on earth. It may be constructed out of a completely unknown substance, just as our psyche or soul is. I'm just theorising because I don't know.
Added. The greatest prophet, a spiritual master or the son of man spoke about it, didn't he ?
 
It may be the case that at our core we share the same essence, but that "personality" or other attributes are merely superficial layers upon this core.

Interestingly perhaps, apparently the word 'personality' comes from the Latin word persona, one meaning of which is 'mask'.
 
Personally, I don't read any NDE's from NDERF. To me it's just not feasible to rule out people making up stories, it's so easy to do. Many of them might be genuine but I don't want to be taken for a fool by someone's bogus afterlife tale.
I've read quite a few of them. They seem to fall into four categories:
  • probably genuine
  • deliberately false as a tool of religious propaganda
  • deliberately false as a trolling attempt
  • unknown - possibly genuine, possibly creative writing
From what I've seen, many are fairly mundane and don't seem worth the effort if they were a hoax. Obvious hoaxes exist but are relatively rare. That leaves the last category, usually the more detailed and fuller accounts, sometimes leading into unusual or thought-provoking ideas.

All I can say is, I don't think all are false, and some are supported by video or audio recordings (to be found elsewhere) which gives a better ability to assess the credibility of the account.
 
I've read quite a few of them. They seem to fall into four categories:
  • probably genuine
  • deliberately false as a tool of religious propaganda
  • deliberately false as a trolling attempt
  • unknown - possibly genuine, possibly creative writing
From what I've seen, many are fairly mundane and don't seem worth the effort if they were a hoax. Obvious hoaxes exist but are relatively rare. That leaves the last category, usually the more detailed and fuller accounts, sometimes leading into unusual or thought-provoking ideas.

All I can say is, I don't think all are false, and some are supported by video or audio recordings (to be found elsewhere) which gives a better ability to assess the credibility of the account.

Thanks, Typoz.... I don't think all of them are bogus but I don't understand why Jeff Long wants to collect so many stories. The more he archives the less impact any of them will have. Six thousand million NDE's later I think we've got the idea.......I was out of my body...I was going up a tunnel.....I saw a light that was more than a light etc etc.

I believe in these experiences, the genuine ones are really uplifting to read ..but I don't like commercialisation ...the cult of NDE ...where everything is about NDE's with NDE buzz words and tour guide descriptions of the afterlife...it's gets a bit silly IMHO
 
Thanks, Typoz.... I don't think all of them are bogus but I don't understand why Jeff Long wants to collect so many stories. The more he archives the less impact any of them will have. Six thousand million NDE's later I think we've got the idea.......
I hear what you are saying. Perhaps one function is to provide an outlet, some people hold on to their story for years, perhaps half a lifetime, unable to confide in those people closest to themselves. Sharing the experience like this might act as a release, allowing some of the frustration to be let go. Similarly, it may help others, regardless of whether they contribute to the collection, who have undergone a similar experience. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that this is providing a service not for the sceptics or disinterested bystanders, but for experiencers themselves, to make the open discussion of such topics less of a taboo. Though we freely ramble on about such things on this and other forums, it may not be so easy to do so in everyday life, where there is still some stigma attached to discussing these ideas.

Similarly, people probably feel reluctant to discuss reincarnation and expect to be taken seriously, there is a long way to go in gaining tolerance so these things may be discussed openly.
 
I hear what you are saying. Perhaps one function is to provide an outlet, some people hold on to their story for years, perhaps half a lifetime, unable to confide in those people closest to themselves. Sharing the experience like this might act as a release, allowing some of the frustration to be let go. Similarly, it may help others, regardless of whether they contribute to the collection, who have undergone a similar experience. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that this is providing a service not for the sceptics or disinterested bystanders, but for experiencers themselves, to make the open discussion of such topics less of a taboo. Though we freely ramble on about such things on this and other forums, it may not be so easy to do so in everyday life, where there is still some stigma attached to discussing these ideas.

Similarly, people probably feel reluctant to discuss reincarnation and expect to be taken seriously, there is a long way to go in gaining tolerance so these things may be discussed openly.

Good points. I would personally like Jeff Long to only include NDE's that occurred where medical records can be provided. He won't do that of course but then and only then would I ever read any of them.
My particular bug bear is the multi-NDEer... you know...." Hi my name is such and such a body and I just had my thirteenth NDE when I got my private parts caught in a spin dryer" ...that kind of thing. Like PMH Atwater, for instance.

I guess what I'm saying is I like my NDE rare.
 
I guess what I'm saying is I like my NDE rare.

I miss when we used to study OBEs and mediums; it seems like all anyone wants to talk about now is the NDE, but that isn't something that can be given to someone (at least not yet.)
 
Back
Top