Oh, I was confused, I thought he was doing quantum mechanical experiments. I'll check out the paper anyway.
~~ Paul
What Most People Fail to Understand about the Concept of Free Will
- Thread starter Dillinger
- Start date
~~ Paul
Kai
New
Sorry...why would it be 'magic' exactly?
I wasn't concerned about his rejection of parapsychology, but about specific statements concerning the experiments. However, I was confused because I thought the Markov experiments were quantum mechanical in nature.
~~ Paul
Dillinger
New
If you think there is some other model of free will that involves "something much more fundamental going on," then please share it with us. I have already provided this thread with a model of free will. As far as I can see, our decision-making process must either be a strictly deterministic process or a process that involves some element of randomness. And no one here (or anywhere else) has provided me anything that would lead me to think otherwise.
By the way, the two stage model does not preclude teleology (purpose) or final causality. At any rate, final causality is just another determining factor in our decision-making process.
Because there is no explanation of how I can possibly effect an RNG except by appeals to the mystical. Since it doesn't appear possible that I actually have a direct effect on the RNG, there must be some kind of intermediary. That's fine, except right now the description of that intermediary is nothing but "it's just so."
~~ Paul
I presume you realize that when you say "some element of randomness," most people would not interpret that to have anything to do with "a spontaneous event of conscious creativity."
~~ Paul
Kai
New
That doesn't bear any relationship to what I suggested in my previous post. You are criticizing a straw man.
Neil
New
If I were to throw my idea out, it would involve insertion of quantum information into the system to bias the output. This exchange of quantum information would not require a transfer of energy.
Dillinger
New
What exactly aren't you getting? There is no mechanism to explain how "randomness works." It's completely mystical. The best we can do is simply say that it is a spontaneous event or an uncaused cause.
But how do I make the connection with the RNG when I don't know its location, its structure, or how to bias it?
~~ Paul
Kai
New
Right. Which is no more or less mystical than a material concept of "random." There is no "intermediary." As I said, it is the action of the same principle. The same principle you use in your body to will your little finger to move.
Kai
New
Why would you believe it is your ratiocinating consciousness that "makes that connection"?
I don't know what you mean when you use the word "mystical." Are you embedding something in the randomness that can make a decision that has something to do with my desires, or are you just assuming the usual description of randomess? The usual description is that there are stochastic processes that are uncaused and so have absolutely nothing to do with something like making a decision relevant to me; that is, he first stage of the two-stage process is doing nothing other than flipping coins.
But you sound as if you think the two-stage process gives me libertarian free will, in which case stage one cannot just be coin flipping. What is it?
~~ Paul
Neil
New
That's a good question and I have no idea. This reminds me of the SCANATE remote viewing program, where the viewer would be given just coordinates and they could then start to gain information about the site. Crazy, right? I may be going off the deep end, but it almost seems like there is some intelligence behind these phenomena, as if something about consciousness can understand, interpret, and organize in a way that helps the desired outcome.
In my opinion, I think consciousness is fundamental and everything occurs as quantum information processing and integration (both matter and our conscious experience, including thoughts). Perhaps consciousness "makes sense" of the quantum information and may allow for these things to occur because of this. I don't know...it is something I really wonder about.
This is also why I am doubtful of free will just being a random process.
Perhaps, but if I were to assign probabilities to this stunningly complex underlying reality versus the possibility that the experiments are faulty, I'd be tempted to go with the latter. Just a temptation, of course.
~~ Paul
Kai
New
The same as the last time we had this discussion Paul. Why would I change it? A fundamental open-ness in the outcomes of being that is rooted in spontaneous action or selection among choices by a genuinely agentic neutral system. In no sense is the spontaneous action decided beforehand.
Dillinger
New
Most people are incapable of grasping the fact that determinsim and/or indeterminism are the only two logical possibilities (as the responses on this thread are making abundantly clear). At any rate, randomness serves the same function in the two stage model as its serves in Darwinian evolution. That's what generates the creativity. And as I have already explained to you, there is no mechanistic or materialistic explanation for a truly random event.