="tim, post: 58678, member: 244"]Thanks for the reply, Nassim
The mistake you are making is a common one based on old fashioned ideas that no longer apply because the rules have changed. People are now being brought back from death after many hours. They have...REALLY DIED....and been REALLY brought back. These people would have been wheeled off into the mortuary years ago after being pronounced dead but the technology is so advanced now, it's difficult to know when resuscitation should be stopped.
There is no reliable way to make the call, do we continue or do we stop, it's just down to the opinion of the doctors on call at the time.
LOL :DBucky, that's another great post. I would be better letting you guys deal with these "sceptics", I'm worn out frankly with their ludicrous assertions.
All i know is that the only absolute certainty in life is death .
="Bertha Huse, post: 58768, member: 787"]Typoz is right here - this is a red herring that Skeptics often use, and even Neil deGrasse Tyson tweeted a few months ago that NDE's were not actual death since everyone "returns".
What is being done here is a sleight of hand with defining "death". For example, suppose there is a fence with a gate, and two of us were walking toward that fence, and both of us went through the gate. One of us decided to keep going, and the other one decided to return back through the gate. Skeptics claim the person who returned, did not go through the gate because that person returned while the other did not.
For all we know, someone who has an NDE may actually have died. Just because they came back does not scientifically establish that they didn't actually die. For all we know right now scientifically, those who do come back, and those who don't - may have identical experiences which are indeed death or the process of dying without having taken the final step. That is to say, Skeptics currently have no scientific basis to assume that someone who doesn't come back, does not have the same experience as an NDE'r who does come back, so they cannot make the erroneous claim that death (or the process of death) is not involved in one case and not the other. It is an illogical red herring.
But besides the logical fallacy Skeptics make, there is actually some empirical evidence that does indicate to some degree that identical experiences do occur with NDE'rs and those who die and do not return. Moody recently wrote a book where he reported upon Shared Death Experiences where there are now some corroborated accounts where people present while a person is dying, have reported sharing well-known NDE like experiences with the person dying at the death-bed - and the person dies and does not come back. Which appears to preliminarily indicate that death experiences of those who do come back are identical with those who don't come back.
SDE's though have not been scientifically investigated as thoroughly as NDE's - so the evidence is still small, and will need more empirical work. But my guess is, additional studies will also confirm Moody's recent publication. There is also some older publications by the SPR regarding Death-Bed Visions (Barrett?) and Osis & Haraldsson's work "At the Hour of Death", which also provide some indications that those who actually die, have similar transpersonal experiences -witnessed by bedside friends, family or medical professionals.
Skeptics because of their a priori bias, do not really take any of the accounts seriously. They spend most of their time and intelligence attempting to come up with materialistic explanations for NDEs, or arguing methodologies used were wrong, none of which has proven to possess any reasonable scientific credibility to date.
Some are prisoners of semantics: if "death" is defined as irreversible death (biologic death), then it is clear that humans who have been reanimated are not dead, but if "death" is defined as cardiac arrest and EEG plane (clinic death), then some humans have died and been resurrected.
Anyway, Bertha has been right: NDEs and SDEs allow us to extrapolate that biologically dead have similar experiences to clinically dead.
Or is it? You cant say that if you are also stating that death is not reversable since that would mean that no one came back from the dead and could say anything certain about it. Conclusion here is then that we dont know anything about death - including if it is certain or just some sort of transformation or whatever you can imagine. Heck even the parts our bodies are made of arent just phasing out of existence when that happens what we call death. Its not as easy as we are making it.
I don't get your point here .Beat me .
To deny the fact that the only absolute certainty in life is death is really an irrational thing to do, to say the least .
Real death is irreversible ,since death is not just a biological process ,once again , because consciousness is not a biological process .
When you will really die , your consciousness or soul will survive death and leave your body by taking off to another destination beyond this world , and once your soul does that , it does not return to your body .
The people who get saved from death hours after their 'clinical death " were /are not really dead , because if they were /are , they wouldn't come back to life : modern science or technology cannot make the soul return to the body when the former leaves the latter, period .
I can't prove the above to you scientifically , but there are plenty of empirical evidence that prove the fact that consciousness does survive real death ..........
Irrational? Well, im not stating what im believing in. But you did state that you know that death is certain. So what is dying then? Our bodies? consciousness? What do you exactly know about that what happens when we die? Since you stated before that you believe that no one that can tell the tale about it died for real we cant say for sure if it is certain. Yep sure, you can poke a dead body, measure everything and whatever, but is that what used to be the human being dead?
I mean, in the end im just messing with you right now since i obviously never died myself so you propably shouldnt take that too seriously.
Are you some kind of immortal comedian, DasMurmeltier ?
We are mortal in this world but immortal in the next .
Everybody dies in this world to join the next : that's for sure .You have to try to die before death though ,if you wanna know what i am talking about . Cheers.
Am i immortal? Well, who knows? A comedian? Im always dead serious.
I understand what you are saying, and if we strictly define "death" as someone who never returns from what is considered a "clinical death" then I agree with you. Note that NDE actually is Near Death Experience: so really, it can be argued that NDE's really are not about actual death but near death events.Right : all materialist psychological and physiological explanations away of NDE do hold not much water indeed , but all i am saying is that NDE are not identical to real death experiences ,since the victims of the latter ( we will all really die some day ) do not come back to tell us about their real death experiences , so we can't compare those to NDE .
.Another problem is the complexity and anomaly of most NDE narratives which is baffling on so many levels. The "life review" that comes with a 360° perspective which includes the experiences of the other people involved is not just fascinating but opens so many questions. Where does the brain got that from? What the hell kind of "biological reason" would there be for a dying brain to setup such a profound experience while badly damaged and shutting down? Why generating an experience in the first place, thus wasting precious energy that should be diverted to critical life functions?
I've stated before this same thing and how that is the single most baffling aspect of NDEs to me: why?
It's been dismissed as a "side effect" which "skeptics" claim as an explanation, but it isn't. No matter which way you look at it, there just is no single biological or evolutionary reason why on earth a in a "cold, dead universe without direction or feeling" a phenomenon such as the NDE should exist. Just...none.