Why CDC whistleblower revelations about vaccines and autism never made headlines, and what that mean

That is an interesting question from the human rights perspective in the legal sense. I haven't followed this issue closely enough to know if there has been legal challenge on that basis.

I'm not a lawyer, but I tried to incorporate legalese in my statement above using words like "individual" and "natural right" and "consent"... somewhere in Utah these words tripped a "sovereign citizen" warning flag next to my name in the NSA database thereby increasing my threat matrix score by four points.
 
That is an interesting question from the human rights perspective in the legal sense. I haven't followed this issue closely enough to know if there has been legal challenge on that basis.

Arouet, I need your help! (If you have time...)

The hospital's policy states that employees must either receive the flu vaccine by 12/15 or turn in their medical or religious exemption form by that date. Failure to comply results in lost pay for up to 5 days. After that, termination of employment. She turned in her religious exemption form before the due date, but now they have responded saying that they could not verify that our religious organization exists or that I am clergy.

First of all, their policy does not define "religious organization" anywhere, so how can you require verification of the existence of something legally undefined?

Second of all, the policy only states that the form must be turned in by 12/15. They can't dock her pay or fire her if they are unable to verify something undefined, right? Wouldn't that give her a valid reason to sue?

What is the best course of action from a legal standpoint? I suggested she ask them to supply a reference to their legal definition of "religious organization."

Should I file an affidavit stating that we are a religious organization? Should we file a "certificate of formation?" Should I write a letter declaring our religious organization exists? I figure that might stall long enough for the affidavit to become "truth in law".

I don't know if this should be discussed on this thread, so maybe PM if you have any suggestions? Or if anyone else has any legal expertise, I'm all ears. :)
 
Arouet, I need your help! (If you have time...)

The hospital's policy states that employees must either receive the flu vaccine by 12/15 or turn in their medical or religious exemption form by that date. Failure to comply results in lost pay for up to 5 days. After that, termination of employment. She turned in her religious exemption form before the due date, but now they have responded saying that they could not verify that our religious organization exists or that I am clergy.

First of all, their policy does not define "religious organization" anywhere, so how can you require verification of the existence of something legally undefined?

Second of all, the policy only states that the form must be turned in by 12/15. They can't dock her pay or fire her if they are unable to verify something undefined, right? Wouldn't that give her a valid reason to sue?

What is the best course of action from a legal standpoint? I suggested she ask them to supply a reference to their legal definition of "religious organization."

Should I file an affidavit stating that we are a religious organization? Should we file a "certificate of formation?" Should I write a letter declaring our religious organization exists? I figure that might stall long enough for the affidavit to become "truth in law".

I don't know if this should be discussed on this thread, so maybe PM if you have any suggestions? Or if anyone else has any legal expertise, I'm all ears. :)

Honestly, I wouldn't want to be begin giving legal advice in this area, which is pretty far from my area of expertise. There are definitely well defined rules on what qualifies as a legitimate religious organisation in your jurisdiction. On the employment issue, she really should consult an employment lawyer in your jurisdiction right away before doing anything further. If she is unionized she should consult her union rep right away. They may have a lawyer she can consult and she may be obligated to pursue any legal action through her union in any event.

Many lawyers won't charge her for an initial consultation. If she cares about keeping her job as well as her principles then it is absolutely essential that she immediately - and I mean immediately - seek competent legal advice in her jurisdiction.
 
The hospital's policy states that employees must either receive the flu vaccine by 12/15 or turn in their medical or religious exemption form by that date. Failure to comply results in lost pay for up to 5 days. After that, termination of employment. She turned in her religious exemption form before the due date, but now they have responded saying that they could not verify that our religious organization exists or that I am clergy.

I'm sure you have looked into this in more depth than a web search but there are some sites that help with this kind of thing.

Many mistakenly believe that in order to claim a religious exemption to vaccination, you must belong to an organized religion or be a member of a church that "officially" opposes vaccination. -- but this is not the case! If you belong to a church or an organized religion (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc) that does not take an official position opposing vaccination, this does not prevent you from following your spiritual beliefs and filing a religious exemption to vaccination.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/12/27/legal-vaccine-exemptions.aspx

http://naturalsociety.com/how-to-avoid-mandatory-vaccinations-through-exemption/

Do you know any doctors that would sign a medical form for exemption? Maybe a natropathic doctor who is qualified to do so?

I'm sure they will make it seem like she has no choice, but when push comes to shove will they actually do something about it?
 
I'm sure you have looked into this in more depth than a web search but there are some sites that help with this kind of thing.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/12/27/legal-vaccine-exemptions.aspx

http://naturalsociety.com/how-to-avoid-mandatory-vaccinations-through-exemption/

Do you know any doctors that would sign a medical form for exemption? Maybe a natropathic doctor who is qualified to do so?

I'm sure they will make it seem like she has no choice, but when push comes to shove will they actually do something about it?

Thanks for the links! Yes doing more research, it seems the federal EEOC states that a person doesn't have to be a member of any religious organization to file a claim that their right to not be discriminated against on basis of religious belief or practice has been violated as laid out in title VII of the 1964 civil rights act. A person can also claim discrimination solely on moral or ethical grounds.

I'm thinking of writing an email to HR stating that as a courtesy I am willing to assist them in verifying that we are a religious organization, but reminding them that the reason they have a religious vaccine exemption form to begin with is in attempt to avoid religious discrimination as laid out by that law and the EEOC, and that proof of membership to a "religious organization" is not required by law.

I do know a good osteopathic doctor who would possibly sign the medical exemption form. He's the one who was open minded enough to test and treat me for Lyme disease. Problem is that I doubt we could see him before the 15th.

Edit: this spells it out for us right here...
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2012/religious_accommodation.html
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the links! Yes doing more research, it seems the federal EEOC states that a person doesn't have to be a member of any religious organization to file a claim that their right to not be discriminated against on basis of religious belief or practice has been violated as laid out in title VII of the 1964 civil rights act. A person can also claim discrimination solely on moral or ethical grounds.

I'm thinking of writing an email to HR stating that as a courtesy I am willing to assist them in verifying that we are a religious organization, but reminding them that the reason they have a religious vaccine exemption form to begin with is in attempt to avoid religious discrimination as laid out by that law and the EEOC, and that proof of membership to a "religious organization" is not required by law.

I do know a good osteopathic doctor who would possibly sign the medical exemption form. He's the one who was open minded enough to test and treat me for Lyme disease. Problem is that I doubt we could see him before the 15th.

As far as I could make out you don't have to be a formal member of a religious organization, you just have to claim that the flu shot is incompatible with your personal spiritual beliefs.

However, from what I have seen, these requests are not respected and they will try anything to force mandatory vaccination. You may end up jumping through all their hoops and still being fired at the end of it if you don't conform. It's worth a try...give them as little information as you can.

Ultimately I think Arouet might be right. If your girlfriend wants to continue in her line of work she may need a lawyer.
 
I'm thinking of writing an email to HR stating that as a courtesy I am willing to assist them in verifying that we are a religious organization, but reminding them that the reason they have a religious vaccine exemption form to begin with is in attempt to avoid religious discrimination as laid out by that law and the EEOC, and that proof of membership to a "religious organization" is not required by law.

I do know a good osteopathic doctor who would possibly sign the medical exemption form. He's the one who was open minded enough to test and treat me for Lyme disease. Problem is that I doubt we could see him before the 15th.

Edit: this spells it out for us right here...
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2012/religious_accommodation.html

Do what you will but my STRONG recommendation is to consult a proper lawyer - not a website. This is not a debate on an internet forum we're talking about but someone's career. If you care for her then do right by her by not taking reckless action that may cost her dearly.
 
Or why not just get the flu shot and not cause an issue with your source of income? Do you really fight every single battle that you come across? You need to pick your battles, preferably using wisdom. Seems like more of an ego stroking measure frankly. Take a close look at why you, or your other are actually making the decision. You might be surprised by your motives.
 
Oh ffs what right is more important than the right not to be injected with something when you don't want to be? We're talking about an employer having the right to inject a substance into your body. If that is not worth arguing about then I don't know what is.
 
Oh ffs what right is more important than the right not to be injected with something when you don't want to be? We're talking about an employer having the right to inject a substance into your body. If that is not worth arguing about then I don't know what is.
It's a flu shot and I assume the person in question works in health care.

I'd be curious what other substances people who oppose the flu shot put into their body. Do you ever eat fast food? Eat any processed food at all? Eat any food that come from China? (Almost all packaged spices now. Look at the labels.) Are you eating 100 percent whole natural foods? Are you taking any prescription drugs?

Employers have the right to make all kinds of decisions for you. Whether you can smoke cigarettes in some cases. What weight you need to maintain. If you don't like the requirements for a specific employer then you are always free to find another job.

It should come as no surprise that health care employers require you to have a flu shot. They have been doing it for years.

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't make a stand on not wanting to get a flu shot, but the employer has every right to fire you then. They set the rules for employment.
 
Oh ffs what right is more important than the right not to be injected with something when you don't want to be? We're talking about an employer having the right to inject a substance into your body. If that is not worth arguing about then I don't know what is.
Is someone holding you back from starting your own business? One where you set the rules for employment?
 
Do what you will but my STRONG recommendation is to consult a proper lawyer - not a website. This is not a debate on an internet forum we're talking about but someone's career. If you care for her then do right by her by not taking reckless action that may cost her dearly.

Well hopefully it won't come to that... not sure we could afford a lawyer and court battle right now. The EEOC can mediate free of charge so that will be our next move if they don't accept our latest efforts to demonstrate legitimacy: we have submitted a certificate of formation of nonprofit corporation. I have also created some affidavits to send them. If they don't accept these, then either the EEOC mediator or a letter from an attorney reminding them of the law and threatening to sue if they don't comply will be the next step.
 
Or why not just get the flu shot and not cause an issue with your source of income? Do you really fight every single battle that you come across? You need to pick your battles, preferably using wisdom. Seems like more of an ego stroking measure frankly. Take a close look at why you, or your other are actually making the decision. You might be surprised by your motives.

We both think this is an important issue from a human rights perspective and from a personal health perspective. At the very least, it is worth fighting until 12/15. If they don't fold before then, we'll determine at that point whether we want to suffer financial hardship for the cause.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red
It's a flu shot and I assume the person in question works in health care.

She works in the IT department at a hospital and does not have regular contact with patients. Everyone else in the IT department gave in and got immunized except for one co-worker who is a Jehovah's Witness; they accepted his religious exemption form.

Employers have the right to make all kinds of decisions for you.

According to the 1964 Human Rights Act, they don't have the right to force you to act contrary to your religious beliefs and "religion" is defined very broadly therein to encompass even moral or ethical beliefs and personal beliefs not recognized by a major religious organization.

If you don't like the requirements for a specific employer then you are always free to find another job.

True, but employers do have many limitations on what they can legally require of their employees.

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't make a stand on not wanting to get a flu shot...

Seems to me you're saying we shouldn't make a stand.. lol

but the employer has every right to fire you then.

Not according to the EEOC and the 1964 Human Rights Act. From the EEOC legal counsel:
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2012/religious_accommodation.html

13. May an employer covered by the ADA and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 compel all of its employees to take the influenza vaccine regardless of their medical conditions or their religious beliefs during a pandemic?
No. An employee may be entitled to an exemption from a mandatory vaccination requirement based on an ADA disability that prevents him from taking the influenza vaccine. This would be a reasonable accommodation barring undue hardship (significant difficulty or expense). Similarly, under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, once an employer receives notice that an employee's sincerely held religious belief, practice, or observance prevents him from taking the influenza vaccine, the employer must provide a reasonable accommodation unless it would pose an undue hardship as defined by Title VII ("more than de minimis cost" to the operation of the employer's business, which is a lower standard than under the ADA).
...

You also asked what steps, if any, hospitals may take to scrutinize a requesting employee's beliefs to determine whether the employee's asserted need for accommodation is based on a sincerely held religious belief, and whether hospitals require the requestor to have the support of a religious official. These issues are addressed in great detail, with accompanying examples, in the Compliance Manual, which in pertinent part explains:

Because the definition of religion is broad and protects beliefs and practices with which the employer may be unfamiliar, the employer should ordinarily assume that an employee's request for religious accommodation is based on a sincerely-held religious belief. If, however, an employee requests religious accommodation, and an employer has an objective basis for questioning either the religious nature or the sincerity of a particular belief or practice, the employer would be justified in seeking additional supporting information.

* * *

When an employer requests additional information, employees should provide information that addresses the employer's reasonable doubts. That information need not, however, take any specific form. For example, written materials or the employee's own first-hand explanation may be sufficient to alleviate the employer's doubts about the sincerity or religious nature of the employee's professed belief such that third-party verification is unnecessary. Further, since idiosyncratic beliefs can be sincerely held and religious, even when third-party verification is needed, it does not have to come from a church official or member, but rather could be provided by others who are aware of the employee's religious practice or belief.

An employee who fails to cooperate with an employer's reasonable request for verification of the sincerity or religious nature of a professed belief risks losing any subsequent claim that the employer improperly denied an accommodation. By the same token, employers who unreasonably request unnecessary or excessive corroborating evidence risk being held liable for denying a reasonable accommodation request, and having their actions challenged as retaliatory or as part of a pattern of harassment.
 
Last edited:
She works in the IT department at a hospital and does not have regular contact with patients. Everyone else in the IT department gave in and got immunized except for one co-worker who is a Jehovah's Witness; they accepted his religious exemption form.



According to the 1964 Human Rights Act, they don't have the right to force you to act contrary to your religious beliefs and "religion" is defined very broadly therein to encompass even moral or ethical beliefs and personal beliefs not recognized by a major religious organization.



True, but employers do have many limitations on what they can legally require of their employees.



Seems to me you're saying we shouldn't make a stand.. lol



Not according to the EEOC and the 1964 Human Rights Act. From the EEOC legal counsel:
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2012/religious_accommodation.html
More power to you. I totally support your right to fight. But don't expect to win a battle against the man. Like I said in the beginning. It comes down to choosing your battles. If you think this is an important battle for you then go for it. I tend to think a flu shot that 95% of old people and 99% of health care workers get every year is probably pretty harmless.

You didn't answer my questions about what else you put into your bodies. Do you eat 100% whole foods that are locally sourced? You don't drink soda? Nothing processed? Do you smoke cigarettes?
 
I tend to think a flu shot that 95% of old people and 99% of health care workers get every year is probably pretty harmless.

The vaccine insert states possible harmful side effects. Additionally, the long term negative effects of vaccination are obscured because vaccine makers cannot be sued and because... well see the original topic of this thread... there is faulty and incomplete information out there.

You didn't answer my questions about what else you put into your bodies. Do you eat 100% whole foods that are locally sourced? You don't drink soda? Nothing processed? Do you smoke cigarettes?

I ignored it because I thought it was an irrelevant argument. But yes, we do try to eat very healthy. She doesn't eat sugar (I like a cookie every now and then). We don't have a lot of time to cook for ourselves, but we do try to buy top quality healthy ingredients and eat at healthy restaurants. I intend to eventually plant a garden, but just moved in the last year and there's been a lot going on so haven't had the time. We don't drink soda. We try to avoid processed foods. Neither of us smoke. We drink occasionally.
 
The vaccine insert states possible harmful side effects. Additionally, the long term negative effects of vaccination are obscured because vaccine makers cannot be sued and because... well see the original topic of this thread... there is faulty and incomplete information out there.



I ignored it because I thought it was an irrelevant argument. But yes, we do try to eat very healthy. She doesn't eat sugar (I like a cookie every now and then). We don't have a lot of time to cook for ourselves, but we do try to buy top quality healthy ingredients and eat at healthy restaurants. I intend to eventually plant a garden, but just moved in the last year and there's been a lot going on so haven't had the time. We don't drink soda. We try to avoid processed foods. Neither of us smoke. We drink occasionally.
I sympathize with you, I do. But I am a realist as well. Our employers ask all kinds of things of us and if we want to continue our employment, then we comply. You don't have to, but if you neglect the requests of your employer for long, you will be let go. Even if they agree for whatever reason to allow her to not get the vaccine, then when layoffs come up, she will be the first to go. Hospitals are notorious for laying off "troublemakers" (my wife was one) regardless of how that employee performs.
 
Back
Top