Mod+ Why materialism is baloney

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by Michael Larkin, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    The title of this thread isn't mine: It's the title of Bernardo Kastrup's latest book, due out soon. I hope that Alex will consider interviewing him about it.

    Bernardo's ideas on Idealism are what persuaded me to become an idealist myself. On another thread, I despaired that someone came up with the analogy of The Matrix to try to explain the idealist view of reality. Instead, I will present Bernardo's analogy, which he covers in what is essentially an introduction to his new book--see below (40 minutes):



    There's also an 87-minute podcast here:

    http://awakeningzone.com/Episode.aspx?EpisodeID=2069

    I'm making this a Mod+ thread because I'm going to invite Bernardo to take part. He might come if he can be assured that he won't get "stuck on stupid" arguments. He's a really smart person, with academic (science) and business credentials. We'll be privileged if he does turn up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
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  2. EthanT

    EthanT Member

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    I thought that was a really cool presentation too. Like you, I was also persuaded by Bernardo's arguments on Idealism. Well, he made Idealism make sense, because I'm not sure I really understood what it was about before his material.

    It also jived up very well with everything I had learned from almost 20 years of on-again, off-again comparative mythology studies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
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  3. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    Simple and beautiful, it ties in so well with my own thoughts on information and semiosis, that information has no intrinisic meaning unto itself, it requires interpretation to manifest otherwise it simply does not exist. Bernado does not use the term information and probably for good reason as it can have different meanings depending on how it is used and where, it can confuse the issue. To me though It appears as one and the same in principle.

    As he says it requires no new physics or grand speculations, I must say it screams to my intuition regarding the quantum enigma. Many of the insurmountable problems that materialism struggles with simply disolve away, they are only problems in the context of a metaphysical assumption that everything exists independent of mind.

    I seem to be having a steady stream of synchronous discoveries that all point to this concept.
     
  4. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    There is something here that illuminates many of my own personal experience with expanded consciousness, in particular synesthesia which I have experienced several times with colour and sound. It would seem absurd to say that sound has a colour or vice versa, yet it appears real and is just the subjective interpretation of the abstract forms.
     
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  5. Vortex

    Vortex Member

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    It would be great to see Bernardo on the New Skeptiko! :) I miss him on the forum.
     
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  6. P.J.

    P.J. Member

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    I've contacted both Alex and Bernardo about Bernardo being on Skeptiko once again to coincide with the release of the new book. They were both game. I love Bernardo.

    Additionally, I like the way he presents his ideas in this interview, which I would also highly recommend. -- http://www.etvita.com/2013/03/making-case-for-idealism-et-vita.html (the post interview comments section is also worth reading)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  7. Bernardo Kastrup

    Bernardo Kastrup New

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    Thank you all for the nice words. It's really appreciated and encouraging!
     
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  8. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Many of us admire your work, Bernardo; and I missed you on the old Skeptiko forum where I think you got a bit exasperated with the inane comments of some of the "sceptics". Now that we have the Mod+ category on this new forum, I hope you'll be a contributor in future, though I do realise you are a very busy person.

    I was interested to hear that you had had spiritual experiences: which book of yours do you cover those in? I think that having had such experiences (I've had them myself, purely spontaneously) helps not just in being prepared to accept the possibility of idealism, but in the general feeling of a need to try to explain reality, why we're here, and all that.

    Even as a very young kid I always felt not quite bought in to mundane experience and explanations: there always seemed to be something deeply mysterious about being here at all and experiencing anything whatsoever. I honestly thought all the grown-ups knew what the secret was and that one day (when I was 40, as it happens), I would be initiated into the club. Fat chance! ;)

    Materialists (I was one myself for a while in my late 'teens and early twenties) have lost that sense of amazement at the phenomenon of consciousness: how utterly extraordinary it is, and how utterly miraculous it would be if it arose from non-conscious stuff--much more miraculous than the explanation that consciousness has primacy and is what creates the regularities "outside" the "vortices" that analogise human-level localisations of consciousness. Like you say, it is so much more parsimonious and coherent as an explanation of reality. Over time, I think you have been refining the projection of your understanding of idealism, and that it's been getting clearer and clearer to me as a result. I can't wait for your new book!
     
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  9. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Incidentally, Bernardo, I have to give a hat-tip to soulatman, a contributor here, for posting this video on another thread:



    It perfectly expresses my childhood feeling that something funny was going on, and does it in an ironic and engaging way.
     
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  10. Bernardo Kastrup

    Bernardo Kastrup New

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    Hi Michael,
    Well, our sceptic friends were not at all the reason why I began to participate less in the old forum. It doesn't matter what it was now; I just wanted to point out that I don't get upset with sceptic reactions or incisive arguments. I like fireworks, for it gives me license to reply incisively too... ;-) As far as I am concerned, I am game for any kind of sceptic attack on my ideas, even those edging on the personal. If I find them too personal or too dumb, I just won't reply.
    Yes, I have had what I'd call 'transcendent' experiences, which I relate in my book "Dreamed up Reality." I also try to make some sense of them in the book, though it's all speculative. That book is completely different from "Why Materialism Is Baloney," which is a hard-nosed argument.
    Like you, the older I get the more I see the gratuitousness and, frankly, stupidity of the core assumptions of our culture regarding the nature of what's going on.
    Cheers, Bernardo.

     
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  11. Bernardo Kastrup

    Bernardo Kastrup New

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    I am told that I am quoted in the next episode of this video series... so I'm curious about, and looking forward to, it. :)
    Cheers Bernardo.
    PS: Though I like the video, I don't think that materialism is wrong merely because it's such a depressive and gray worldview... I think it's wrong because it doesn't make sense in view of logic and evidence.

     
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  12. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Ah, right: my mistake. Well, whatever it was, let's hope it isn't repeated! :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  13. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Well, fancy that. Maybe I'm psychic after all, eh?
    For my own part, I think materialism's incorrect from both an intellectual and feeling viewpoint: as a kid, the latter necessarily dominated, but as I've got older, I've sought out the intellectual side as well, and idealism has proved to be the most satisfying explanation for me.
     
  14. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

    Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Member

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    You are overgeneralizing "materialists" lack of amazement.

    ~~ Paul
     
  15. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    Apparently you are still a materialist. What you praise here is the main contention of materialism - that consciousness (by which they usually mean something akin to an animal being conscious) arises from non-conscious " stuff".

    "Spiritualists" (I dislike the term but it's the one used most on this forum) realize that consciousness (by which we mean non-physical) is primary and that "stuff" (physical form) is but one expression of that non-physical.
     
  16. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Saiko, you're getting up my nose and I think you're just a troll who likes nothing better than to argue to get a rise from people. Fine. I'm putting you on ignore now and you will simply disappear.
     
  17. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

    Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Member

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    I doubt you'll see this, Michael, but I think Saiko simply misunderstood you.

    ~~ Paul
     
  18. malf

    malf Member

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    Not sure... I think Michael may have come to a valid conclusion regarding Saiko...
     
  19. EthanT

    EthanT Member

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    I think Paul might be right here Michael. I believe it is mainly due to Saiko's efforts that we now have the Explorers and Implementers Forum at: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/forums/explorers-implementers/

    Quite a strange troll, if indeed Saiko is one ;-)
     
  20. Jules

    Jules New

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    How amazed are you Paul?
     

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