Why............would we do that??

A "soul" or personal consciousness I think would have an origin, and there is no choice involved.

If that personal consciousness reincarnates, it is difficult to know what goes on between different lives. Was there really a choice? Or was the personal consciousness just conditioned which results in rebirth? And what is the state of consciousness after death? NDEs suggest that it is clear, but Buddhists in the Book of Bardo say that it can be confusing and almost dream-like. How do we know how we would act or decide anything in such a state?

Why do you choose what you choose in your dreams now? Why aren't all your dreams exclusively full of bliss?

As you suggest, there are many different hypotheses out there. I think the basis for the choice hypothesis is based on accounts of some mediums, NDEs reporting that they were conveyed information that we come here by choice. Some even suggest that we choose our particular roles.

The question of whether that is the case is a different issue but I think for the purpose of this thread we're just assuming the choice option for the sake of the discussion.
 
As you suggest, there are many different hypotheses out there. I think the basis for the choice hypothesis is based on accounts of some mediums, NDEs reporting that they were conveyed information that we come here by choice. Some even suggest that we choose our particular roles.

The question of whether that is the case is a different issue but I think for the purpose of this thread we're just assuming the choice option for the sake of the discussion.

I guess I don't really have much to say, then. How could we know? How do we judge the truth of that type of information that may come from an NDE? Or a medium? In NDE, where is the distinction between objective experience and subjective experience that is a result of past impressions? Even if there is a sort of objective aspect of an NDE, that doesn't mean that there also isn't subjectivity mixed into it.

For example, I think that with a schizophrenic, perhaps there is a dysfunction of the brain that may allow for greater intrusion of psychic perceptions, but can also be mixed with hallucinations of the mind. Where do you draw the line? How do you make a distinction between what may be a more objective psychic perception and what may be a delusion or hallucination of the dysfunctional brain?
 
I guess I don't really have much to say, then. How could we know? How do we judge the truth of that type of information that may come from an NDE? Or a medium? In NDE, where is the distinction between objective experience and subjective experience that is a result of past impressions? Even if there is a sort of objective aspect of an NDE, that doesn't mean that there also isn't subjectivity mixed into it.

For example, I think that with a schizophrenic, perhaps there is a dysfunction of the brain that may allow for greater intrusion of psychic perceptions, but can also be mixed with hallucinations of the mind. Where do you draw the line? How do you make a distinction between what may be a more objective psychic perception and what may be a delusion or hallucination of the dysfunctional brain?

I'm not disagreeing. It's just not the purpose of this thread (according to the OP) to get into those issues (we have lots of other threads though that do).

The issues that you raise are important, and frankly are more my focus most of the time, but its also interesting to have discussions where we take certain hypotheses as given for the sake of the discussion, and see where we go from there.
 
I wasn't too sure where to post this (I hope this is a sufficiently relevant thread), but I was reading this article and this particular passage made me wonder about how some people think....some people (some Christians? Perhaps some Buddhists/Hinduists, too: karma etc?) seem to find a "divine" reason for everything and gladly "play along", assuming that whatever we suffer is due to our being bad (or at any rate "not good enough") and it will be (I quote) "good for the soul". It kind of sounds like this German guy is saying that he is happy to help God inflict terrorism upon his fellow German Christians as a punishment for being (I quote) "too complacent and materialistic" (note the use of the word "apocalyptic" in this article)....weird or what? Any comments?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/m...KTG-MOD-61922-0409-HD&WT.mc_ev=click&WT.mc_c=

"Graf von Rechberg is an interesting man. He invited asylum seekers into his home for dinner, but he held an almost apocalyptic view of their presence in Germany. Many of them, he predicted, would come to live in Muslim-majority ghettos like those in Paris, “where they don’t do anything, don’t work and then watch some stupid Internet films, and then some will carry out terrorist attacks,” he said. “I can’t change that. I can only accept it, and that will be our future.”

I asked him if this vision wasn’t a bit fatalistic. He told me that he saw matters in a religious light. Germany’s Christians had grown too complacent and materialistic, and the challenges ahead — ISIS attacks included — would force them to remember their Christian values. “Cozy postwar Germany” was a thing of the past, he told me. And yet he saw this new unease as good for the soul. For him personally, the discomfort was a chance for self-improvement and an opportunity to double down on values of openness and benevolence in the face of anxiety. “Germany is very much bound in this international migration of peoples,” he said. “I must realize this chance, because if I don’t, then I’ll get bitter.”
 
I wasn't too sure where to post this (I hope this is a sufficiently relevant thread), but I was reading this article and this particular passage made me wonder about how some people think....some people (some Christians? Perhaps some Buddhists/Hinduists, too: karma etc?) seem to find a "divine" reason for everything and gladly "play along", assuming that whatever we suffer is due to our being bad (or at any rate "not good enough") and it will be (I quote) "good for the soul". It kind of sounds like this German guy is saying that he is happy to help God inflict terrorism upon his fellow German Christians as a punishment for being (I quote) "too complacent and materialistic" (note the use of the word "apocalyptic" in this article)....weird or what? Any comments?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/m...KTG-MOD-61922-0409-HD&WT.mc_ev=click&WT.mc_c=

"Graf von Rechberg is an interesting man. He invited asylum seekers into his home for dinner, but he held an almost apocalyptic view of their presence in Germany. Many of them, he predicted, would come to live in Muslim-majority ghettos like those in Paris, “where they don’t do anything, don’t work and then watch some stupid Internet films, and then some will carry out terrorist attacks,” he said. “I can’t change that. I can only accept it, and that will be our future.”

I asked him if this vision wasn’t a bit fatalistic. He told me that he saw matters in a religious light. Germany’s Christians had grown too complacent and materialistic, and the challenges ahead — ISIS attacks included — would force them to remember their Christian values. “Cozy postwar Germany” was a thing of the past, he told me. And yet he saw this new unease as good for the soul. For him personally, the discomfort was a chance for self-improvement and an opportunity to double down on values of openness and benevolence in the face of anxiety. “Germany is very much bound in this international migration of peoples,” he said. “I must realize this chance, because if I don’t, then I’ll get bitter.”
I just find those views objectionable and crazy, as I expect do you! There must be plenty of Germans whose lives are not that cosy, and anyway ISIS violence affects everyone - including the Muslim immigrants!

I think my impression from insights people report from NDE's etc, is that possibly life here is rather like going on a scary fairground ride, or playing a really immersive computer game. I find it suggestive that people are attracted to such stressful activities as a challenge. I think possibly spending time on Earth is seen in something like that light. I mean dropping vertically on a roller coaster isn't that different from dying some deaths, except that you know you should be OK at the end, but just like real life, you aren't absolutely sure!

David
 
I just find those views objectionable and crazy, as I expect do you! There must be plenty of Germans whose lives are not that cosy, and anyway ISIS violence affects everyone - including the Muslim immigrants!

I think my impression from insights people report from NDE's etc, is that possibly life here is rather like going on a scary fairground ride, or playing a really immersive computer game. I find it suggestive that people are attracted to such stressful activities as a challenge. I think possibly spending time on Earth is seen in something like that light. I mean dropping vertically on a roller coaster isn't that different from dying some deaths, except that you know you should be OK at the end, but just like real life, you aren't absolutely sure!

David
Yes, I most definitely find those views objectionable and crazy, but he certainly seems to be articulating very candidly what I see as a "death drive" (to use a Freudian term) of the so-called "developed world" (far too "tolerant of intolerance" and "resigned to acceptance of what is" for its own good). It's funny that Gnostics like me are told that we are potential nihilists, when lots of "mainstream Christians" are basically happily digging their own grave (and that of others, which is far worse, of course) in the name of (their) Lord.

I hope you're right about your conclusions about NDEs. In any case you would seem to exclude a moral significance for incarnation (which would be just an immersive GAME, not a school where we learn to be "good", to forgive etc, as others maintain). If incarnation is just a fairground ride (which it may well be) I still wonder who put me on that roller coaster though, since I am most definitely not a thrill-seeker. Nobody has managed to convince me that we all chose to be here. Maybe some did, what do I know (or maybe they found that they enjoyed the ride once they got here) - but making such a sweeping statement about all of us is pretty dogmatic (as well as unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course) - not saying you do, but many do.
 
Yes, I most definitely find those views objectionable and crazy, but he certainly seems to be articulating very candidly what I see as a "death drive" (to use a Freudian term) of the so-called "developed world" (far too "tolerant of intolerance" and "resigned to acceptance of what is" for its own good). It's funny that Gnostics like me are told that we are potential nihilists, when lots of "mainstream Christians" are basically happily digging their own grave (and that of others, which is far worse, of course) in the name of (their) Lord.

I hope you're right about your conclusions about NDEs. In any case you would seem to exclude a moral significance for incarnation (which would be just an immersive GAME, not a school where we learn to be "good", to forgive etc, as others maintain). If incarnation is just a fairground ride (which it may well be) I still wonder who put me on that roller coaster though, since I am most definitely not a thrill-seeker. Nobody has managed to convince me that we all chose to be here. Maybe some did, what do I know (or maybe they found that they enjoyed the ride once they got here) - but making such a sweeping statement about all of us is pretty dogmatic (as well as unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course) - not saying you do, but many do.

I think that we have to balance the acceptance of things as they are with ambition to change them. Obviously fatalism is off in one ditch, but I think excessive ambition to fix the world can lead to personal problems as well. And I think this balance can take the form of a periodicity where maybe we go through an activist phase and then get burned out and go through a quiet getting to know one's self phase. And back and forth. Balance the being with the doing.

If this is a game, maybe that's why we all start out as gametes.

How'd you wind up here? Maybe you were hanging out with your soul group at the multiverse worlds fair and they we're like, "hey this earth ride looks cool! Let's incarnate it! It's only 5 tokens but you can get 50 experience tickets per incarnation!" And you were like, "I dono guys.. Looks messy and scary..." And they were like, "come on!" So you didn't want to get left out and that's why you're here.
 
I wasn't too sure where to post this (I hope this is a sufficiently relevant thread), but I was reading this article and this particular passage made me wonder about how some people think....some people (some Christians? Perhaps some Buddhists/Hinduists, too: karma etc?) seem to find a "divine" reason for everything and gladly "play along", assuming that whatever we suffer is due to our being bad (or at any rate "not good enough") and it will be (I quote) "good for the soul". It kind of sounds like this German guy is saying that he is happy to help God inflict terrorism upon his fellow German Christians as a punishment for being (I quote) "too complacent and materialistic" (note the use of the word "apocalyptic" in this article)....weird or what? Any comments?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/m...KTG-MOD-61922-0409-HD&WT.mc_ev=click&WT.mc_c=

"Graf von Rechberg is an interesting man. He invited asylum seekers into his home for dinner, but he held an almost apocalyptic view of their presence in Germany. Many of them, he predicted, would come to live in Muslim-majority ghettos like those in Paris, “where they don’t do anything, don’t work and then watch some stupid Internet films, and then some will carry out terrorist attacks,” he said. “I can’t change that. I can only accept it, and that will be our future.”

I asked him if this vision wasn’t a bit fatalistic. He told me that he saw matters in a religious light. Germany’s Christians had grown too complacent and materialistic, and the challenges ahead — ISIS attacks included — would force them to remember their Christian values. “Cozy postwar Germany” was a thing of the past, he told me. And yet he saw this new unease as good for the soul. For him personally, the discomfort was a chance for self-improvement and an opportunity to double down on values of openness and benevolence in the face of anxiety. “Germany is very much bound in this international migration of peoples,” he said. “I must realize this chance, because if I don’t, then I’ll get bitter.”

A very interesting post and article. Apocalypses have a certain draw to them (as I know from experience). I don't think Graf von Rechberg is keen on "helping" God inflict terrorism. Instead he is fatalistic and committed to his Christian ideals with a bit of Apocalypse thrown in. Now, a tricky question - is there a divine reason for everything and should we "play along"? The second point is simpler - if there is a divine reason for everything then we are also accepting that God knows best so we should "play along". This gives rise to fatalism (which I don't like). What do I believe? I believe that God knows every detail about the future but I also believe that we have free will. I don't know how these two things can be reconciled but I am not God. God can eat his cake and have it too. No problem. Now, the trickier question, is there a divine reason for everything? Well, since I believe in free will, I must say "no". That said, I firmly believe there is a divine reason for some things. Very interesting to think about. Has helped me clarify my thoughts.
 
Yes, I most definitely find those views objectionable and crazy, but he certainly seems to be articulating very candidly what I see as a "death drive" (to use a Freudian term) of the so-called "developed world" (far too "tolerant of intolerance" and "resigned to acceptance of what is" for its own good). It's funny that Gnostics like me are told that we are potential nihilists, when lots of "mainstream Christians" are basically happily digging their own grave (and that of others, which is far worse, of course) in the name of (their) Lord.

I hope you're right about your conclusions about NDEs. In any case you would seem to exclude a moral significance for incarnation (which would be just an immersive GAME, not a school where we learn to be "good", to forgive etc, as others maintain). If incarnation is just a fairground ride (which it may well be) I still wonder who put me on that roller coaster though, since I am most definitely not a thrill-seeker. Nobody has managed to convince me that we all chose to be here. Maybe some did, what do I know (or maybe they found that they enjoyed the ride once they got here) - but making such a sweeping statement about all of us is pretty dogmatic (as well as unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course) - not saying you do, but many do.

I do believe what is going on here can be described as a "game" of sorts. This is why my avatar is a game piece. That said, I don't believe it is "just a game".

Why believe we have "chosen" to be here? Simply because the idea keeps cropping up (quite often). A good example from Natalie Sudman (http://ndestories.org/natalie-sudman/):
"She talks about the different forms (shapes/appearances) she took in all three environments, and how her soul (whole self) chose the injuries she would have when re-entering her physical body. She also discusses why she chose those injuries, what the Healing Environment was like and what it teaches us about our soul’s detachment and sense of humor, and why our souls make choices for tragedies in the first place."

I like to believe that I believe in those things for which I have evidence. There is (some) evidence for the idea that some or all of us have chosen our lives.
 
Yes, I most definitely find those views objectionable and crazy, but he certainly seems to be articulating very candidly what I see as a "death drive" (to use a Freudian term) of the so-called "developed world" (far too "tolerant of intolerance" and "resigned to acceptance of what is" for its own good). It's funny that Gnostics like me are told that we are potential nihilists, when lots of "mainstream Christians" are basically happily digging their own grave (and that of others, which is far worse, of course) in the name of (their) Lord.
Yes, I do detect a Western death drive, but only among a certain elite that are utterly irresponsible. I think it shows up in CAGW as well.
I hope you're right about your conclusions about NDEs. In any case you would seem to exclude a moral significance for incarnation (which would be just an immersive GAME, not a school where we learn to be "good", to forgive etc, as others maintain). If incarnation is just a fairground ride (which it may well be) I still wonder who put me on that roller coaster though, since I am most definitely not a thrill-seeker. Nobody has managed to convince me that we all chose to be here. Maybe some did, what do I know (or maybe they found that they enjoyed the ride once they got here) - but making such a sweeping statement about all of us is pretty dogmatic (as well as unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course) - not saying you do, but many do.

It is really hard to know, isn't it? Some (ordinary) games teach us useful things - for example, pilots learn how to fly planes using simulators, and one hears these can be quite immersive too. A lot of NDE's seem to report some concept of selecting a life ahead of time, and then being immersed in it. This sounds a
pretty weird concept, but many people also say that time doesn't exist out there. which is even harder to understand!

Without time, most verbs like 'decide' or 'choose' etc seem to have no meaning. This makes me wonder if there is a time out there, but it isn't linked to our time here, so that out there you see your time(s) on Earth as frozen, but you still have a time thread in which to think and develop.

David
 
I woke up in the night and found myself thinking about the concept of a European death drive!

I actually do wonder if some of what is going on nowadays represents the action of some external psychic force that is trying to destroy Europe - and maybe the whole Western world. It seems to operate primarily from within, making those in its grip utterly reckless. There seems to be a layer of influential people who want to destroy our electricity supply on the flimsiest excuse (I am not sure they really care about Green issues ), and to let in people who mean us harm. We have also put in place layers and layers of laws that seem to make it less and less possible to maintain control. To take one example, migrants who are in their twenties (mainly men) will be accepted as children under 16 if they claim to be so - this seems to be a legal requirement. Moreover, NGO's were actually telling migrants to use this absurd loophole! Thus a poor Swedish woman of 22 was working at a children's camp and complained that she was surrounded by strapping young men - not children. Then she tried to break up a fight and was stabbed to death. I dare say that the 'human rights' legislation made it unacceptable to search these 'children' for knives, and so it goes on.

Nobody who truly valued the rule of law would support creation of such laws, because they must end in a period of lawlessness.

I start to wonder if this mesh of rules was constructed (maybe unconsciously) to destroy society.

Maybe such death urges have occurred before - e.g. in the build-up to WW1. Maybe ISIS itself is responding to the same drive - after all, many of its followers were enjoying what the West had to give them, including a university education, and are now simply bent on killing as many of their fellow human beings as possible.

Conceivably this force has acted over and over to destroy the many civilisations that precede our own.

Many of us in Europe puzzle over the wave of irrationality that has engulfed us recently. Maybe the US is a bit more resistant, but I don't know - what happens if such people get in control of nuclear weapons?

David
 
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I hope you're right about your conclusions about NDEs. In any case you would seem to exclude a moral significance for incarnation (which would be just an immersive GAME, not a school where we learn to be "good", to forgive etc, as others maintain). If incarnation is just a fairground ride (which it may well be) I still wonder who put me on that roller coaster though, since I am most definitely not a thrill-seeker. Nobody has managed to convince me that we all chose to be here. Maybe some did, what do I know (or maybe they found that they enjoyed the ride once they got here) - but making such a sweeping statement about all of us is pretty dogmatic (as well as unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course) - not saying you do, but many do.

I think just as there can be different afterlives for different souls, there can be different reasons to incarnate on this level of reality.

Some might choose to come here, others might be exiled or determined to pay off some kind of karmic debt, others might just get caught up in environmental effects (anyone remember ethereal cyclones and astral winds in D&D?)

I really don't know - my certainty only extends to materialism & mechanistic thinking being false.

If this is a game, maybe that's why we all start out as gametes.

How'd you wind up here? Maybe you were hanging out with your soul group at the multiverse worlds fair and they we're like, "hey this earth ride looks cool! Let's incarnate it! It's only 5 tokens but you can get 50 experience tickets per incarnation!" And you were like, "I dono guys.. Looks messy and scary..." And they were like, "come on!" So you didn't want to get left out and that's why you're here.

Haha nice pun!

Also I feel like you'd love Rick & Morty (warning, first episode weaker than rest of series):

 
I think just as there can be different afterlives for different souls, there can be different reasons to incarnate on this level of reality.

Some might choose to come here, others might be exiled or determined to pay off some kind of karmic debt, others might just get caught up in environmental effects (anyone remember ethereal cyclones and astral winds in D&D?)

I really don't know - my certainty only extends to materialism & mechanistic thinking being false.



Haha nice pun!

Also I feel like you'd love Rick & Morty (warning, first episode weaker than rest of series):


Haha nice! :) I'll have to check out the show.
 
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