Will Misogyny Bring Down The Atheist Movement?

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I think the issue is rape by known persons is seen by many people as acceptable, or at least not as egregious a crime as rape by a stranger.

Rape by a stranger is more directly cut and dry, I would suppose. More likely for there to have been a violent struggle, which generates evidence, which fits the naive model of "it looks like a crime." Its also probably very likely to get reported to the police as people don't appreciate strangers coming in and doing bad things.

I used to know a woman who claimed she was raped, and when discussed it was more of a case of a very pushy boyfriend. I asked why she didn't report it and I was told that she "didn't want him to get in to trouble" [e.g. the whole mess of sex offense registry, prison, effectively being permanently unemployable] and it became unclear whether it was actually forced or not, but when pointed in the direction of the police she didn't consider it worth filing. I thought it was incredibly strange behavior, but sometimes the woman might actually have been directly abused and for whatever reason chooses not to file it, and other times a different woman is simply filing rape charges because she knows our culture will automatically ruin his career and reputation even if the case is dropped a week later.

Would we have this same idea of taking responsibility for drunkeness if straight men were often being raped by people they thought they knew?

I doubt it. There's an eerily high number of pseudo-equality people who think its impossible to be racist against white folk, and even those who deem it "reverse racism", even though its just plain racism. Similarly, a lot of misguided feminists who seem to think being a man is sunshine and rainbows where nothing is ever your fault and you just get handed briefcases of privilege money all day.
 
How is this even an issue? So what if he tried to get a chick drunk. Who gives a shit? This dumb bimbo could have just not gotten drunk and not had sex with Shermer, right?

If somebody gets you a drink at a party and you drink it and then that somebody gets you another drink, that's usually called being considerate.

Jerks.

Edit: Oh wait, they were playing a drinking game?! God, you guys disappoint me.
Well would it be OK to get someone drunk and then rob them!

Come on - if two people are going to have sex, they should both be sober enough to give consent - and to enjoy the occasion!

Just because someone is tricked doesn't make them 'dumb'

David
 
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Longtime Skeptiko lurker here, who also happens to be female AND a rape victim.

Just wanted to say, this thread has been very disappointing. But, I did want to say a big THANK YOU to K9! (long live the Doctor!) for speaking up for women. And the few men who spoke up too about predatory behavior by other men (you know who you are, I am sure.)

I don't know why I keep reading this thread and getting upset, but I do..... My fault. But thanks K9 for trying.

Back to lurking.........
 
Nobody has said anything about exonerating proven rapists, though. People have just interpreted any suggestion that victims sometimes make poor decisions that worsen their own problem as a sign that its the victim's fault.

Well, to be fair, you did emphasize that the response to this situation was "don't get smashed", not "don't force sex when consent cannot be given". This certainly gives the impression that the onus is on the victim.

"And instead of suggesting people MALE OR FEMALE not get smashed in public, we should somehow change the entire nature of mankind rather than accept two parties involved."

Its effectively impossible. The moment you suggest people should take appropriate precautions is the same instant a dozen people dogpile you as a woman-hating rapist in waiting.

Yeah, I agree the "misogyny" claim is over the top, as well as the suggestion that rape is about an ordinary man who has mis-judged capacity.

Linda
 
Longtime Skeptiko lurker here, who also happens to be female AND a rape victim.

Just wanted to say, this thread has been very disappointing. But, I did want to say a big THANK YOU to K9! (long live the Doctor!) for speaking up for women. And the few men who spoke up too about predatory behavior by other men (you know who you are, I am sure.)

I don't know why I keep reading this thread and getting upset, but I do..... My fault. But thanks K9 for trying.

Back to lurking.........
Thanks for the kind words, Doppelganger. I'm so sorry for what you had to go through.

I'm retired military, and a sad fact of life is serving in the military is a very risky thing to do as a women. You are far more likely to be raped by co-workers than injured by the enemy. I've never seen a case where a women coming forward about the attack was beneficial for the woman. Usually she will be pressured into recanting the accusation of rape, and if she does, then she can face charges of making a false accusation. And all that takes place at a time when she is in all likelihood suffering from PTSD and severe depression, and she probably doesn't have an advocate to help her get through the horrors of what happened to her and what the system will do to her to if she comes forward. The victim typically loses her job. The perpetrator typically stays in the military and continues to create more victims.

What I learned is that the leadership in any given regiment is where the Pte's and Cpl's take their cues from in regards to how they treat women. If the CO and RSM find violence against women unacceptable, the soldiers do not think it's OK to assault their female co-workers. But in cases where the leadership doesn't want women to be members of the military, it becomes open season on women soldiers. Rape and sexual harassment are easy ways to force women out of the military. I've seen rapists promoted, even after it was made very clear that they had assaulted a member of the regiment.

I think the leadership of the skeptical movement in many ways are advocating rape. Blaming the victim is part of that.
 
Well would it be OK to get someone drunk and then rob them!

Come on - if two people are going to have sex, they should both be sober enough to give consent - and to enjoy the occasion!

Just because someone is tricked doesn't make them 'dumb'

David

Could you please explain exactly what you mean by consent? It's beyond me. I really don't know. I've never had sex with someone who wasn't totally into it and I never would. Does lack of enthusiasm equal lack of consent?

It's impossible to get somebody drunk. I guess it's possible to offer encouragement.
Where I'm from people don't need encouragement to get drunk though. So this is also foreign to me.

I think we need to go through the sexual process from A to B to C so I can understand this stuff better. Would somebody please draft a scenario?
 
Many believe being drunk leads to sex assaults: Poll

By Kelly Roche, Ottawa Sun

An intoxicated woman invites sexual assault.


That's what one in five Canadians think, according to a new survey from the Canadian Women's Foundation released Tuesday.

Roughly 19% of respondents believe women may provoke or encourage sexual assault when they're drunk; of these, nearly 23% were people between 18 and 34 years old.

"I think it's really sad. We think we have these educated, progressive, open-minded young people, but we are really socializing them into the same attitudes that all the generations carry, so that's disappointing," said Concillia Muonde, the Sexual Assault Support Centre of Ottawa's public education co-ordinator.

Education remains key in shattering misconceptions and stereotypes, "using mechanisms that they understand and speaking in a language they understand to challenge the same attitudes that existed before they were born," Muonde said.

Those beliefs have been around since Sandra Diaz was 18 "and hearing this sort of attitude from my mom giving me a warning, you know, 'If you wear that dress, you'll get raped,' and thinking that was a very old-fashioned way of thinking," said Diaz, VP of marketing and communications at the Canadian Women's Foundation.

"And so, to hear that 18- to 34-year-olds still hold that attitude is so deeply concerning to us."


When “Drunk Sex” Clearly IS Rape, and More Thoughts on Alcohol and Consent

The bad news is, there isn’t one test to tell when someone is too intoxicated to consent to sex. (Well, maybe there is—one could make an argument about blood alcohol content perhaps, but college students don’t carry breathalyzers last time I checked so let’s move along). And so when we talk about alcohol and consent, it’s a conversation about open communication with your partner if they’ve been drinking—checking in with them, making sure they are enthusiastically, affirmatively consenting to whatever you’re doing together. Clearly people are sometimes going to get drunk and have sex. And the presence of alcohol in someone’s bloodstream does not automatically make it rape. But there’s a spectrum of intoxication. If someone is physically impaired by their drinking (or drug use), you can tell. They are getting sick, their body is limp, they’re not able to communicate clearly with you. It’s a common sense situation. If it’s less obvious, you know they have been drinking but you’re not sure how much and they seem OK, that’s where communication is key, and honestly—if it’s unclear how drunk your partner is and you feel conflicted, then maybe just play it safe and don’t do it. Instincts are there for a reason. You’ll have another chance to have sex, but sexual assault is permanent... [T]here is so much defensiveness about alcohol and consent, as though it’s a really really complicated thing. And ya know, I think that for people who are aren’t raised to think about sex as a shared experience in which two people are actively, positively participating, it can actually seem that complicated. But the reality is that it doesn’t have to be. Having sex with an incapacitated person should be widely understand (sic) as rape. Two drunk people having sex should be aware enough of the other person to have a sense of what is or isn’t consent because they’ve been raised to respect other people, and it’s second nature to them to check and make sure their partner is involved.

http://www.safercampus.org/blog/201...ape-and-more-thoughts-on-alcohol-and-consent/
 
Could you please explain exactly what you mean by consent? It's beyond me. I really don't know. I've never had sex with someone who wasn't totally into it and I never would. Does lack of enthusiasm equal lack of consent?

It's impossible to get somebody drunk. I guess it's possible to offer encouragement.
Where I'm from people don't need encouragement to get drunk though. So this is also foreign to me.

I think we need to go through the sexual process from A to B to C so I can understand this stuff better. Would somebody please draft a scenario?
Well I guess the point is that if you go to a conference, getting laid isn't normally top of your agenda! So if someone meets up with you and starts buying you drinks, maybe you start talking shop and don't instantly realise what the whole thing is about.

Lack of enthusiasm while very drunk probably would be lack of consent!

David
 
Well, to be fair, you did emphasize that the response to this situation was "don't get smashed", not "don't force sex when consent cannot be given". This certainly gives the impression that the onus is on the victim.

If there was more evidence than a he-said-she-said, and I'll read it if somebody finds it and posts it here, then we would have a big case for things that shouldn't be done and that the attacker should be prosecuted in an orderly fashion. Lacking solid evidence this is a rape case and not someone feeling regret in the morning, the strongest thing I can safely advise is not getting drunk in public. If requiring adequate relevance makes me a woman hating rapist in waiting, there's nothing I can do about that, though believe it or not I'm not one of the "arch-skeptics" and really don't care one way or the other about Shermer, I just don't believe everyone's claim at face value--especially when they are trying to get media attention about it. I would be appalled if they actually fired and condemned someone based on hearsay alone.

When “Drunk Sex” Clearly IS Rape, and More Thoughts on Alcohol and Consent

I agree with their premise--and I suspect they may be slightly misguided by appealing to common sense. People who are under the influence of drugs are not going to have common sense, and people who are themselves very drunk aren't going to have it either. I suspect this was written by a sober person idealizing; I've lived with alcoholics and most of them are completely incapable of even keeping consistency of basic rationality on simple matters. I have no idea what a drunk person's concept of common sense looks like to them, or have any idea if its actually possible to convince them of anything which is retained when they are so far in to the "mean drunk" spectrum that they will pick fights just because.
 
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