Will the veil be dropped in our lifetimes?

Personally my experiences of telepathy have been spontaneous and related to having a strong emotional bond with the other party. Laboratory experiments tend to bypass spontaneity by their nature, and though some experiments may test emotionally close subjects, that doesn't seem to be usual. Thus, having the most important pre-conditions ignored, it's hardly surprising that lab experiment in telepathy tend to give weak results.

As for brain activity, my view of this is that it would be necessary at the point when we attempt to communicate and share our experiences. I suspect it is at best a correlation, not a requirement.

It doesnt matter. Have you read Persinger's research? http://skeptiko.com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/ The distant brain shows the same activity as the person who's seeing the light. I really can't imagine how he can screw up such an easy experiment and have the brain activity be caused by some mundane hidden effect. So I believe the brains are sending information. Whatever the conclusion, this contradicts current neuroscience (but doesn't contradict materialism if you use Persinger's magnetic field explanation). It just shows neuroscience right now is wrong, just like its rejection of neuroplasticity a century ago.

After so many month of reading and youtube I've come to realize just how narrow minded neuroscience is, as compared with physics. EM drive gets a lot more attention when its obviously some hidden unforeseen effect, and the now debunked faster than light neutrino anomaly got plenty of papers trying to modify current physics, whereas all the evidence for telepathy gets completely ignored and insulted upon. Read in a blog debate a guy with experience of the field said how much fame you get in the field is directly proportional to how much you stick to the standard reductive materialist framework, even ignoring the materialist magnetic fields that Max_B is so fond of.
 
It doesnt matter. Have you read Persinger's research?
What doesn't matter? Anything I wrote?

Yes, I'm aware of Persinger's work. It doesn't inspire me precisely because it depends on first putting in place a physical link, it seems far removed from anything that I'd describe as telepathy. It is the attempt to re-define the word 'telepathy' to mean something completely different which is problematic. I'm sure we could demonstrate lots of other interesting phenomena if we first redefine the language to mean something else.
 
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KindaGamey you might like this idea that reality is a peer-to-peer simulation akin to a game of Halo.

I think this is the perfect functional explanation for any reality that has consciousness as a co-creator in the next moment of reality.

Ooh yes! Especially since all we know and can know is subjective and we are all building our own universes on the inside. (From that 'Beyond the light barrier' book: I THINK THEREFORE I AM THOUGHT - Descartes corrected.) And in the cases of the paranormal it makes sense that these objects that are larger than our dimension require much more extrapolation and interpretation than objects which are more localized and 'normal'. (e.g. seeing a higher dimensional being as a 60's robot or angel or turnip-man or jesus or buddha or grey alien or owl.)

I haven't read the paper yet (and I might not be capable of fully understanding it? lol I stretch my brain, but I know my limits), but the theory must incorporate the holographic principle as well? (Each piece contains the whole; cut the number of pieces in half and you decrease the 'resolution' of the hologram by half. Not to say that culling humanity would destroy the universe -- every particle is a witness and the protagonist of its own story.)

I've wondered for a while now if the story of God giving us his son as a sacrifice (with the son also being God), is that symbolism for God (the system/whole/consciousness) having to give up omnipotence and omniscience in order to give each particle free will? It's like the ultimate gift. I will "die" from a hierarchical top-down perspective so that you all have the same power of creation as I do and may create from a bottom-up perspective. It is also "dying for your sins" in the perspective that God's death allows you the capacity to sin, or be good, to be one with the whole or set yourself apart, or do whatever. It's your show now. Increase novelty, head-nod to Terence McKenna.


Honestly, something I've been trying to think about to present to you guys is programming related: in direct contrast to the depressing "random robots in a meaningless universe" paradigm that capitalism has been spreading with giddy glee like a malicious spoiler at a Harry Potter convention.

I already mentioned The Tipping Point in this thread. One of the other things he says is that humans as individuals tend to be pretty wrong. e.g. If I asked everyone here what the average height of a redwood tree is. However, if I mapped all of those answers it makes a shotgun blast around the correct answer, meaning that if humanity put its collective minds together we can come up with right answers. There are other sites out there doing this kind of thing, like one site where some scientists set up a type of game where people can try and create new stable chemical chains or something? Using humanity collectively is like using a quantum computer. I think SETI was using people's individual computers (when idle in screen saver mode) as a type of cloud computer to go through the tremendous amounts of data that they get to try and find an intelligent signal. There are kids on twitch.tv who use a program that collects commands from the chat window and allows huge groups of people to collectively beat a video game like Pokemon.

A.I. is having tremendous problems and doesn't seem to be as smart as we hoped it would be. Humans are also better suited at some functions (e.g. pathfinding) than are the brute force methods of computers. What if we built an intelligence engine where the intelligence was US? If you've ever heard of pseudo-code it is basically instructions in English - hey, we know English! We can follow instructions! We can even re-write our own code!

Pseudocode Example

1.. If student's grade is greater than or equal to 60
Print "passed"
else
Print "failed"

2. Set total to zero
Set grade counter to one
While grade counter is less than or equal to ten
Input the next grade
Add the grade into the total
Set the class average to the total divided by ten
Print the class average.

-- I mean, maybe this is the economy of the future? Instead of people working in meaningless jobs they could not only power the intelligence engine that can replace capitalism and create solutions to problems that we need and want, but we could also continue to re-write and hone the humanOS (operating system) itself and forge the futures we want to see using a system as transparent as possible? Whew!

I always thought it could be like a pay-to-play system. You have to 'do work' for the system and put in some time carrying out instructions in order to be able to play and make requests of the system. (e.g. You 'process' lines in the system by reading 5 or so commands and carrying out a function for each, then in turn you get to ask the great DEEP THOUGHT something like, "should i date jimmy or bob? they both asked me out for saturday and like, jimmy is really hot but mean and bob isn't as good looking but he's really nice." Or something as heavy as, "there are 14 potholes on my street, in order to generate the solution we need 'tarmac', a safety inspector, 12 traffic cones, a truck, and 4-5 workmen..." and the great group mind hashes out the details, gathers the materials, ranks the priorities, and carries out the function in the real world!) It would be like if we had to generate some content before being able to casually view our facebook feeds. Tit for tat. You could also have a 'hidden-hand' where people's judgment could be privately reviewed and good judges in whatever fields could move further and further up the chain. e.g. if Marybeth is an expert on protecting bird habitats all the bird watchers who care and trust her could sacrifice a tiny bit of their own voting power and empower her to be a super-voter with the ability to make decisions for the group who rely on her judgment, but if she went mad with power they could just as easily pull that support away (completely unlike empowering and then being stuck with a senator for two years.) We certainly don't want a tyranny of democracy or forcing everyone to make decisions on minutiae they couldn't care less about. But surely somebody out there cares about that sort of thing, let them handle it! We need to capitalize on the wide swath of talents and interests we all have.

How would it generate enough income to keep functioning? Let that be one of it's first problems to solve. Minimum impact on the number of the user-base, but maximizing survivability of the system.

There's a book called 'Metaphors We Live By' (<- clickable) that has always stuck with me. I find it amazing how in the land of metaphor the differences between physical objects and ideas doesn't exist - everything is equal/fair game.

I have another idea (or is it the same idea?) about mapping meaning. Like, the materialists say that nothing has meaning when the exact opposite is true - everything is BRIMMING with meaning!

Let's say we had a system whereby I could map a location in idea-space... e.g. a tree (contains/is near) bark, leaves, green, brown, nature, etc.
I could group all trees with the concept of forest. I could relate the Marvel movie Age of Ultron with man's fear of technology getting from with us. I could map fear of people becoming brain-dead cell-phone-staring zombies with consumerism and The Walking Dead series. And then someone could take those two larger concepts and group them, both being a fear of the death of individuality, or something like that. And so on and so on up the chain we would go where the most numerous of linked objects would sink to the bottom and the larger and larger concepts would float to the top. Could we find the ultimate meaning? Are there concepts that transcend materials and ideas that are paralleled in physics, in our own minds, in our films, in our religions?


Something about positive and negative, duality, something about repelling and attractive forces? I don't know. I want to build it. I want to know! And I want us to escape from consumerism and capitalism and materialism and not having control over our own futures. We can empower the human organism to re-build itself. We're already moving in that direction if you can step back and see it.
 
Math showing how it could be anything other than self interest or a predetermined script....

Here's the math explanation for self interest:

variables cannot be filled with two different constants at the same time

X = 1 = 2 is irrational since 1 does not equal 2.

...

Unless someone can mathematically prove how it could be both restrictive AND objective without existing inside a subjective framework. The only thing that can do that is absolute nothingness.


This is a fascinating question. Maths does in fact exist, I believe, that answers it.

A more foundational question that may shed light on the first is to ask: 'what IS identity? What does it mean for two things to be the same, or not the same?'

In the world of psi and NDEs, identity appears to be quite fluid. Spirit communicators talk about 'group souls' and mediums and remote viewers often experience a sense of being identified with a remote subject. People remember 'past lives' of a different person but which seem to 'be them'. This fuzziness about identity also seems to be the case in sociology and biology. Where exactly is the 'edge' of a human body? Is it our skin? Our gut flora? The air we breathe? The biome we inhabit? Is there in fact a hard boundary to identity? Can identity be shared?

Quite a few people have come to the same answer: that *existence of entities can overlap*. Investigating this does bring some interesting mathematical and logical insights.

One is Thomas Etter, who wrote a few papers before his death in 2012 on the subject of 'Three-Place Identity'. He's not the only person to write on this, but he has some mathematical rigor and uses it as an approach to rethinking set theory.

The Boundary Institute website where Tom's papers were hosted has gone offline but is archived. Here are some of them:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060207134429/http://www.boundaryinstitute.org:80/theoretical.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/2013051...tute.org/bi/articles/Three-place_Identity.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/2013051...ute.org/bi/articles/Membership_&_Identity.pdf

Etter's essential idea is that identity is a three-place, not a two-place predicate. Eg, not 'A=B' but 'A=B <in sense C>'. In other words, we have to ask 'in what way are A and B identified' before we can ask 'are they'?

Something similar arises in the subtyping problem in computer science type theory and object oriented programming. Eg, the Liskov Substitutability Principle. It's not enough to ask 'is type A identified with type B' - you have to ask 'for what purpose C'?

Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics, though flawed, took a similar idea about identity and ran with it.

The idea recurs in many other places. Another approach to the subject is to think about the mathematical concept of 'relation'.

It seems that we can deconstruct any structured object (physical or data) into not just its components but *the relationships between those components*. Ie: we start to see that *existence itself is relationship*. A bicycle is not just two wheels, handlebars and a frame... but a certain spatial and force-field *relationship* between those components. Without the relationship, the existence of the bicycle disappears. We can then recursively examine each of its components and find the same situation: the relationship between the atoms, or even the subatomic constituents of the atoms, now appears to be *all there is*. The relationship is at least as real as its components; perhaps more real, because (if for instance there were only waves and not particles) perhaps there *are* no actual components which are not relationship.

Then if we look outward from the bicycle, we find the same thing. For the bicycle to 'exist' for us it means *to exist now, here, in this physical place*. So it is the *relationship between the bicycle and its parts, and between the bicycle and its environment* which constitutes its existence. A bicycle in an utterly Platonic void, unconnected from everything else would not only be non physically existent, it would be literally *unthinkable*. To exist even in imagination, it must consist of at least *something being imagined*.

Existence then, like identification, seems to be *nothing but* relationship. So complete separation (lack of identification) between two objects seems to be impossible.


Following this line of thinking, not only does mathematics become clearer but so too does psi and the messages that spirit communicators bring.

For me, it also clarifies, for example, the Golden Rule. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' becomes '... for by doing to others you ARE doing to yourself'. Because no two beings are completely separate, or they would have no existence in each other's universe at all.

Regards, Nate
 
For me, it also clarifies, for example, the Golden Rule. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' becomes '... for by doing to others you ARE doing to yourself'. Because no two beings are completely separate, or they would have no existence in each other's universe at all.
That's an important idea - the idea that there is no separation also means that for example an interaction between two people also affects the whole, it impacts others too.
 
Trees is closer to bees in spelling, trees is closer to branches in
One is Thomas Etter, who wrote a few papers before his death in 2012 on the subject of 'Three-Place Identity'. He's not the only person to write on this, but he has some mathematical rigor and uses it as an approach to rethinking set theory.

The Boundary Institute website where Tom's papers were hosted has gone offline but is archived. Here are some of them:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060207134429/http://www.boundaryinstitute.org:80/theoretical.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/2013051...tute.org/bi/articles/Three-place_Identity.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/2013051...ute.org/bi/articles/Membership_&_Identity.pdf

Etter's essential idea is that identity is a three-place, not a two-place predicate. Eg, not 'A=B' but 'A=B <in sense C>'. In other words, we have to ask 'in what way are A and B identified' before we can ask 'are they'?

Something similar arises in the subtyping problem in computer science type theory and object oriented programming. Eg, the Liskov Substitutability Principle. It's not enough to ask 'is type A identified with type B' - you have to ask 'for what purpose C'?

Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics, though flawed, took a similar idea about identity and ran with it.

The idea recurs in many other places. Another approach to the subject is to think about the mathematical concept of 'relation'.

It seems that we can deconstruct any structured object (physical or data) into not just its components but *the relationships between those components*. Ie: we start to see that *existence itself is relationship*. A bicycle is not just two wheels, handlebars and a frame... but a certain spatial and force-field *relationship* between those components. Without the relationship, the existence of the bicycle disappears. We can then recursively examine each of its components and find the same situation: the relationship between the atoms, or even the subatomic constituents of the atoms, now appears to be *all there is*. The relationship is at least as real as its components; perhaps more real, because (if for instance there were only waves and not particles) perhaps there *are* no actual components which are not relationship.

Then if we look outward from the bicycle, we find the same thing. For the bicycle to 'exist' for us it means *to exist now, here, in this physical place*. So it is the *relationship between the bicycle and its parts, and between the bicycle and its environment* which constitutes its existence. A bicycle in an utterly Platonic void, unconnected from everything else would not only be non physically existent, it would be literally *unthinkable*. To exist even in imagination, it must consist of at least *something being imagined*.

Existence then, like identification, seems to be *nothing but* relationship. So complete separation (lack of identification) between two objects seems to be impossible.

Ooh, another piece of the puzzle. Thanks, this is great!

Tree is related to branch and leaf in sense Components, but Tree is related to Free in sense Spelling.

I try and think of a relational map that could have as many dimensions as it has elements. These 'in sense' identifiers can also be elements in themselves -- Components related to "Comprised of" in sense meaning. Which means that Tree is related to branch and leaf in sense comprised of.
 
For me, it also clarifies, for example, the Golden Rule. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' becomes '... for by doing to others you ARE doing to yourself'. Because no two beings are completely separate, or they would have no existence in each other's universe at all.

Regards, Nate
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" should not be employed by masochists! ;)
 
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