Arouet
Member
Lol, he looked just like my daughter when she has to take medicine! :)
The Donald Trump Thread
- Thread starter Michael2
- Start date
Where did I say that then?
Nope, if someone has recently had their wife murdered and it's become national news, you give that person a break, even if you disagree with their politics. At the very least you disagree politely, without saying the referendum was won 'without any shots being fired' or calling the widower a 'supporter of extremism'. Maybe decency is lost on you?
1) To get rid of the rebate we would have had to agree to get rid of it! The rebates been around since Thatcher was in power. That's not the real point David - just accept 'your side' lied. If the real figure is so big why not just say that instead of lying? You seem to be doing everything you can to distract from the fact that one side of the referendum outright lied about many things, this being one of them. They also kept banging on about Turkey apparently being about to join any minute now - failing to mention that we could just veto it and stop them joining.
2) Haven't got anything else to add on the Syria issue, still going to admit that I know nothing.
3) You missed out all the vital context that would show Farage for the nasty man he is. Why didn't you quote the bit where he said that Brendan Cox was a 'supporter of extremism'? I already mentioned that he previously said that the EU referendum was won 'without any shots being fired'. You all do your side a disservice when you fail to condemn Farage, as Red also has. If anyone else had done it I wonder what you would say?
You're trying too hard here. Anybody reasonable can see that having someone from Goldman Sachs in your term and a cabinet of billionaires is not 'draining the swamp'.
Same with the anti-establishment thing. If you have been very close friends with the Clinton family as Trump has,and you're a billionaire with reality TV shows etc - you are not in any way 'anti-establishment'.
David Bailey
Member
If someone wrote a piece about the chief executive of Coco Cola (say) getting an obscene salary of £ X Million, would you really expect someone to come along and say, "This is a lie - we must subtract the income tax!" The headline rate was and is £350 a week, and yes, various things can be subtracted from that figure. If we had quoted the figure with all the subtractions, people would likely have assumed that it was the gross figure - you can't win (except that we did).
As regards Turkey, they were in negotiations with the EU to join, which would have meant that as members of the EU, Turks could then move to Britain. Why exactly were we not supposed to point that out?
OK - anyone in the public eye can suffer at the hands of maniacs. Think for a moment of Norman Tebbit, he went with his wife to a party conference and they were there when an IRA bomb went off. His wife has been permanently disabled as a result. Everyone felt enormous sympathy for Norman Tebbit and his wife for what had happened, just as everyone felt sympathy for the family of Jo Cox, but fortunately Norman Tebbit had the good sense not to try to make political capital out of what had happened. Likewise, people don't blame the whole Liberal party because it turns out that one of their MP's was a prolific paedophile. Brendon Cox, should have confined himself to personal comments, and then everyone, including Nigel Farage would have been completely sympathetic.
The remark about no shots being fired was perhaps slightly unfortunate, but Nigel was comparing the Brexit revolution with other revolutions in history. Do you honestly think anyone in UKIP was wanting an MP to be shot, or rejoiced when she was? Yes she was shot, but it wasn't part of Brexit!
David
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1) David, it was a lie, the figure is not true as that amount of money does not leave the UK at any stage. Your comparison with income tax is false - the £350 million figure was a lie.
2) Your comment on Turkey shows your lack of knowledge on this subject. Turkey are still years away from being able to join the EU and the UK could veto them joining anyway. Turkey joining the EU couldn't have been forced on us if we didn't want it to be. It was blatant scaremongering.
3) I think you're being very judgemental of a man who's wife was murdered in cold blood. I don't exactly see how he's making 'political capital' out of it - that's what her murdered did. He made it political. I'm sure Brendan Cox would like to still have his wife around. It's a disgrace that you continue to defend Farage, give it a break, he is a nasty guy and we all know that what he said about Brendan Cox was completely out of line.
4) We all know what Farage was doing when he made that comment, he knew what he was doing. It's ridiculous that you're defending him so much.
You and many other Brexiteers I've spoken to seem incapable of condemning the official leave campaign and Nigel Farage. It's possible to be pro leave without defending those things.
S
Sciborg_S_Patel
Changed my mind for now - recession or no Trump will win in 2020.
Why? Terrorism.
Why? Terrorism.
Jim_Smith
New
I recommend this blog. It's articles on free trade are of particular interest now that Trump will be taking office...
http://www.aei.org/publication/blog/channel/carpe-diem
"Mark J. Perry is concurrently a scholar at AEI and a professor of economics and finance at the University of Michigan's Flint campus. "
This is good too...
http://cafehayek.com/
http://www.aei.org/publication/blog/channel/carpe-diem
"Mark J. Perry is concurrently a scholar at AEI and a professor of economics and finance at the University of Michigan's Flint campus. "
This is good too...
http://cafehayek.com/
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David Bailey
Member
I am not backing down on any of my replies. To take just one. The Brexit vote was described as a once in a generation chance to opt out, that means that voters and campaigners were right to look years ahead to a day when the negotiations with Turkey were complete.
Why don't we let it go at this point?
David
You're not backing down on the behaviour of Nigel Farage? That's very sad, your political beliefs are now making you unable to call out bad behaviour if it's done by someone with similar views to you. Same with the Leave campaign - you're basically endorsing the view that if a campaign thinks what you do then you won't condemn or criticise them.
Notice I haven't said that the result should be overturned, but I don't think political campaigns should be able to lie to people. I would think that would be something anyone could agree with - apparently I was wrong on that point.
David Bailey
Member
Nigel has been given an absolutely horrible time by the press. He says - and I believe him - that he has had death threats for years. Almost every time he is interviewed, the reporter will try to inject some kind of venom into the conversation, which he handles in an amazingly calm way.
What has this man done to deserve this?
1) He expresses what many felt, that our democracy is being seriously eroded by membership of the common market.
2) He expresses concern at the scale of immigration. We used to have an immigration policy (i.e. we controlled who came (and in what numbers) to this country), and he advocates exactly this - something that our parents' generation took for granted (were they all racists back then?).
3) He expresses concern about the drift towards confrontation with Russia, that is an existential threat to us all.
4) He and UKIP are very suspicious of economic policies that seem to make the majority worse off.
5) He is aware that the UK is likely to run out of electricity fairly soon because of a totally misconceived 'green' energy policy.
6) He realises that PC speech has been an effective way of muzzling people. By stopping people asking pointed questions, daft policies can continue unchecked.
7) He supports President-elect Trump because he seems to have similar views.
For those views, he has been hounded and vilified - a trend you obviously think should be continued.
UKIP members all experience this vilification in miniature. There are people I know who recoiled in horror when I said I had joined UKIP. They didn't try to discuss UKIP policies with me (or even explain what exactly they disliked about UKIP), they just reacted in a herd way (cynically programmed in by propaganda) - as I suppose many Germans did when they encountered Jews. The BBC has described UKIP as a party of old, uneducated white men - a remarkably offensive, age-ist , racist, and sexist description!
When most of the media vilify those holding different opinions on important subjects, we are in in danger of becoming a one-party state.
As regards the charge of lying, I suppose you have ignored the regular messages of doom that came from the other side in the Brexit debate - the emergency punishment budget, and the threat that Brexit might trigger a nuclear war, etc, etc. The 'remain' side lied so much they became a joke!
David
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Steve
Member
While I'm not a particular fan of Farage or UKIP, David is right. Farage is not as bad as the media would have you believe imo. It's all false perceptions, perceptions that we as individuals lap up - when they suit us!
Red
New
Malf, is this New Statesman article meant to show how Ukip members are bigots, or how the left media twists things to make it look they are?
David Bailey
Member
Well facts are a bit thin on the ground in that piece, but take for example:
I suppose you can twist anything the wrong way if you try. UKIP wanted to keep ex-BNP members out of the party, partly because some people seem to move from party to party. This is a problem the Labour Party possibly doesn't really want to acknowledge:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jun/14/localgovernment.politics
David
Kamarling
Member
We have been over this before and you still seem entrenched, David. Just ask yourself why UKIP attracts BNP members. I suspect it is for different reasons than the attraction of the Labour party. The latter has traditionally represented the working classes and working class people may feel at home with them because of that. The fact that some of them are also attracted to the BNP is incidental - I really doubt whether Labour's immigration policies are what attracts BNP supporters to the party.
You can't say the same of UKIP because the backbone of their politics is based upon restricting immigration. Can't you see that it is the immigration policy which attracts BNP members like my uncle we discussed in an earlier post? The same uncle who voted Labour in General elections and BNP in Local elections and who now votes UKIP in both. The letters B N P stand for British National Party. The letters U K I P stand for United Kingdom Independence Party. Both are nationalistic and anti-immigration. Are you nationalistic an anti-immigration, David?
David Bailey
Member
I suspect the truth is that there are some weird people about. I am actually surprised the other parties don't exclude former members of the extreme right parties as UKIP does. I should add, that we don't have any way to enforce the ban.
Yes, but that is no more than all governments did in the fifties and sixties. Was everyone racist back then?
I think people have legitimate concerns about immigration. It is a very modern idea that immigration limits should be effectively abolished.
I suspect a lot of people only supported the BNP because there was no other party that would touch the subject.
However, the Tories and Labour used to argue at election time about which side could cut immigration more effectively!
I think excessive immigration is very undesirable. It leads to a fragmented country with no common values. How can a child who is taught that homosexuality is a sin, and that women should not show their face in public, grow up to feel part of Britain?
We need to do a hell of a lot of work to integrate those people that are already here, if we ever want to stop forced marriages, FGM, etc etc. The Left like to use name calling to shut people up, but name calling doesn't actually deal with the real problems building up in Britain.
Please note that the BNP want to force British citizens to leave the UK, and have traditionally had a very thuggish element.
David