Conspiracy Theories

It does make some sense to me that there's some "force" that can be channeled and used, and that some people know how to use it more than others. This would certainly explain, if the rumors/”conspiracies” are to be believed, why the leaders of the world (or their priests/surrogates) allegedly gather to engage in ritualistic behaviors during certain days of the year (solstices, equinoxes, cross quarter holy days, certain numerical days, etc.) to achieve certain worldly gains or to set in motion a future they desire (as S.K. Bain's book suggests was done for 9/11). But this raises all sorts of questions for me.


1. Who created this "force" from which to draw our majick? Is it a "gift" (or curse) from higher beings/Source? A morphogenic field created by the collective consciousness of all living beings from which we can all draw energy? Or is this the amoral energetic force that created the entire Universe (Ein Sof)? If this force was THE creator of everything, seems like good/bad value-judgments were made at some level --before human beings were around to channel anything -- since we live in a world where living beings must kill/consume other beings to survive. (or is it that we can live on the energy of the "force" itself if we only learn how?) I'm just musing here, but it seems to me that in all theories of the metaphysical (and the material), including the existence of "majick," that we still need one good miracle to explain the origins.


2. Who explained how "majick" worked to those who know how to wield it? Was it some ancient group who discovered through trial and error that if they put their minds together and sacrificed a goat (or a human) or two that their desires would manifest in the material world? And once they realized it worked, did they try to keep it from everyone else since if everyone knew how to wield majick there wouldn't be such a power imbalance/oppressive hierarchical structure? Do you believe that there are groups who have passed this knowledge down to others, but have intentionally kept it from most?


3. Why does "sacrifice" seem to be required for majick to work if the force is simply amoral and available to all? In other words, if majick is essentially bringing thoughts/ideas into manifestation, and ritual is a way simply to focus thoughts -- why have those who currently use "majick" for evil allegedly used human/animal sacrifices in order to propel their thoughts into manifestation? Is this to appease some evil entity? Is it simply a way to ensure secrecy among its members? Or does the sacrifice actually cause the Majick to work? And if that's the way it actually works, what can those who are trying to channel the force for good do to equally channel/manifest their thoughts without such sacrifice?


4. I can see how majick works on an individual level: idea/thoughts + plan + action = manifestation of a thought/desire into the physical plane. But it would seem that powerful world-changing group magick would require a highly focused common goal/ideal to bring that thought into manifestation. Given this, I can see how groups using the creative amoral force for Evil have a clear advantage: they seem to have a much more congealed/collective idea of what they want the physical world to be than those (good?) magicians who are trying to reject/recast that manifestation and essentially playing defense.
 
But this raises all sorts of questions for me.
Aren't even asking the questions you raised contingent on having (affirming) answers to the following?

Does this "force" actually exist? Is there evidence for this force? Can it be scientifically observed/tested?

If such a force does exists, is there evidence that powerful, world leaders are using it to "achieve worldly gains, etc."?
 
Aren't even asking the questions you raised contingent on having (affirming) answers to the following?

Does this "force" actually exist? Is there evidence for this force? Can it be scientifically observed/tested?

If such a force does exists, is there evidence that powerful, world leaders are using it to "achieve worldly gains, etc."?

Well, I think one can ask the questions I asked without having the answers to the other questions you pose, though of course I'd welcome answers to your questions as well. With respect to your first line of questions, I don't think anyone has yet been able to prove that God/Source/Force actually exists -- or to provide sufficient evidence of its existence or its nature that would satisfy everyone. Isn't that why many of us are here discussing possible theories of how the world (above and below) might work?

Personally, I have no idea if an amoral energetic "force" exists (or God/Source in some other claimed form exists) as I lack direct experience with either. I'm not a majick practitioner so have not tested the theory myself by performing the rituals/making the necessary sacrifice/energizing action, but I have read about those who claim it exists -- and who claim to have used it to manifest certain thoughts into the physical plane. I believe there's a thread here on Skeptiko by one well-known member who is trying to share his (her?) experiences with it....perhaps he/she has much more advanced thoughts on the matter than I do? Or perhaps he/she has direct evidence of it working? I haven't worked my way to that thread yet, but will.

As for the "evidence" of powerful world leaders using majick/ritualistic practices to achieve worldly gains, I certainly don't have first-hand direct experience or knowledge of that, or even a firm position on whether or not it actually occurs. I'm just reading various books and trying to make sense of this crazy world. I mentioned S.K. Bain's book on 9/11 as an occult ritual already, and Peter Levenda writes a lot about the occult and about certain "sinister forces" trying to steer human events/activity, and I think both authors raise interesting and disturbing possibilities that I want to explore further. It's been difficult to find other authors writing about this kind of stuff who don't have an obvious quack/religious (e.g., Christian fundamentalist) agenda, but I found the S.K. Bain book interesting and Levenda can be ok (he's not the best writer, IMO, but doesn't seem overtly religious).

Unfortunately, without an actual invitation to witness a high occult ritual a la Eyes Wide Shut (and I wouldn't want one!), I am not sure any outsider will be able to provide sufficient direct evidence of high level occult practices to satisfy those who scoff at such ridiculous sounding "conspiracies." But at some point, there may be enough circumstantial "evidence" of weirdness that it might give one pause (of course, there are alleged survivors of these rituals who have already written books -- it's just whether or not you choose to believe them).

I don't have any good answers, but I personally have reached a point in my research where I am open to there being some metaphysical influence on world events. And since the world seems so unnecessarily horrific to me in many ways, if there IS a metaphysical force, and it is comprised of both good/evil, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to me that the dark metaphysical force(s) would work through or be channeled by high level human entities who have chosen to live by the Left Handed Path.

No hard core "beliefs" either way, just hoping to explore the terrain with others.
 
Appreciate the response. Thoughtful and rational to my read. Again, much appreciated.

While not directed to you as a response, in general I struggle with the seeming ease with which folks here at Skeptiko look to the conspiratorial. I am, like you, unaware of whether these forces exist, if they do how they are used by others, etc. However, the conspiratorial dark side seems almost a self-sustaining black hole. After all, there are always reasons why evidence isn't available as the conspirators would take great care to cover their tracks, etc. Well, how about the (non-conspiratorial?) light side (if you will).

Presuming these forces exist and folks can use such forces (e.g., majick, etc.) for good purposes, why is there no broad awareness of such? The hiding in plain sight thing seems hard to square. As was discussed in the telekinesis thread: Wouldn't there be a few folks eager to put their abilities to rigorous scientific testing?
 
Presuming these forces exist and folks can use such forces (e.g., majick, etc.) for good purposes, why is there no broad awareness of such? The hiding in plain sight thing seems hard to square. As was discussed in the telekinesis thread: Wouldn't there be a few folks eager to put their abilities to rigorous scientific testing?

Dean Radin recounts the cases of two 'Breatharians' who have survived for a long period of time without food, and sometimes without liquids. Two were tested in medical facilities for weeks on end, and neither was found to cheat, but the cases were never published in the literature. Dean Comments:
Perhaps the most curious aspect of the breatharian tests is the in-your-face nature of the claimed phenomenon and yet an almost complete lack of interest from the scientific community. If it is possible to live well without eating food, this ought to be easy to demonstrate, and if it held up, the scientific and social consequences would be astounding.

One explanation for the startling lack of interest is that most mainstream scientists and medical researchers regard this claim as so unlikely that they don’t want to waste their time with it. Another is that those who studied the phenomenon may have actually discovered positive results, but they know how science reacts to “impossible” claims. So it’s just safer to let positive studies quietly fade away.
A third interpretation is that the Jani and Werner studies actually found nothing out of the ordinary. In that case we might have expected both the Indian and the Swiss hospital teams to be happy to publish their negative findings, because that would only increase their perceived competence in the eyes of the mainstream. But that hasn’t happened either.

Radin, Dean. Supernormal: Science, Yoga, and the Evidence for Extraordinary Psychic Abilities (p. 127).
Somehow scientists feel so uncomfortable with such data that they forego the opportunity to write up the discover of the millennium! There could be a lot of phenomena hiding plain sight!

David
 
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Somehow scientists feel so uncomfortable with such data that they forego the opportunity to write up the discover of the millennium! There could be a lot of phenomena hiding plain sight!
I hear you. Seems equally reasonable that some scientists would jump at the chance to have their names associated with such paradigm shifting science.

We seem to have to hand wave a lot ourselves.
 
I hear you. Seems equally reasonable that some scientists would jump at the chance to have their names associated with such paradigm shifting science.
I think you miss Dean Radin's point. If the tests were not successful, they would logically have published. After all, one of the tests was performed in an intensive care unit - how much must that have cost?

The only interpretation seems to be that no fakery was detected, but they didn't want to publish the sensational result!

David
 
Aren't even asking the questions you raised contingent on having (affirming) answers to the following?

Does this "force" actually exist? Is there evidence for this force? Can it be scientifically observed/tested?

If such a force does exists, is there evidence that powerful, world leaders are using it to "achieve worldly gains, etc."?

What force are you talking about? Energy? Energy has been proven
 
Magick rituals can be anything, it can be similar to what you seen in eyes wide shut, or it can be as simple as banging a drum or lighting incense and meditating, it can be anything you want really. You can invoke the show you love and gratitude to mother earth, the air, emotion, your ancestors, etc. It doesn't have to be dark like hollywood portrays. A ritual can be as simple as the wind blowing off negative energy and vibes off you when the wind hit you

As for harnessing energy, its real and I can't go any further. There are thousands of occult books get started
 
I think you miss Dean Radin's point. If the tests were not successful, they would logically have published. After all, one of the tests was performed in an intensive care unit - how much must that have cost?

The only interpretation seems to be that no fakery was detected, but they didn't want to publish the sensational result!

David
I understand the point he's attempting to make. However I do not see his three potential explanations as exhaustive.

The general hand wave here where by no scientist is willing to advance science out of fear of ridicule, cessation of funding , etc does not seem to fully explain away things. At least for me. Seems there are too many Mavericks in life to believe there wouldn't be any in science. Again, just my view here.
 
Appreciate the response. Thoughtful and rational to my read. Again, much appreciated.

While not directed to you as a response, in general I struggle with the seeming ease with which folks here at Skeptiko look to the conspiratorial. I am, like you, unaware of whether these forces exist, if they do how they are used by others, etc. However, the conspiratorial dark side seems almost a self-sustaining black hole. After all, there are always reasons why evidence isn't available as the conspirators would take great care to cover their tracks, etc. Well, how about the (non-conspiratorial?) light side (if you will).

Presuming these forces exist and folks can use such forces (e.g., majick, etc.) for good purposes, why is there no broad awareness of such? The hiding in plain sight thing seems hard to square. As was discussed in the telekinesis thread: Wouldn't there be a few folks eager to put their abilities to rigorous scientific testing?

I haven't been here long enough to understand the Skeptiko forum vibe or why you think some folks here are quick to look to the conspiratorial. All I can do is speak for myself in saying that I was a "normal," educated professional before 9/11 Truth cracked open my skull and changed my entire worldview. It takes a while to dial it back and not see a dark conspiracy in every over-publicized tragic event after that, particularly when some of the same villains are involved, and particularly when you've come to the (very belated) realization that the media is engaged in high level propaganda and social engineering, not investigative journalism. It's much harder to take a "news" story or event at face value when you have lost all faith in those who are pushing the official narratives. Yep. It's a black hole.

And I think at some point you do have to dial it back. First, because you'll quickly discover that most of your friends/family don't want to believe your claims of conspiracy anyway, are tired of listening to you even if they do believe you (the "so what?" crowd), and are largely uninterested in doing the same research you did to get to where you are. You also quickly realize that there's very little you can do to stop these malevolent forces, whether they're earthly or unearthly, other than perhaps on a local scale (or perhaps, hopefully, at a metaphysical level?). Finally, the "conspiracy" arena is so full of BS artists, disinformants, true crazies, and useful idiots, that I think most "normal" people who just want Truth just give up and join their comfort zone tribe again -- at least in public. In any event, I sure wish my paradigm-changing event had been an angelic being of light coming down from above telling me about the primacy of love and the continuation of consciousness, but that's just not what I got.

As for your question about why the "good forces" aren't out there publicly teaching us all about using majick for good, I'm going to have to speculate conspiratorially :) Of course it's been said that there are occult groups for good out there too (I hope so!), but that they also must hold the information close (to be given only to initiates) because it could fall into the wrong hands -- and be used for malevolent purposes. I can sort of buy this argument by likening it to free energy. If we all knew how to harness the energy of the planet freely, maybe most of us would put it to beneficial uses -- but clearly there are some who would use it for more nefarious ones? Others say that the information IS already out there for the public and only requires serious interest and dedicated practice. And there's also the possibility that there are quite a few scientists who are studying psi/ritualistic majick/etc. but that their results, especially when positive, are not for public consumption.

I don't really know, but I like exploring the possibilities for now.
 
People who practice Magick are normal people like you me and everyone else on the board. Regardless of the practice, we all deal with challenges and problems in life. Just because you practice Magick doesn't mean you are on a higher or lower moral ground than anyone else. A part of Magick is about developing your own life philosophy, there is no dogma (well very little compared to religion). The thing with Magick is that its potentially dangerous, imagine a rookie trying to fly an aircraft in a storm with a week of training. Harnessing energy is dangerous, things can implode without proper guidance, training and filters and defenses. This is a workout for your spirit/energy, you don't want to blow a fuse or potentially let in bad entities/spirits/dark aspects of your subsconscious (same difference) in to your field. It can wreck havoc and be detrimental. What people generally seem to overlook is EGO, there is a lot of EGO and power hungry people who practice magick, for whatever reason....also you have power hungry and EGOTISTICAL people in the new age fluff communities as well, I have experienced it many times, they are either trying to get a buck or mold people in to their way of thinking and beliefs. Be open minded, being skeptical and use discernment, record and date everything, and keep a dream journal. In my journey I have experienced PSI, Pre-Cog, Lucid Dream and TK. As for an afterlife? Well that's a part of the reason I'm here, but I really like this board lots of people much smarter then me who I can learn from on this type of fringe topics, be safe my friends, have a good night
 
...in general I struggle with the seeming ease with which folks here at Skeptiko look to the conspiratorial.

That's probably because you're a decent honest human being and it is hard to imagine so many others (esp. those at the top of the hierarchy) being so radically different from yourself. I think only after a decent honest person has the experience of getting thoroughly screwed can they begin to imagine how the world of power works.

For many people such as myself, 9/11 provided such an experience. For others, simply recognizing that Psi is real and the establishment conspires to paper over this fact will do it.

However, the conspiratorial dark side seems almost a self-sustaining black hole.

This is true; however, there is hope. The average person can't master enough knowledge or have access to all the information necessary to confirm every conspiracy theory, so people need an "establishment" of agreed to facts about the way the world works in order to stand on something. A lot of people are reeling from the loss of the old establishment and are questioning even basic well-established knowledge. Right now the old hierarchical establishment is being demolished and a new networked crowd-sourced establishment is being built. This new establishment will become the dominant establishment (provided the internet remains free and the lights don't go out). Some of the cornerstones of this new establishment worldview are: 9/11 was to a certain extent a fraud and is a Rosetta Stone to understand the way the world really works, the deep state is real, false flag ops and propaganda are SOP, we live under an international financial tyranny that controls the media and generates wars for profit, and Nihilistic Materialism makes an easily controlled consumer, and religion is an easily controlled opiate to the masses and meth to the radical wind-up terrorists.

Presuming these forces exist and folks can use such forces (e.g., majick, etc.) for good purposes, why is there no broad awareness of such?

There is a broad awareness in pre-modern tribal societies and there always has been a broad awareness of this in higher levels of the modern establishment. It is only the middle layers of ladder climbers of the last couple of generations that had their worldview handed to them through the media that thinks Psi is something to scoff at.

The hiding in plain sight thing seems hard to square. As was discussed in the telekinesis thread: Wouldn't there be a few folks eager to put their abilities to rigorous scientific testing?

I don't know about TK, but Bengston's healing method has been through rigorous testing and replications. Other forms of Psi are very common, we've just been taught to ignore and explain them away as pure acausal coincidence. Also there's a lot of "noise" that drowns out Psi in the modern world. Living closer to nature and having lots of empty down time and having stronger familial and emotional connections is much more conducive to Psi.
 
The general hand wave here where by no scientist is willing to advance science out of fear of ridicule, cessation of funding , etc does not seem to fully explain away things. At least for me. Seems there are too many Mavericks in life to believe there wouldn't be any in science. Again, just my view here
I suppose the question is, who is doing the hand waiving!

David
 
This is true; however, there is hope. The average person can't master enough knowledge or have access to all the information necessary to confirm every conspiracy theory, so people need an "establishment" of agreed to facts about the way the world works in order to stand on something. A lot of people are reeling from the loss of the old establishment and are questioning even basic well-established knowledge. Right now the old hierarchical establishment is being demolished and a new networked crowd-sourced establishment is being built. This new establishment will become the dominant establishment (provided the internet remains free and the lights don't go out). Some of the cornerstones of this new establishment worldview are: 9/11 was to a certain extent a fraud and is a Rosetta Stone to understand the way the world really works, the deep state is real, false flag ops and propaganda are SOP, we live under an international financial tyranny that controls the media and generates wars for profit, and Nihilistic Materialism makes an easily controlled consumer, and religion is an easily controlled opiate to the masses and meth to the radical wind-up terrorists.

I love this paragraph! And I totally agree with most of what you are saying, Hurmanetar. I think the frustrating thing (for me) is that the "new establishment" provided in part by the internet has already been intentionally infiltrated and to some extent co-opted, and all of us who are reeling from the loss of the old establishment are struggling to find a new establishment of "agreed to facts in order to stand on something." We know that the official story is most often either incomplete or largely false, but we can't get to the "real" story either, because even the alternative sources are all over the place as to what happened.

So you have an event like Sandy Hook, for example, where you know the official story isn't quite adding up, but when you try to find alternative sources to tell you the "facts," you'll soon find yourself wading into the muck of inconsistent and bizzaro-sounding alternative theories, with some alternative sources claiming that "it was a black-op operation" where real children were killed (but by different perps), to "it was a complete drill" where no children were killed and everyone was a crisis actor, to "the entire town of Sandy Hook is a Satanic strong hold" and on and on...

It becomes so convoluted and so unhinged from what you might be open to considering a reasonable alternative theory that you just end up not caring anymore. And then you just start bypassing everyone who insists they know the real story and who posts some doofy, bad background music YouTube video by someone with a clear political bias or agenda. And yet, sometimes the YT videos are actually quite informative, and one of the only ways to get alternative information out there since the MSM isn't going to publish the info. It's depressing.

I know this is intentional and part of the SOP of the false flag/propaganda agenda, but as you say, most of us don't have the time or ability to master enough knowledge about everything or gain the information necessary to confirm every "conspiracy theory." There really needs to be more sources that pass the objective, unbiased, well-researched, and well-written smell test before a "new establishment" can take root.
 
I think the frustrating thing (for me) is that the "new establishment" provided in part by the internet has already been intentionally infiltrated and to some extent co-opted, and all of us who are reeling from the loss of the old establishment are struggling to find a new establishment of "agreed to facts in order to stand on something."

It is infiltrated for sure, but I think it is analogous to a body's immune response or its micro-biome. If the information network is wide enough and decentralized enough and if people on average are empathetic and more likely to accept the truth over the illusion when presented with the information, then the process will eventually reach a new state of healthy equilibrium. And we don't have to rely entirely on the average abilities of people because the brighter lights among us become nodes in a network of trust. Some of these nodes are plants or just gifted in rhetoric without brains and they are putting out disinfo (perhaps someone like Eric Dubay) but the network will eventually self correct and cleanse itself of those bad bugs in the body... again all dependent on the internet staying online and free and uncensored.
 
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Interesting dialogue.

The bottom line on these conspiracy theories for me at least is: Who knows?

I do not have first hand knowledge of the events, investigation, and evidence from 9/11 nor SH for example. I have been pointed to conspiracy sites from members of this community. I spent a fair amount of time reading/watching through some of the SH sites. What I found was far from any smoking gun and quite frankly I found the behavior of some of the conspiracy theorists to be shockingly crass.

Perhaps there are better sites to explore; better sources. Here's the rub: I don't see the value in looking. I simply can't get past the impasse of how any conspiracy could conscript an entire community without a single whistleblower emerging. Again, I realize its not an impossible thing, but in my experience it would be an incredibly improbable thing. So, I choose not to put much credence in the claims and when reviewing the conspiracies I see a patchwork job of theories built upon theories. Nothing that would compel me to look further.

So, I remain a "sheep" I guess.
 
Interesting dialogue.

The bottom line on these conspiracy theories for me at least is: Who knows?

I do not have first hand knowledge of the events, investigation, and evidence from 9/11 nor SH for example. I have been pointed to conspiracy sites from members of this community. I spent a fair amount of time reading/watching through some of the SH sites. What I found was far from any smoking gun and quite frankly I found the behavior of some of the conspiracy theorists to be shockingly crass.

Perhaps there are better sites to explore; better sources. Here's the rub: I don't see the value in looking. I simply can't get past the impasse of how any conspiracy could conscript an entire community without a single whistleblower emerging. Again, I realize its not an impossible thing, but in my experience it would be an incredibly improbable thing. So, I choose not to put much credence in the claims and when reviewing the conspiracies I see a patchwork job of theories built upon theories. Nothing that would compel me to look further.

So, I remain a "sheep" I guess.
You can suspect 9/11 was an inside job and on the other hand you can consider SH to lack sufficient evidence and be a quote unquote conspiracy theory. You seem to be lumping theories together. Not even alternative theory is plausible and the term conspiracy theory is misleading
 
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