Coronavirus Pandemic

Sort of applies to everything you purchase and use from a third party. Hardly a basis from which one could reliably discern between what's earnest/good and what's dishonest/bad.

No, not everything purchased from a 3rd party is like vaccines made by Bill Gates.
  • Vaccine manufacturers have legal immunity from any harm their product causes. The Federal government defends them in a special court. It is very difficult to prove vaccine injury especially when the entire medical and legal establishment is biased towards the religious belief that vaccines are "safe and effective, safe and effective, safe and effective." To follow the data towards dissent results in excommunication and libel such as with Dr. Andrew Wakefield.
  • As Ethical Skeptic (forum member here) exposited on his blog, profit margins on vaccines are at least 5x that of other pharmaceuticals with free advertising and compulsory vaccination.
  • Put these first two points together and you can see why the vaccine schedule has mushroomed since the vaccine court was created in the 80's. If you're a vaccine maker and you're tooled up and ready to go, why not make as many as you can? There's no downside to more vaccines... you just have a few lobbyists and insiders at the CDC and for very little capital expenditure you can convince millions of people they need your product.
  • Vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream. This creates a whole new set of risk factors.
  • It is not easy to do unbiased science on vaccines because 1) double blind studies are often considered unethical, 2) there are significant disincentives to finding evidence that vaccines are not safe or effective, 3) cohort studies are low quality evidence with many possible confounding factors, 4) laboratory conditions are not always like the wild.
  • Some medical practices are pass/fail (like my bilateral hip replacements and my Lasik eye surgery... they're awesome)... I am happy to trust those. You can't fake those types of things. But something like the flu vaccine which might reduce your chances of flu hospitalization from about .01% to .005% based on slight statistical significance teased out of a cohort study... there's a lot more ambiguity in there to hide failure.
  • Bill Gates is making this particular Corona virus vaccine and although I don't trust the other companies out there any more than him and his foundation... at least he had the decency to make it plain to us that vaccines play a key role in reducing the population (in his TED talk linked to earlier).
 
Last edited:
The only good intention is to strengthen the species overall.

You mean... the physical vessels within which and through which conscious agents can operate?

IMO the only good intention for myself is what I do to increase the integrity of my soul such that the experiences of others is improved and enhanced by my words and deeds.
 
I'm not buying the asymptomatic stuff, the numbers are off in America and all of a sudden it's asymptomatic people spread 80 percent? How did they come up with this number? If one never gets tested nor has symptoms are they asymptomatic? Gtfo
*********
HA HA HA "GTFO" love it. You know.. that's right. If 80% are asymptomatic, then how do we know the %? We couldn't. Who said that anyway? That 80%? WTH?
 
*********
HA HA HA "GTFO" love it. You know.. that's right. If 80% are asymptomatic, then how do we know the %? We couldn't. Who said that anyway? That 80%? WTH?

This is my second repost. I think the forum software may be suffering from confirmation bias and not showing any posts that link to actual published scientific research.

This article published in Science, the Journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science seems to be the source of the statistic that 80% of infections come from asymptomatic cases.

...
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221

Substantial undocumented infection facilitates the rapid dissemination of novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV2)​
Ruiyun Li1,*, Sen Pei2,*,†, Bin Chen3,*, Yimeng Song4, Tao Zhang5, Wan Yang6, Jeffrey Shaman2,†​
See all authors and affiliations​
Science 16 Mar 2020:​
eabb3221​
DOI: 10.1126/science.abb3221​
...​
"undocumented infections were the infection source for 79% of documented cases "​
...​
"These undocumented infections often experience mild, limited or no symptoms and hence go unrecognized "​
...​
"Here we use observations of reported infection within China, in conjunction with mobility data, a networked dynamic metapopulation model and Bayesian inference, to infer critical epidemiological characteristics associated with SARS-CoV2, including the fraction of undocumented infections and their contagiousness. We estimate 86% of all infections were undocumented (95% CI: [82%–90%]) prior to 23 January 2020 travel restrictions. "​
To me it seems reasonable because during the exponential spread of a virus with a long latency period like covid 19, most cases won't be showing symptoms yet, although many will be contagious. And once someone is showing symptoms of covid-19 they are isolated. So the only people who are really capable of spreading the infection are those who are not yet showing symptoms and those who have mild cases and don't know they are sick.

It also makes sense from an evolutionary point of view, the most successful strains of a virus will spread without disabling the host because a disabled host is going to be less mobile and less capable of spreading the virus, especially if they are dead. I think that is why so many of these really dangerous diseases cross into humans from animals. They are dangerous to humans because they have not had enough time to evolve to use the new source of hosts efficiently.
 
Last edited:
The town web site explained that someone in my town has tested positive for covid-19 and has a child in public school. The family is quarantined at home, the families of exposed schoolmates are being contacted, and the town is closing the schools to sanitize them.
******
I'm in Georgia all our schools are closed. K-12 for the academic school year. You're only allowed out if you are going to the grocery store or someplace important.
 
******
I'm in Georgia all our schools are closed. K-12 for the academic school year. You're only allowed out if you are going to the grocery store or someplace important.

My state, Massachusetts, now has a stay at home "advisory". Schools and non-essential businesses are closed etc and staying at home is advised but not enforced. Cities can have their own rules. I don't have a car so I bike or walk to the grocery store. No one has bothered me or asked me where I'm going - the police probably know me by sight - if they cared they know I am going for groceries. I am retired and pretty much a home body so the virus hasn't interfered with my life style much - If people weren't panicking, getting sick, dying, buying toilet paper compulsively, and trying to live without a pay check I would think it was funny that everyone is now living like I do.

I am seeing really stupid enforcement stories from around the country like someone going for a drive in Pennsylvania or a lone surfer in California being fined. Like there is no common sense application based on the intention of the law - to prevent the spread of the disease.

I don't claim to know whether covid-19 has a higher fatality rate than seasonal flu or not (Fauci acknowledged he doesn't know either), It seems to be causing more problems in some places like New York where people live close together - that might be because it is more infectious than flu. I don't know if the economic costs are worth the lives saved (I think staying home is saving lives from contagious diseases and traffic accidents). Numbers of deaths were increasing exponentially until the stay at home orders had time to influence it, but without an unethical controlled experiement it is impossible to know for sure, but I think it's possible the stay at home orders saved hundreds of thousands of lives and prevented social chaos that would have accompanied it. So I don't fault the government for taking precautions based on available data and recommendations of experts - to save lives, prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed and breaking down, and to prevent the public hysteria that would cause, but I am concerned that the enforcement is being taken beyond common sense and in some places is becoming oppression.

I think Trump is right not to put a federal stay at home order in place and to let each state decide for themselves.

I don't think the stay at home orders are part of a conspiracy (the media might be over doing it, but as I said I don't fault the govt) But I think it's possible different groups will try to take advantage of the situation. And I think the most likely conspiracy involves China disseminating false information and letting infectious people travel internationally.

I would probably not get the vaccine if/when one becomes available, if I could possibly avoid it. I had painful crippling symptoms of polio for weeks after I took the polio vaccine as a child. So I have personal evidence that leads me to be wary of vaccines. The doctors denied it had anything to do with the vaccine but could not offer any explanation for my symptoms - so I don't trust doctors in general or what they say about vaccines in particular.

I haven't had as much as a cold for years and I don't get the flu vaccine. As I said I bicycle and walk so I have reasonable cardiovascular fitness. But I'm retired and I would rather die of pneumonia at the end of a two week illness than what my close relatives have died of - cancer, altzhimers disease, multiple crippling strokes.

And I have no dependents. If I had young children dependent on me and especially if I had a health condition that put me in a high risk category, I might consider getting vaccinated.
 
Last edited:
Doctor apologizes for equating covid-19 with flu, downplaying the danger, and claiming it was a press-induced panic, "I got it wrong".

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebr...as-wrong-about-coronavirus-threat/ar-BB12cbT1

Dr. Drew Pinsky is issuing a mea culpa after continually downplaying the danger of coronavirus for months and claiming it was "press-induced panic."​
"My early comments about equating coronavirus with influenza were wrong.​
 
Last edited:
https://www.oann.com/spain-returns-...returns-defective-covid-19-test-kits-to-china
Spain Returns Defective COVID-19 Test Kits To China​
The Spanish government faced immense criticism following the purchase of more than half a million kits, 60,000 of which were found to be only 30 percent effective.​
I have a similar experience with amazon.com most of the items they sell are made in China. Some are very good quality but I also return a large fraction of what I buy because they are defective or not as described.


This is pretty much what happens to me when I call tech support before returning the stuff:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-italy-coronavirus-supplies-buy-back
Turkey, Georgia and the Czech Republic have also spoken out about kits it purchased from China as being less than adequate. In some cases, instead of fixing the issue, China has blamed user error.

They should have bought from amazon or e-bay who guarantee a free return if the goods are defective or not as described.

Fortunately I have not had this exact problem yet:
China forces Italy to buy same coronavirus supplies it had donated to Beijing a few weeks ago​
But I have had to return merchandise that was not new even though it was described as such.
 
Last edited:
Vaccine manufacturers have legal immunity from any harm their product causes. The Federal government defends them in a special court. It is very difficult to prove vaccine injury especially when the entire medical and legal establishment is biased towards the religious belief that vaccines are "safe and effective, safe and effective, safe and effective." To follow the data towards dissent results in excommunication and libel such as with Dr. Andrew Wakefield.

This 'vaccination' of manufacturers from prosecution is critical because vaccines do injure some users. The rational argument is that on the premise vaccines are necessary, and they do cause injury, the injury should be an 'acceptable risk'. But that's not an argument any politician will try to sell. Mind you its okay for parents to agree to their kids joining the military and getting killed or maimed.

However the idea that your kid enlists in societal defence against viruses by default is not an idea anybody has tried out. It could actually be that the level of injury is higher than government cares to confess, so the vaccine injury court is used to control numbers, while admitting injuries do happen.

The simple reality is that you cannot have a 'one size fits all' vaccine preparation. That is an idiotic idea. The best that can be hoped for is 'best fit' that will give 'collateral damage'.

In times when 4-5 kids were usual, there was always a 'wastage' component built in to how we thought. Now 1-2 kids is the norm and the cost of raising the blighters is monumental. For some parents the ROI calculation suggests avoiding the risk of vaccination is the best option. That may or may not be the case, but its not the best choice for the society.

Invalidating fears of vaccine injury is dishonest. It is a shared risk, like military service. But spineless politicians will never tackle that problem.

This leaves us with a real fear. A Covid 19 vaccine may be introduced at an 'acceptable risk' level of safety and nobody is told ,and actual injury concealed to prevent adverse reaction. In the US I think there is a risk that such an approach could be driven by political considerations only marginally associated with public safety - if the vaccine is affordable in the first place.

My heart goes out to US forum participants. Words fail me in expressing my empathy for your plight.
 
https://www.breitbart.com/health/20...-will-be-much-much-much-lower-than-projected/

CDC Director: Coronavirus Death Toll Will Be ‘Much, Much, Much Lower’ than Projected​
...​
due to Americans following social distancing recommendations.​
"As you pointed out, those models that were done, they assume only about 50 percent of the American public would pay attention to the recommendations. In fact, what we’re seeing is a large majority of the American public are taking the social distancing recommendations to heart. And I think that’s the direct consequence of why you’re seeing the numbers are going to be much, much, much lower than would have been predicted by the models."​
 
Regarding the US (but this can be done anywhere if the data is reliable) -

There is a number which I am certain the required underlying data is available which, if generated, would put the whole virus fiasco in proper perspective (good / bad / in between).

It blows my mind this number has not been generated and posted.

That number is... how many people who ended up in the hospital for an illness and never left (thus died).... calculated on a daily basis over an exact same stretch of time, say January 16 through July 15 year over year for the last three or four years.

And then show the exact same number, posted on a daily basis for 2020. Then, compare the two daily numbers as a percentage and track the cumulative number and its percentage over the cumulative number of the same time frame for each of these last three or four years.

THAT IS THE NUMBER we should be looking at FIRST.

Then, do a conservative estimate as best as can be done, based on analysis of past data as to how much death will result from poverty and depression due to a shut down of the economy and a conservative realistic estimate of the impact of that shut down with regards to the increase (from normal conditions) in poverty and depression.

And this would be a simple case to make and should be compelling enough to decide how far we go in implementation of draconian measures. Well, at this point, the question would be, how much further we should go.

For example, if we saw that the increase suggested that the current number of deaths in the US (at this moment 11,830) attrubuted to COVID-19 could realistically be reduced to, say 3,000 and that bringing an economy to its knees would conservatively result in death from the resulting poverty and despair, 100,000 additional deaths above normal from the same two factors, it would suggest that the draconian measures are not only unmerited, they are "death wish fulfillment" revealing the true, lost/distorted "mental/emotional" (logic, versus emotional driven reaction) state of health present in modern US society today.
 
Last edited:
My state, Massachusetts, now has a stay at home "advisory". Schools and non-essential businesses are closed etc and staying at home is advised but not enforced. Cities can have their own rules. I don't have a car so I bike or walk to the grocery store. No one has bothered me or asked me where I'm going - the police probably know me by sight - if they cared they know I am going for groceries. I am retired and pretty much a home body so the virus hasn't interfered with my life style much - If people weren't panicking, getting sick, dying, buying toilet paper compulsively, and trying to live without a pay check I would think it was funny that everyone is now living like I do.

I am seeing really stupid enforcement stories from around the country like someone going for a drive in Pennsylvania or a lone surfer in California being fined. Like there is no common sense application based on the intention of the law - to prevent the spread of the disease.

I don't claim to know whether covid-19 has a higher fatality rate than seasonal flu or not (Fauci acknowledged he doesn't know either), It seems to be causing more problems in some places like New York where people live close together - that might be because it is more infectious than flu. I don't know if the economic costs are worth the lives saved (I think staying home is saving lives from contagious diseases and traffic accidents). Numbers of deaths were increasing exponentially until the stay at home orders had time to influence it, but without an unethical controlled experiement it is impossible to know for sure, but I think it's possible the stay at home orders saved hundreds of thousands of lives and prevented social chaos that would have accompanied it. So I don't fault the government for taking precautions based on available data and recommendations of experts - to save lives, prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed and breaking down, and to prevent the public hysteria that would cause, but I am concerned that the enforcement is being taken beyond common sense and in some places is becoming oppression.

I think Trump is right not to put a federal stay at home order in place and to let each state decide for themselves.

I don't think the stay at home orders are part of a conspiracy (the media might be over doing it, but as I said I don't fault the govt) But I think it's possible different groups will try to take advantage of the situation. And I think the most likely conspiracy involves China disseminating false information and letting infectious people travel internationally.

I would probably not get the vaccine if/when one becomes available, if I could possibly avoid it. I had painful crippling symptoms of polio for weeks after I took the polio vaccine as a child. So I have personal evidence that leads me to be wary of vaccines. The doctors denied it had anything to do with the vaccine but could not offer any explanation for my symptoms - so I don't trust doctors in general or what they say about vaccines in particular.

I haven't had as much as a cold for years and I don't get the flu vaccine. As I said I bicycle and walk so I have reasonable cardiovascular fitness. But I'm retired and I would rather die of pneumonia at the end of a two week illness than what my close relatives have died of - cancer, altzhimers disease, multiple crippling strokes.

And I have no dependents. If I had young children dependent on me and especially if I had a health condition that put me in a high risk category, I might consider getting vaccinated.
****
Your note made me laugh at first. EVERYONE is FORCED to live as we do. LOL. yeah, I mostly stay at home & garden & whatnot, but NOW that I've been told to "stay home" I WANT OUT! I don't like people telling me what to do. I want to ride my bike too! But... I'm not. Wonder when I will?

I have older children & a new grandbaby. I'm still not going to get any vaccine at this point. Esp. since these swab test were shown to actually carry this virus. WTH?! It's the bird flu all over again w/Baxter sending out infected vaccinations.

Do you know what bugs me? Well, the president said "hydroxychloroquine" & zinc were options and they are stopping him from saying that! Hydroxy. is what S.Korea was using that is how we found out about it. It was saving lives. Today on the news another politician (Dem) said the Hydroxy. just saved her life! BUT, it was hell getting it. Because her state won't allow people to have it! WTH is going on here? She was at death's door she said, but within hours of taking it, she was on the road to recovery.

I have seen video after video of docs saying they are using it and it WORKS. So again WTH is going on? How hard is it to take a ward of Covid-19 people & test half? UNLESS this was an "on purpose" and then they wanted to sell us an expensive drug OR vaccinate us all?! yeah that.

Something is afoot besides this stupid virus. BTW, we have to start asking actual live people who are working in large hospitals what they are seeing. How many patients? We've all seen the videos of the empty hospitals. Yet, I don't know. I called our largest in Atlanta, they said you had to be almost dead to get in. BUT, then someone showed a video of Grady Hospital empty waiting rooms. So, unless we know directly what is going on...

So, what I got is one nurse in Detroit said they were crowded. But, it was poor people (street people). The other direct report I got from Florida (Naples) said they had it under control. Taking care of people as they arrive.
 
This 'vaccination' of manufacturers from prosecution is critical because vaccines do injure some users. The rational argument is that on the premise vaccines are necessary, and they do cause injury, the injury should be an 'acceptable risk'. But that's not an argument any politician will try to sell. Mind you its okay for parents to agree to their kids joining the military and getting killed or maimed.

However the idea that your kid enlists in societal defence against viruses by default is not an idea anybody has tried out. It could actually be that the level of injury is higher than government cares to confess, so the vaccine injury court is used to control numbers, while admitting injuries do happen.

The simple reality is that you cannot have a 'one size fits all' vaccine preparation. That is an idiotic idea. The best that can be hoped for is 'best fit' that will give 'collateral damage'.

In times when 4-5 kids were usual, there was always a 'wastage' component built in to how we thought. Now 1-2 kids is the norm and the cost of raising the blighters is monumental. For some parents the ROI calculation suggests avoiding the risk of vaccination is the best option. That may or may not be the case, but its not the best choice for the society.

Invalidating fears of vaccine injury is dishonest. It is a shared risk, like military service. But spineless politicians will never tackle that problem.

This leaves us with a real fear. A Covid 19 vaccine may be introduced at an 'acceptable risk' level of safety and nobody is told ,and actual injury concealed to prevent adverse reaction. In the US I think there is a risk that such an approach could be driven by political considerations only marginally associated with public safety - if the vaccine is affordable in the first place.

My heart goes out to US forum participants. Words fail me in expressing my empathy for your plight.
***
This might not be the right time to bring this up... but (I'll do it anyway). It SEEMS that people who are over 50 need to get a HEP C test. They found that age group that got those "line em up" vaccines. Yeah, it carried HEP C. It is now showing up.

"A 2016 study by The Lancet points to unsafe medical procedures of the time rather than drug use as the primary reason behind hepatitis C transmission in baby boomers. Researchers behind the study found that: the disease spread before 1965. the highest infection rates happened during the 1940s and 1960s. "
 
Certain places already don't have much choice about vaccines. I live in California. Here you can't even get a medical exemption from your doctor without approval from a bureaucratic state board that isn't doctors. Without all the mandated vaccines you can't go to school. Home school is the only option.

I was planning on putting my house on the market to move out of state because of this but then we went into quarantine.

“Denmark's parliament on Thursday night unanimously passed an emergency coronavirus law which gives health authorities powers to force testing, treatment and quarantine with the backing of the police…As well as enforcing quarantine measures, the law also allows the authorities to force people to be vaccinated, even though there is currently no vaccination for the virus.”
https://www.thelocal.dk/20200313/denmark-passes-far-reaching-emergency-coronavirus-law

Regardless of the deadliness or not of this disease. Regardless of all the other stuff going on, this even will absolutely be used to push stronger mandatory vaccine laws in lots of places. There are something like 17 coronavirus vaccines being rushed through testing to get put out. They're already building production for them. https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/vaccines/coronavirus-vaccines

****
Excellent post except where you put "orange man bad". Maybe you will say "yellow man bad" next. Stop it. Orange man was ahead of the curve when he shut down the flights from China. Just stop it. Yeah, I read your back peddling. Ya still did it. *gesh.

I was being factitious with that comment mocking how other people talk about Trump. You're the second person that commented on it so apparently the sarcasm didn't come through.
 
Back
Top