Mod+ 262. WILL STORR ON THE ENEMIES OF SCIENCE

Ok, but I'm not sure I understand this distinction. I mean, wouldn't one have to sidestep all the NDE/OBE/STE/reincarnation evidence in order to walk this knife's edge of Materialism.

Can you think of a Skeptiko guest that has been unfairly labeled in the way you're talking about?

I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, but almost every episode you will talk about the dominant paradigm or world view today, and you will usually describe this in terms of biological robots in a meaningless universe where consciousness is an illusion. I'm arguing that this is not the dominant paradigm and that in fact hardly anyone believes it.

I agree with you that if Psi and the afterlife are real, then all versions of materialism are falsified, so in that sense it doesn't really matter whether the dominant paradigm today is emergentist or eliminativist materialism.

But in another sense it does matter. Saying that the dominant paradigm sees the world as devoid of love, feeling, value and meaning is much more negative and much nastier than saying that the dominant paradigm is simply false.

Plus, of course, some of us want to know what atheists and materialists actually believe and why they believe it. Throwing out these caricatures and stereotypes all the time just gets in the way of that.
 
I agree with you that if Psi and the afterlife are real, then all versions of materialism are falsified, so in that sense it doesn't really matter whether the dominant paradigm today is emergentist or eliminativist materialism.
I wouldn't be so sure. You could still argue that Ψ (and even consciousness) is nothing but a special field of energy that we still don't know how to measure. The core problem in the philosophy of materialism is the reductionist approach, the fact that we can dissect and reduce something to its essential components, to fully understand it.

The super-Ψ hypothesis, for example, is also a uber-materialist approach to the problem ... without a mechanism science appears to be paralyzed. Fortunately we have other ways of knowledge that can complement the analytical side, but I don't see those being elevated in dignity anytime soon :(
 
But in another sense it does matter. Saying that the dominant paradigm sees the world as devoid of love, feeling, value and meaning is much more negative and much nastier than saying that the dominant paradigm is simply false.
I don't think there's any intention to be nasty. On the contrary, if the aim is to have a meaningful discussion, then there needs to be some common ground established, and being 'nasty' would be counter-productive.

On the other hand, the reason why Alex phrases things the way he does may be from personal experience. I cannot speak for anyone else. But for myself, I held to a materialist worldview, without giving it much thought, but when at some point I started to look at things more closely, I saw the emptiness which perhaps is expressed in Alex's description. That train of thought led to a spiralling collapse of my life into a dark depression which lasted for a number of years. So I don't think it is 'nastiness' targeted at others, rather it is derived from personal experience.
 
I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, but almost every episode you will talk about the dominant paradigm or world view today, and you will usually describe this in terms of biological robots in a meaningless universe where consciousness is an illusion. I'm arguing that this is not the dominant paradigm and that in fact hardly anyone believes it.

I agree with you that if Psi and the afterlife are real, then all versions of materialism are falsified, so in that sense it doesn't really matter whether the dominant paradigm today is emergentist or eliminativist materialism.

But in another sense it does matter. Saying that the dominant paradigm sees the world as devoid of love, feeling, value and meaning is much more negative and much nastier than saying that the dominant paradigm is simply false.

Plus, of course, some of us want to know what atheists and materialists actually believe and why they believe it. Throwing out these caricatures and stereotypes all the time just gets in the way of that.

Yeah, you have a point I suppose. Maybe most materialists want to believe that morality matters, but only for as long as one is alive. Sam Harris seems to be in this camp. Somehow, morality emerged along with consciousness as a result of Darwinian evolution, and we try to behave as well as we can.

Possessing morality would in that circumstance be equivalent to, say, possessing two arms and legs, a digestive and nervous system, and so on. There are some people who are less moral than others, and we have set up laws and punishments to deal with them for the sake of the rest. Human society works for the majority of people alive at any given instant, and over time, things gradually improve.

The internal feelings and impressions we have seem real enough, but where did they come from? For most materialists, qualia are just a fact of life: we might not be able to explain them, but they exist and we behave in accord with them. At some future time we might be able to explain how they are generated and why we can't seem to do without them, but for the moment, they're a mystery.

Personally, I find that very hard to accept. Darwinian evolution doesn't explain why we couldn't exist as now, but without the experience of qualia. Why do we have such a strong impression of an interior life? Why couldn't we have evolved, in fact, as zombies who feel nothing? If we had, then I don't suppose we'd be here having this discussion. We'd just be aggregations of molecules behaving as we behave, and there'd be no internal voice that seems to be saying, hang on a moment...

Whatever materialists in the large think, one needs to square what that internal voice is saying with the fact that we don't behave that way. They have to explain to themselves how that could be, and at root, that's the source of the argument. In the end, I don't think they seriously engage with the question. For us non-materialists, be we mere believers or people of claimed experience, it's the only question worth engaging with. Who am I? What am I doing here? We can't help it. The question gnaws at us incessantly, and hasn't yet been answered.
 
All the evidence of NDE/OBE/STE/reincarnation etc is testamonial...not objective in the usual scientific sense.
Personally I accept it as legitimate and I take it to imply that consciousness is not an effect of brain functioning...
but I can understand how many today do not; and I would not be dissmissive or distainful of that position.

Mainstream views are always deeply historically and culturally conditioned.
Materialism has strong historical and cultural and philosophical roots.

Most reasonable materialists do not claim that conscious experience and meaning are unreal.
What they claim is that conscious experience and meaning are aspects of the normal functioning of the body.

It seems to meet there is an implicit claim underlying Alex's view to the effect that conscious experience can only be meaningful or real if it is non-physical.
 
Most reasonable materialists do not claim that conscious experience and meaning are unreal. What they claim is that conscious experience and meaning are aspects of the normal functioning of the body.

So: meaning only lasts as long as life does. What about NDEs: are they too aspects of normal functioning of the body? When people make a recovery after having had one, is it an aspect of normal functioning for them to change? To lose their fear of death and to think about helping others, for example?

That's a straight question, by the way.
 
So: meaning only lasts as long as life does. What about NDEs: are they too aspects of normal functioning of the body? When people make a recovery after having had one, is it an aspect of normal functioning for them to change? To lose their fear of death and to think about helping others, for example?

That's a straight question, by the way.

I am not arguing for the materialist position; or that meaning only lasts as long as physical life does.
That should be obvious I think. So I cannot answer as a materialist.
 

It is possible to make a study of the reports of NDEs...of the various testimonies....and correlate various aspects of them etc
But it is not possible to study the actual experiences themselves...they are first-person and subjective

One has to make a personal judgement and choice about the testimony of NDEers
I have made my choice...I believe them
But I dont get angry or distainful about those who dont

There are definitely scientific (objective) studies that indicate various psi effects...or at least unexplained anomalies

I am not arguing against these phenomena
I am only making a few epistemological points about the controversies that arise
 
It is possible to make a study of the reports of NDEs...of the various testimonies....and correlate various aspects of them etc
But it is not possible to study the actual experiences themselves...they are first-person and subjective

One has to make a personal judgement and choice about the testimony of NDEers
I have made my choice...I believe them
But I dont get angry or distainful about those who dont

There are definitely scientific (objective) studies that indicate various psi effects...or at least unexplained anomalies

I am not arguing against these phenomena
I am only making a few epistemological points about the controversies that arise
First, the topic is psi overall not just NDEs.
Second, every experience is first-person and subjective.
Third, it is possible (though pointless IMO) to scientifically study NDEs and it has been done.
Fourth, every opinion humans hold is based on personal choice/judgement. If that were not so, the subject of this very thread wouldn't exist.

I know that you're not arguing as a nay-sayer.
 
First, the topic is psi overall not just NDEs.
Second, every experience is first-person and subjective.
Third, it is possible (though pointless IMO) to scientifically study NDEs and it has been done.
Fourth, every opinion humans hold is based on personal choice/judgement. If that were not so, the subject of this very thread wouldn't exist.

I know that you're not arguing as a nay-sayer.

Objectivity arises when two subjects or individuals can share an experience, or reliably repeat an experience e.g. an experiment
Scientific objectivity is really a form of inter-subjectivity.
NDEs are not amenable to this kind of 'objective' verification; but this does not detract from their importance imo.
I think it is very useful to study NDEs and I am very grateful to those who do
 
I held to a materialist worldview, without giving it much thought, but when at some point I started to look at things more closely, I saw the emptiness which perhaps is expressed in Alex's description.
yes, I agree. so, first off, I don't think all this hair splitting about Materialism/ists is all that necessary (almost all seem to be of the variety I'm talking about) But secondly, if there is to be any sense of fairness or balance in the conversation we oughta be as clear as we can about how absurdity of this worldview. Let's face it, these ideas have dominated the stage so when we draw attention to the obvious craziness of "meaningless biological robots in a meaningless universe" those who have invested so much time and energy propping up such silly ideas are offended.
 
Let's face it, these ideas have dominated the stage so when we draw attention to the obvious craziness of "meaningless biological robots in a meaningless universe" those who have invested so much time and energy propping up such silly ideas are offended.
This is very much a topical subject. The way people respond to a perceived offence against their religion can be significant. Until fairly recently Britain had laws on blasphemy which made it technically illegal to to express certain criticisms of the Christian religion (though the law was very rarely used and has now been dropped). I get the feeling that materialists would like their beliefs to be protected by law.

In practice it is - in the UK tv programs on spiritual mediumship for example, are required by law to give a disclaimer that the program is "for entertainment only". Perhaps this legally sanctioned protection is part of the reason why materialists express self-righteous indignation when their beliefs are shown in another light.
 
yes, I agree. so, first off, I don't think all this hair splitting about Materialism/ists is all that necessary (almost all seem to be of the variety I'm talking about) But secondly, if there is to be any sense of fairness or balance in the conversation we oughta be as clear as we can about how absurdity of this worldview. Let's face it, these ideas have dominated the stage so when we draw attention to the obvious craziness of "meaningless biological robots in a meaningless universe" those who have invested so much time and energy propping up such silly ideas are offended.

Well people do tend to get upset when told that their ideas are crazy and silly
 
Objectivity arises when two subjects or individuals can share an experience, or reliably repeat an experience e.g. an experiment
Scientific objectivity is really a form of inter-subjectivity.
The "sharing" - not so. Here again a common cliche - "mass hallucination" can be used to clue in to that. And repeatability functions as validation. It doesn't mean that something is objective - or not.
I do agree that there is, in actuality, no such thing as pure objectivity

NDEs are not amenable to this kind of 'objective' verification; but this does not detract from their importance imo.
Maybe. But I hold that they are. Especially if we acknowledge that the states in an NDE can be accessed without being near-death.
 
Objectivity arises when two subjects or individuals can share an experience, or reliably repeat an experience e.g. an experiment
Scientific objectivity is really a form of inter-subjectivity.
NDEs are not amenable to this kind of 'objective' verification; but this does not detract from their importance imo.
I think it is very useful to study NDEs and I am very grateful to those who do

NDEs are a scientifically categorized phenomena that have repeatedly been experienced by individuals around the world. And all kinds of individuals, from very young children, to individuals who had never heard of an NDE. In the last few decades 65 different scientific studies have been conducted regarding NDEs, and nearly all of them have been published in peer review scientific journals, and have REPEATEDLY provided results confirming and corroborating previous studies.

Scientific objectivity is a form of repeatable observation, but this repeatable observation doesn't require each observer be in the same room observing the same phenomena. In addition, scientific observation does not depend on the assumption that any psychological experience reported must necessarily be false. In fact, all scientists report their observations, which are in of themselves psychological experience. A good portion of psychology and the social sciences and medical research ABSOLUTELY DEPEND on psychological surveys and testimony and analysis of what human beings report. To make the claim that this is not scientific is simply another fallacy by materialist skeptics who use this Skeptical talking point as if it held some kind of scientific validity or rigor.

If you think it is very useful to study NDEs then maybe you might actually do so, instead of make the ridiculous claim that NDE research does not conform to science. Look at the bloody evidence for once, or better yet, conduct a scientific study like so many others have done.

Finally, I'm not going to waste my time here arguing over evidentiary standards, based on the a priori bias of a materialist skeptic who immediately assumes based on ignorance that whatever evidence has been provided - be it Psi or NDEs it must be necessarily false due to poor scientific methodology. This argument, that is one step away from the accusation of "woo" is just another piece of empty rhetoric Skeptics resort to, while absolutely refusing to grant even a modicum of respect and consideration for the hard work of real scientists (not pseudo-scientists) engaged in the scientific research of Psi and NDE phenomena.

My Best,
Bertha
 
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Finally, I'm not going to waste my time here arguing over evidentiary standards, based on the a priori bias of a materialist skeptic who immediately assumes based on ignorance that whatever evidence has been provided - be it Psi or NDEs it must be necessarily false due to poor scientific methodology.
Agreed. We've covered this ground before... participation here requires an openness to the existing data evidence as a starting point.
 
From an old cartoon strip, The Perishers I remember one of the characters (on the receiving end) expressing a dilemma: "It's very tricky when an insult is also an accurate description".

no...telling some one their opinions are crazy or silly is never accurate
it is always an expression of bias and arrogance
 
The "sharing" - not so. Here again a common cliche - "mass hallucination" can be used to clue in to that. And repeatability functions as validation. It doesn't mean that something is objective - or not.
I do agree that there is, in actuality, no such thing as pure objectivity


Maybe. But I hold that they are. Especially if we acknowledge that the states in an NDE can be accessed without being near-death.

Well what you write is inherent in what I wrote...and you even admit it and agree..

This is why it took humanity so long to create real science...it is very difficult to do it and it requires enormous iintegrity and discline
We are only half-way there in my opinion
Materialism is a half-way theory
 
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