Mod+ 228. Mary Rodwell Advocates for Alien Contactees

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chuck.drake

#21
Yeah, I just scanned the transcript, and fair enough, it relates to North American indians, but I didn't notice anything that went back before settlement by Europeans. I'll investigate further, though.

Yeah. It's a kind of isomorphism, and you find it in many different variants of folk tales and myths. Think about this stuff for long enough and you realise that everything is to some degree folk tale/myth, not excluding modern science. That's one good reason for having to be an agnostic and keep an open mind.
I think part of the issue with reports of abductions outside of English speaking countries is that many countries seem to have their own UFO researchers and since the audience is rather small, getting translations into English is probably not always feasible.
 
#22
This is interesting:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc16.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc16.htm
People in countries around the world are experiencing alien abductions that seem, in many cases, very similar to the accounts reported in the United States; yet the abductions remain distinct in the way people's cultural background frame their experience. In Brazil, for instance, which is rife with traditions of spirit and ancestor communication and mediumship, "ET visitations" are more valued than ancestor spirit visits because of the ETs' association with high-tech space travel, reflecting the cultural preoccupation of Brazil's development-minded psyche. This often results in colorful variations. In one Brazilian home we visited, a mother who had traditionally ruled the roost through her communications with the family's ancestor spirits felt her power threatened when her son began to communicate with [reported] aliens.
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#23
Nice interview! I know virtually nothing about this field but am interested in the topic and this series of podcasts. Hope the topic becomes routinely rotated among the other ones.

Apart from the interesting line of inquiry Alex is pursuing, one thing I'm often curious about is: are there reports existing of people having allegedly encountered aliens, through abduction or otherwise, where these beings have related to them a greater truth about The All That Is. Specifically, I'm interested to know, maybe to the extent that these beings are fleshy/material creatures, if they related something akin to the fact that they are also Spirit incarnate, and that we come from a same Source? Something that would confirm a message we repeatedly get through NDEs, ADCs, mediumship, etc. (I'm not so much interested in people channeling such info, but if they've been so informed through encounters.)
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#24
Likewise, with NDEs, people from various cultures seem to encounter what they expect to encounter (with of course, the same underlying themes). .
I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about NDEs, but I disagree here, Ethan. One of the important arguments for the NDEs-are-not-hallucinations hypothesis is that, despite the cross-cultural differences, NDE researchers have consistently found that cultural or personal expectations are not an explanation for NDEs. E.g. NDErs report encountering a reality completely contrary to their pre-NDE beliefs (so that they feel "traumatized", i.e. their sense of themselves and Life completely shaken up, very much like the UFO abductees that Mary Rodwell is describing), atheists become believers, children encounter scenarios that are like the adults' when they're too young to have been conditioned, adults experience similar scenarios whether they're familiar or not with NDE reports.
 
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#25
As far as the Kundalini experience, I think some common human encounters can perhaps hint at what is going on here. Every one has probably heard it said that when they are around an uplifting person, they feel uplifted. And, of course, a downer person brings you down. Hanging out with a Feynman or an Einstein for a week, would probably open up somebody's eyes to a whole new world. For an extreme, perhaps mythical example, take Saul's encounter of Jesus on the road to Damascus. That was like BAM, Jesus shows up in all his glory, and the dude is so transformed by the experience he has to change is name to Paul - he is no longer the same person.

I think just coming into contact with a higher, more powerful consciousness, which the aliens seem to be, can have the effect of transforming our consciousnesses, enabling experiences like the Kundalini experience. Likewise, with NDE'rs. They come into contact with a higher place of existence, or a higher plane of consciousness, and it transforms them to sometimes incredible extents. I've heard of folks having their first kundalini experience when they come into contact with a group of like-minded highly spiritual individuals, as if just hooking up with these folks and being around their energy is what took them over the edge to having the experience.

This can also suggest that it could even be dangerous for the "aliens" to just show up, land and start interacting with us. There is no guarantee the transformative experience has to be positive, especially if one is not ready for it.

I discussed this on my blog with respect to the dual alien/human identity that is often reported. Just my speculations on what that might be about:

"Upon reading this list, the spiritual, or consciousness expanding aspect, of the abduction phenomenon becomes obvious. In regards to the double human/alien identity, which is a difficult one to swallow (as if the rest isn't!), I think there is a reasonable explanation. In yogic lore and other traditions, unity consciousness is mentioned, where subject and object merge and a state of Oneness is experienced. I think an encounter with an advanced consciousness, such as with these alien beings, could potentially force this experience upon a person, before they are ready to fully interpret, or understand, the experience, thereby creating a mistaken dual human/alien identity. As I mentioned above, abductees are often afraid to look into the eyes for fear of "a loss of self". Or, imagine suddenly becoming fully psychic and hearing others thoughts and experiencing others emotions, as clearly and distinctly as your own. Could this become disorienting, causing one to lose track of who is originating which thoughts and feelings? Could it serve to bring about an identity crisis of sorts? Thinking along these lines could perhaps explain why aliens "haven't landed on the White House lawn", as it is popularly phrased. It could very well be dangerous for humanity as a whole to interact with such an advanced consciousness at this point in time. It could be they currently prefer this lower level of interaction, which sends a message (through the mouths of abductees) and encourages a development of consciousness (which is already underway!) within humanity, helping to lead us down a path to where we will be ready to meet them "face to face". All speculation, of course!"
If you are already psychic the field effect of other psychics is strong enough to be risk factor, both for them and for you. And that field effect is not a geographic field effect - that person can be anywhere in the world (or maybe beyond it, who knows). An email is quite sufficient to be a stimulus or even reading a book written by that person. It can be a b;)ggar.
 
#26
I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about NDEs, but I disagree here, Ethan. One of the important arguments for the NDEs-are-not-hallucinations hypothesis is that, despite the cross-cultural differences, NDE researchers have consistently found that cultural or personal expectations are not an explanation for NDEs.
Hi Ninshub, err Ian, :)

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear there. We're actually in agreement, I think. I definitely didn't mean to imply hallucination. An example would probably help clarify. Many report meeting a being of light, which I believe to be a real event and is an example of what I refer to as the same underlying themes in my earlier posts. However, a Hindu may expect to meet Krishna, so he interprets the being of light as Krishna, while a Christian may see the being of light as Jesus.

I think it all boils down to the fact that it's hard to see what you're not capable of perceiving. No doubt, an NDE can open the "doors of perception" quite a bit. which is what makes it such an incredibly transformative experience. But, it seems like some go deeper than others. Mystics don't even have to have an NDE. The reports of the higher states of Samadhi they can achieve at will sound much richer than the majority of NDEs, but the average Joe will not be able to do this, or even be ready for an experience like that.

Anyhow, hopefully that makes more sense.
 
#27
What interests me is how accounts of abductions and encounters differ so much. It reminds me of NDErs accounts of God-construct encounters. That something important is going on here seems likely, but the way to understand it may be by seeing the parallels with some mystical experiences which combine physical reality with the psychic or mystical realm pathways. Maybe there is a clue here to the relationship between Mind and matter. It seems when there is no prescribed way to process the "data" of the experience (because it lies outside normal), our consciousness interprets it with culturally defined archetypes. I'm reminded of the ames room illusion. What interests me is what provokes these experiences if we think of them as being para-physical? NDErs have a "syndrome" of characteristics which describe them. There is significant overlap with Kundalini syndrome. (Wiki for once is a useful reference here). So do these "experiencers" exhibit similar characteristics? Has anyone studied this? Some do report the "mystical union" state of consciousness. I remember an earlier interview with a counsellor on Skeptiko saying this is part of the experience for some. If we are looking at this using a normal investigative model we are probably missing the point and for that matter the wonder.

Jules
I agree on stuff being filtered through/informed by our culture. Else, as I was kinda saying on another thread, there's no way to account for historical encounter/abduction phenomena: cigar ship sightings and others that parallel fairy folk mythologies.
 
#29
I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about NDEs, but I disagree here, Ethan. One of the important arguments for the NDEs-are-not-hallucinations hypothesis is that, despite the cross-cultural differences, NDE researchers have consistently found that cultural or personal expectations are not an explanation for NDEs. E.g. NDErs report encountering a reality completely contrary to their pre-NDE beliefs (so that they feel "traumatized", i.e. their sense of themselves and Life completely shaken up, very much like the UFO abductees that Mary Rodwell is describing), atheists become believers, children encounter scenarios that are like the adults' when they're too young to have been conditioned, adults experience similar scenarios whether they're familiar or not with NDE reports.
But do atheists living in a country with a Judeo-Christian tradition experience Krishna or Mohammed or Hern for that matter? What I have read is that cultural tradition does impact on the interpretive model for the experience. That is maybe different from non-believers becoming believers?
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#30
But do atheists living in a country with a Judeo-Christian tradition experience Krishna or Mohammed or Hern for that matter? What I have read is that cultural tradition does impact on the interpretive model for the experience. That is maybe different from non-believers becoming believers?
Hi Jules,

I should have been more precise and stated that NDE researchers do find cross-cultural differences, but 1) the similarities outweigh the differences, and 2) more relevant to this particular point we're talking about, for the reasons enumerated in my post above, in PMH Atwater's words, "the claim that near-death responses are biased because of personal or cultural expectations doesn't hold up" (The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences, p. 210). As I wrote, leaving aside even atheists meeting Jesus or whatever: NDErs (often) report encountering a reality completely contrary to their pre-NDE beliefs*, children encounter scenarios that are like the adults' when they're too young to have been conditioned, adults experience similar scenarios whether they're familiar or not with NDE reports.

*Example. A fundamentalist Christian may not experience anything remotely biblical, and instead a truly belief-shattering experience, where he/she experiences a Source that communicates a Total Knowing that doesn't even include any notions of morality or progress, etc. See, for example, Wayne Hart: http://whitestaghealing.com/Near_Death_Experience.html

(I think we also have to be careful when we talk about how NDErs "interpret" their experience. We may mean and mix up different things when we say that. You can sometimes/often detect when an NDEr says that they saw a being of light and for them they think it was Jesus, and others where the being encountered told them he was Jesus. In the second case, the NDEr is not "interpreting" his experience. At most, you could argue that the consciousness, whether manifesting something on its own or being made to experience something by higher powers, or a combination of both, is receiving a symbolic interpretation of an ultimate reality fitted to his or her understanding.)

Jeff Long, among others, makes the same point, perhaps a bit too strongly stated, but true in some sense: "Preexisting cultural beliefs do not significantly influence the content of NDEs. Near-death experiences from around the world appear to have similar content regardless of the culture of the country that the NDErs live in. This is certainly consistent with our findings... that very young children, age five and younger, who have received much less cultural influence than adults, have NDEs with content that is the same as that of older children and adults." (Evidence of the Afterlife, p. 150)

Anyhow, I really don't want to distract this thread further: please back to abduction experiencers! :)
 
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#31
Hi Jules,

I should have been more precise and stated that NDE researchers do find cross-cultural differences, but 1) the similarities outweigh the differences, and 2) more relevant to this particular point we're talking about, for the reasons enumerated in my post above, in PMH Atwater's words, "the claim that near-death responses are biased because of personal or cultural expectations doesn't hold up" (The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences, p. 210). As I wrote, leaving aside even atheists meeting Jesus or whatever: NDErs (often) report encountering a reality completely contrary to their pre-NDE beliefs*, children encounter scenarios that are like the adults' when they're too young to have been conditioned, adults experience similar scenarios whether they're familiar or not with NDE reports.

*Example. A fundamentalist Christian may not experience anything remotely biblical, and instead a truly belief-shattering experience, where he/she experiences a Source that communicates a Total Knowing that doesn't even include any notions of morality or progress, etc. See, for example, Wayne Hart: http://whitestaghealing.com/Near_Death_Experience.html

(I think we also have to be careful when we talk about how NDErs "interpret" their experience. We may mean and mix up different things when we say that. You can sometimes/often detect when an NDEr says that they saw a being of light and for them they think it was Jesus, and others where the being encountered told them he was Jesus. In the second case, the NDEr is not "interpreting" his experience. At most, you could argue that the consciousness, whether manifesting something on its own or being made to experience something by higher powers, or a combination of both, is receiving a symbolic interpretation of an ultimate reality fitted to his or her understanding.)

Jeff Long, among others, makes the same point, perhaps a bit too strongly stated, but true in some sense: "Preexisting cultural beliefs do not significantly influence the content of NDEs. Near-death experiences from around the world appear to have similar content regardless of the culture of the country that the NDErs live in. This is certainly consistent with our findings... that very young children, age five and younger, who have received much less cultural influence than adults, have NDEs with content that is the same as that of older children and adults." (Evidence of the Afterlife, p. 150)

Anyhow, I really don't want to distract this thread further: please back to abduction experiencers! :)
I agree the core components of the experience are consistent from what I've read.
 
#32
IIRC I think The Scole Experiment had this paranormal/afterlife and UFO-connection, and even a future-connection as well.


Also this documentary (UFO'S and the Paranormal Phenomenon) might interest those who want to know about the PSI/afterlife-UFO connection.






last episode is here. I cant embed more than 4 videos in the same post as it seems.>> http://youtu.be/mdVFVmhjKFE
 
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#33
Alex's question at the end of the podcast:

One group of people say alien abduction is actual abduction: a crime and a violation of human rights, and believing otherwise is an aspect of the mind control of the experience. Another group (including Mary Rodwell) say it's a transformative spiritual experience.

What is your opinion?
Unfortunately, I'm still stuck on "is this really happening?" I am inclined to think it is, but just don't know enough yet.

Years ago I had friends who thought that it was only how we perceived alien abductions that made them negative. This seemed ridiculous to me. So someone kidnaps you and then does invasive surgeries and that's benign? A friend of mine used to tell a joke in which an alien abducts you, gets you on the table, inserts an anal probe, and then says, "Can I talk to you about Amway?"

The fact is, though, I just don't know enough and shouldn't be closed to Rodwell's position. I really appreciated what Alex said about NDEs, how it's patently obvious that they are loving--I had been thinking that all through the show. Yet there is parallel to Rodwell's position even there. NDE researcher Kenneth Ring wrote a 1994 article in the Journal of Near-Death Studies titled, “Solving the Riddle of Frightening Near-Death Experiences: Some Testable Hypotheses and a Perspective Based on A Course in Miracles.” There, he attempted to explain "inverted" NDEs--experiences that contained the classical elements but are pervaded by fear--as a fear reaction to a naturally pleasurable experience:

"If you are still clinging to your little island of make-believe, your ego, when you enter into death, you will experience its own fear, perhaps to the point of terror. If you can let go, however…you will find yourself one with the Infinite Light of Life."

As the last part of the quote says, if someone can let go of their egoic attachments in an "inverted" NDE, the experience will then "convert" back to the more typical pleasurable NDE.

On the other hand, I know a man who had abduction experiences from a young age. Then, when an abduction episode began to unfold after many years of nothing, he found himself shouting out "I am of the family of Jesus Christ!" This surprised him as it was not his language nor the way he thought about things. However, the experience immediately stopped and never happened again. Whatever the truth is, he himself clearly saw the abductors not as his real family, but as acting contrary to the family of Jesus of which he's part.

On another front, don't we agree to everything on a soul level before entering this life? If so, then we also agreed to military abductions (if they in fact happen) and by Rodwell's reasoning should view them as benign, right?

I look forward to the future podcast that involves both sides. Rodwell, while very likable, didn't quite manage to gain my trust. While I take my own "resonance" with truth seriously, surely it also exists in relationship with (and accountability to) other, more objective measures. I also didn't like her repeated emphasis on the other researcher leaving the lunch table. I didn't think that was fair to the other guy. So anyway, I'm hoping future shows can help me make up my mind.
 
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C

chuck.drake

#34
It just occurred to me that. according to Wikipedia, alien abductions are most reported in English-speaking countries. One wonders if there's a counterpart here to reincarnation stories being most reported in the East, and to different cultural flavourings of NDEs. One could even tie it in with morphic resonance at the cultural level.
As I mentioned earlier. Here is a website from Holland regarding hybrid alien/human children. I think the author of the wikipedia article was likely expressing an opinion based on their own experience that most accounts are from English speaking countries.

http://www.praktijksigridkarssens.nl
 
#35
Apart from the interesting line of inquiry Alex is pursuing, one thing I'm often curious about is: are there reports existing of people having allegedly encountered aliens, through abduction or otherwise, where these beings have related to them a greater truth about The All That Is. Specifically, I'm interested to know, maybe to the extent that these beings are fleshy/material creatures, if they related something akin to the fact that they are also Spirit incarnate, and that we come from a same Source? Something that would confirm a message we repeatedly get through NDEs, ADCs, mediumship, etc. (I'm not so much interested in people channeling such info, but if they've been so informed through encounters.)
John Mack and the folks he works with get into this a bit. Seems like a common message is that the aliens are "closer to the Source" and they are "less densely embodied than we are". Also, it is definitely the same Source for all of us and one of the main reasons they are visiting is that our activities on Earth actually effect their plane of existence, which may, or may not, actually be in the physical Universe. Sort of like the Global Consciousness Project on steroids. We don't think our negative choices and attitudes effect anything, but according to these theories, they really do in ways that are hard to imagine. There are also some fairly common interepretions where the aliens physically incarnate when they need to, but the physical plane is not really where they're from.

Interestingly enough, the description of these aliens as less embodied is very similar to the descriptions guys like Cayce and Steiner have given about humanity around the earlier times of Atlantis (100,000 BC, I think they would say), if one buys into that at all. I can't remember if Cayce talks about this, but Steiner definitely gets into predictions about humanity being less densely embodied in the future as well, in what sounds like a similar fashion to the reports of these aliens, with also the same psychic powers eventually becoming innate within us.

As far as greater Truths, that seems to come later from folks who have worked through the negative aspects of the experience (if they had any in the first place). The relationship with the aliens changes to something more positive where two-way communications are opened up and "lessons are taught". Anyhow, the message is very similar to the messages that come out of NDEs.

Anyhow, I don't know how much I buy into any of that, but there it is :)
 
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Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#36
On another front, don't we agree to everything on a soul level before entering this life? If so, then we also agreed to military abductions (if they in fact happen) and by Rodwell's reasoning should view them as benign, right?
Re: your first question, Robert: I am inclined to believe that we agree not to "everything", but to a plan of some sort, with most of the key features of our life (based on my readings). I think (again based on my readings) likely that we would know that we would experience a military abduction (though not necessarily, it could also be an unplanned accident). Should we conclude that it was benign if planned? Not from our human-centered perspective. From a soul perspective, we would likely see it (if planned) as an experience for our growth, or the growth of some others involved.

Re: traumatic experiences in general. From the logic of what I've described, we, in our human incarnate-personality level, would not be expected to experience any trauma as "benign" - the growth (or other consequence) factor would evolve from the experience being traumatic - and what would enfold following this.
 
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#37
Have a look at Touched - Investigating ET Encounters - featuring Dr. John Mack.

They follow Dr. John Mack and two abductee cases that are pretty interesting.



Here is a panel-discussion/debate with Dr John Mack and Alien Abduction Researcher - Budd Hopkins


This one called John Mack - Experiencers are about that group of schoolkids who had a close encounter with a craft and 2 alien beings near their school. "-At the Ariel School in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, sixty-two children between the ages of eight and twelve reported seeing a UFO and “strange beings” during morning recess."


http://johnemackinstitute.org/2008/...school-ufo-sighting-documentary-film-project/

This will keep you busy for a while. :)
 
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#38
Thanks Pollux. I seem to remember a video of John Mack on Oprah too. It was pretty decent. They are several abductees on with him and they dig into the details of their experiences quite a bit and potential meanings behind them. I'm at work right now so I can't look for it, but it should be on YouTube somewhere.
 
#39
Thanks Pollux. I seem to remember a video of John Mack on Oprah too. It was pretty decent. They are several abductees on with him and they dig into the details of their experiences quite a bit and potential meanings behind them. I'm at work right now so I can't look for it, but it should be on YouTube somewhere.
Oh, I haven't seen that one. I will look for it. If you find it first maybe you can post the link here?
 
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