Mod+ 231. Dr. David Jacobs Dismisses Spiritual Alien Abduction Stories

#21
As Skeptiko members, I wonder if it's wise to have strong opinion's about something we have no real knowledge.
By "knowledge", I take it you mean of the materialist and intellectual sort?

" The only natural physical resource they wouldn't get anywhere else would be our DNA. "
That's conjecture.

"The other therapists report the opposite effect."
That is false. While it is true that *some* therapists report a positive effect they are in a minority.

"I find that peculiar considering the evolution of man from ape seemed environmentally driven to the African Savannah of a few million yerars ago"
That's one perspective on one concept (IMO an incorrect one) of how homo sapiens came about.
 
#22
By "knowledge", I take it you mean of the materialist and intellectual sort?

" The only natural physical resource they wouldn't get anywhere else would be our DNA. "
??? That's way out of left-field.

"The other therapists report the opposite effect."
That is false. While it is true that *some* therapists report a positive effect they are in a minority.

"I find that peculiar considering the evolution of man from ape seemed environmentally driven to the African Savannah of a few million yerars ago"
That's one perspective on one concept (IMO an incorrect one) of how homo sapiens came about.
 
#24
The National Security State analysis and Guy Debord’s thesis of the Society of the Spectacle are two apparently unrelated critiques of post-War society that could help us unravel some of the weird stuff that’s been going on since World War II. Other guidelines should be added, including the analysis of the economy which, following Thorstein Veblen, stresses the abundance that has characterized American (and since World War II, world) capitalism, and the way the natural sciences have been developed, which may help us to find a way out of the present psycho-social quagmire.
What concerns me is the way you’ve ignored so much critical stuff about the abduction phenomenon that’s already out there on the web, Alex. As far as I’m concerned, it is a secondary matter whether the abductions are spiritual or malevolent. What seems to be at the essence of things and therefore worthy of study is how and why the military-industrial-intelligence complex is engaging in all this.
 
#25
Alex, I apologize for going new age on your ass and I wouldn't presume the unfathomable but here goes. How I rationalize the NDE. It's a real phenomenon because the essence of consciousness is the underlying energy which creates the material universe (observer creates what is observed). For the individual it exists on multiple levels, and is fragmented. We are only aware and occupy ourselves with that part of consciousness which gives rise to the self and all the sensations and emotions which drive it's life. We all have a certain level of self awareness and capacity to reintegrate with the eternal energy which drives all existence and exists for us spiritual seekers as pure love. Without the physical body, the truth of our own fragmentation becomes manifested and shapes the experience. Because that consciousness energy drives and creates a kind of reality. We tend to experience that which is familiar and known to us. The Hindus call it samsara and it follows us into the afterlife because it's what we know. Total self awareness and understanding the truth of self allows the individual to reintegrate with all levels of consciousness. I imagine the NDE would then be different, but I wouldn't know. As for Eben being given access to higher levels of knowledge. Well look at how he's totally transformed his life. He was already there. He just didn't know it.
 
#26
Just wanted to post my first "virgin" post here in the new forum & comment with a huge thanks for another thought provoking interview on a subject matter that has intrigued me for years. Anyone who remembers me in the previous forum will recall I usually chipped in when this subject arose!

I admit I don't agree particularly with David Jacob's traditional interpretation of the phenomenon simply because there are too many disconcerting intangibles/paradoxes involved in a place which exists, very uncomfortably for us humans, on multitudinous but interlinked levels (from dream states to graspable plain as day reality). It doesn't fit any 'box' in its entirety and it appears to me David Jacobs is adamant he 'knows' which box is indubitably the right one, even in considering the overall malicious 'intent' of these aliens.

How can we fathom the intent of a race which isn't human I wonder? Would they necessary have any of our values?! There seem to be those who believe they are here purely for our spiritual advancement. And Whitley Strieber, bless him, for all his years of alleged intimate contact just seems to be further down a never-ending rabbit hole in understanding their intent at all. To him they are angels and demons all wrapped in one. One would think at least he was a tad closer to unraveling this conundrum!! ;) Then there are those who claim the greys are after our etheric energies; in other words they are parasitic!

An analogy for me of the popular culture distortions and frustrating evasiveness of this phenomenon is the 'dolly' zoom effect adopted to create menace or shock in a horror movie - in other words we run toward a general understanding which moves further off into the distance just as we believe we are getting closer to pinning it down. Nothing will move it further off than closing our minds to multiple meanings even if they are more unsettling or don't match our existing beliefs. ;)

I'll give John Mack & Jacques Vallee due credit in underpinning this phenomenon with significant social/cultural, archetypal/folkloric and para-physical chimera-like qualities where nothing is quite as it seems. The convergence with such things as Marion Visions has often made me wonder if these light shows are not heavily interconnected and vastly manipulative. And its not just the phenomenon which is tricky but the people who claim to have experienced it. Many I have no doubt are genuine but I cannot believe there are 'millions' of abductees. The abductee trend or bandwagon again derails the truth! What I tend to believe more is that people latch onto the abductee experience to explain an episode of 'high weirdness' when in fact it could be anything paranormal at all. Two hundred years ago one had to watch out for fairy abductions - so we filter an 'unknown' through an urban belief where it then gets trapped and ossifies, which is not to say it doesn't have an independent reality but simply that our inherent need to stereotype or pigeonhole and clump everything together under one banner is ultimately our worst foe.
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#27
Thanks a lot for these 2 interviews, Alex. :) You asked a lot of great questions and your idea about trying to set up some research is interesting, though I tend to think it wouldn't be "simple".

I'm a "psi"/"spiritual universe" guy, completely ;) (btw, Jacobs is on board with telepathy with the aliens so he's definitely not 100% mind=brain), but I also don't have "a dog in this fight" when it comes to UFOs or abductions, and 'm glad to have heard these interviews and read The Threat. Whether Jacobs is a little wrong, mostly right, or completely wrong about what's happening (I'll post a little later on a few points of contention I have with the book), I can't see how people could dismiss him outright and I'm happy to have read this book first so that I'll be more properly skeptical about all the other abduction/encounter hypnosis-derived material. (This doesn't mean I buy into the fact that Jacobs' own hypnosis-derived material is automatically and/or completely the "truth", OR that I think that hypnosis-derived material is necessarily/completely bunk. I am pessimistic about there being any kind of definitive way of properly getting to this truth, but I find just trying to engage the mystery is fascinating and I will continue to read up on this topic.)
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#28
Here's something else I wanted to add to this thread.

I looked for the documentary where Will Bueche says Jacobs first made a similar comment about Mack's last years, and found it. I'm posting it here and I'm recommending everyone genuinely interested in this topic to view it, because it so informative and covers all of the the questions we're looking into here, and in this field generally, so well. It's a bonus film (2h24) added to the main doc "UFOs: The Secret History" (2009) by David Cherniak called "Contact Has Begun". All it is is interviews with the following people, structured around different themes: Jacobs, Hopkins, Will Bueche, Janet Colli and other serious UFO researchers coming from different angles (some skeptical in various ways): Jerome Clark, Ann Druffel, psychologists Steven Lynn, Stuart Appelle & Albert Harrison, folklorist Thomas Bullard, physicist-sociologist Mark Rodeghier + abductee Travis Walton. This is must-viewing.
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Secret-History-Jerome-Clark/dp/B0044LYRLO
(This sounds like an all-around definitive UFO dvd, btw. Paul Kimball: The single best historical documentary about the UFO phenomenon.)

Here's a breakdown of it with some points I want to bring attention to. Jacobs and Hopkins are very prominent in the first half of the doc, less so in the last.
1. Historical perspectives.
2. Budd Hopkins. (21 min). These first two sections are great introductions to the history of the field.
3. The Roper Poll. (29 min). Good discussion about the research on the frequency of abductions.
4. John Mack. (39 min). Here's where (at 53:47) Jacobs makes his comment about Mack dropping PEER. Will Bueche is very present here.
5. David Jacobs. (54 min). Jacobs' specific hybrid-breeding & integration program "findings".
6. Evidence and methodology. (1h10).
7. Psychological perspectives. (1h22). Includes skeptical points (fantasy proneness, sleep paralysis, the question of hypnosis) and good answers to them (especially Stuart Appelle: a lot of abductions don't take place in bed, etc.).
8. Alternative reality perspectives. (1h45) Includes discussion of the imaginal realm (non-psychological, non-physical perspective). Enjoyable to watch Jacobs get challenged on his Realist stance by the interviewer.
9. An experiencer's thoughts. (2h04) The experiencer is Will Bueche.

This last part I found really interesting and surprising because Bueche recounts how through his experiences (one through meditation) it was confirmed to him by the aliens that they are involved in a reproductive, hybrid-breeding program. As I'm listening to this, I'm saying to myself, "Hey, this is what Jacobs is saying!" and I was pleased when at 2h18 the interviewer brought this to his attention. (Bueche says he "leafed through" The Threat but didn't read it.)

Also, it's interesting to hear Bueche, through his last experience with the aliens, describe it as an event where it was shown to him, purposively by the aliens so that he wouldn't doubt it, that this is a real, physical event - the beings, whatever they are, have a physical reality. He also doesn't like the word "interdimensional" and dismisses the whole "Jungian thing". So here's an important Mack follower/collaborator confirming the realist perspective, and specifically the hybrid-breeding, potential human society integration program that Jacobs is talking about.

Of course, the difference is that for Bueche the hybrid-breeding "program" is a positive event and not "an invasion". And here's one point of contention I have with Jacobs in his book because in his concluding chapters he quotes many of his abductees just stating pretty much the same facts that Bueche and other Positives are saying (they are given images of the earth in trouble, they are told some sort of transformative event will occur soon through hybridization and perhaps integration with human society). The problem is Jacobs concludes it's all deception and in the aliens' interest (not ours) when, in fact, as I'm reading closely, his abductee patients are not always painting a bleak picture (he does quote some who don't believe or trust what the aliens are telling them about their intentions). (To be fair, Jacobs isn't saying he's sure, he's saying it could be for the good of humanity - he just doesn't like how it sounds, and finds there's no evidence to believe it will be a positive thing for humans.)

Why are the aliens breeding with humans? If I'm understanding him correctly, Bueche says the way he interprets the clues he's gotten, the beings may have inadvertently destroyed their planet and want to create a generation that's more in tune with spirit, and maybe need humans and their connection to spirituality (our empathy, etc.) to achieve that goal. In The Threat, Jacobs points to some abductee accounts and the notions that the grays were themselves the result of early hybridization experiments from a higher species (possibly the insect-like aliens who are always seen by the abductees to be on board the crafts with them, and probably with humans) that were imperfect and led the grays to not be able to reproduce anymore. Because we can reproduce, the grays can reproduce through us. (p. 130)

(This post of mine should not be taken to imply that I accept this hybrid-breeding program is a reality. I am agnostic, but curious, and find no evidence to dismiss out-of-hand the realist perspective in general or the possibility of such a specific program.)
 
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#29
Dear Lizzie_S I looked into Whitley Strieber and there's a good reason why Alex hasn't sought him out for an interview.
Dear Ian, If there's an Alien breeding program the way you describe, why take so much time? Flying discs have been described throughout history. I'm familiar with the story your relating and it doesn't make sense following some basic ideas.
 
#30
Dear Lizzie_S I looked into Whitley Strieber and there's a good reason why Alex hasn't sought him out for an interview.
.
Explain please. For what reason should anyone treat your opinion of Strieber as accurate?

Dear Ian, If there's an Alien breeding program the way you describe, why take so much time? Flying discs have been described throughout history. I'm familiar with the story your relating and it doesn't make sense following some basic ideas.
The problems with that common approach are: Once again it sets up the parameter that what and how you think about something is automatically a measure of actuality. It supposes that your version of "makes sense" is relevant. Applying human values, concepts even common human perceptions to the behaviour of ET species is - at best - a flawed approach.

BTW The fact that flying discs crop up throughout known human history shows that the claim that people only see them nowadays because of sci-fi is false.
 
#31
The National Security State analysis and Guy Debord’s thesis of the Society of the Spectacle are two apparently unrelated critiques of post-War society that could help us unravel some of the weird stuff that’s been going on since World War II.
And what of the fact that people have spoken of seeing ETs way before modern societies existed?
 

Alex

Administrator
#32
What seems to be at the essence of things and therefore worthy of study is how and why the military-industrial-intelligence complex is engaging in all this.
I think that's a valid question... and might be the "essence of it", but I'm not sure we know that. The STE hypothesis would suggest that it is not the essence of it.
 

Alex

Administrator
#33
Alex, I apologize for going new age on your ass and I wouldn't presume the unfathomable but here goes. How I rationalize the NDE. It's a real phenomenon because the essence of consciousness is the underlying energy which creates the material universe (observer creates what is observed). For the individual it exists on multiple levels, and is fragmented. We are only aware and occupy ourselves with that part of consciousness which gives rise to the self and all the sensations and emotions which drive it's life. We all have a certain level of self awareness and capacity to reintegrate with the eternal energy which drives all existence and exists for us spiritual seekers as pure love. Without the physical body, the truth of our own fragmentation becomes manifested and shapes the experience. Because that consciousness energy drives and creates a kind of reality. We tend to experience that which is familiar and known to us. The Hindus call it samsara and it follows us into the afterlife because it's what we know. Total self awareness and understanding the truth of self allows the individual to reintegrate with all levels of consciousness. I imagine the NDE would then be different, but I wouldn't know. As for Eben being given access to higher levels of knowledge. Well look at how he's totally transformed his life. He was already there. He just didn't know it.
thx... I agree with most all of this... but how the heck do we fit the alien contact thing into this?
 

Alex

Administrator
#34
Many I have no doubt are genuine but I cannot believe there are 'millions' of abductees. The abductee trend or bandwagon again derails the truth! What I tend to believe more is that people latch onto the abductee experience to explain an episode of 'high weirdness' when in fact it could be anything paranormal at all. Two hundred years ago one had to watch out for fairy abductions - so we filter an 'unknown' through an urban belief where it then gets trapped and ossifies, which is not to say it doesn't have an independent reality but simply that our inherent need to stereotype or pigeonhole and clump everything together under one banner is ultimately our worst foe.
Hi Lizzie... I too find millions of abductions hard to fathom... of course, that's what some said about NDEs, but now even that figure seems low.

Moreover, the unexplainable 'high weirdness' of the best/most-reliable abduction cases should give us pause when considering the possibility of widespread misreporting of accounts.
 
#35
This discussion seems to becoming another "my pet theory" carnival. Meaning that it seems to me many people are more interested in advancing their opinions than in genuine open-minded discourse. Of course there's also what I see as a weird thing - that the people involved have no experience with what they're discussing.

The latest PT I've read is that it's the US military. Well if so . .that means for starters that the military it operates freely across and without any regard for national borders, it also has very advanced memory-alteration tech. And it employs that tech in hundreds of ops a year all while managing to keep it secret. And given that there are reports of ET sightings prior to the modern era, they also have the capability to time-travel. Possible yes but to me, it's unlikely
 

Alex

Administrator
#36
This discussion seems to becoming another "my pet theory" carnival. Meaning that it seems to me many people are more interested in advancing their opinions than in genuine open-minded discourse. Of course there's also what I see as a weird thing - that the people involved have no experience with what they're discussing.

The latest PT I've read is that it's the US military. Well if so . .that means for starters that the military it operates freely across and without any regard for national borders, it also has very advanced memory-alteration tech. And it employs that tech in hundreds of ops a year all while managing to keep it secret. And given that there are reports of ET sightings prior to the modern era, they also have the capability to time-travel. Possible yes but to me, it's unlikely
yes, but alternative explanation re military (e.g. they know very little, but are real, real interested in spreading disinformation) don't make a lot of sense either. In fact, this entire topic is impossible to fathom. I guess that why the skeptic position is popular. denial can make it easier to get a good night's rest :)
 
#37
yes, but alternative explanation re military (e.g. they know very little, but are real, real interested in spreading disinformation) don't make a lot of sense either. In fact, this entire topic is impossible to fathom. I guess that why the skeptic position is popular. denial can make it easier to get a good night's rest :)
I didn't get what you mean by alternative explanations about the military. I was stating that to me the military explanation doesn't fit the facts. As for a good night's sleep . . hot toddy?

BTW though I'm being nit-picky, remember that genuine skepticism is not denial.
 

Alex

Administrator
#38
I didn't get what you mean by alternative explanations about the military. I was stating that to me the military explanation doesn't fit the facts. As for a good night's sleep . . hot toddy?

BTW though I'm being nit-picky, remember that genuine skepticism is not denial.
pls provide a military explanation that makes sense... for example -- they know nothing more than we do.
 
#40
Getting back to the Dr. Jacobs interview, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the part where the kind Dr. Jacobs elaborated on experiencer confabulation. One of the threats to his research, asked by Alex, was his own objectivity. I think that was questioned by statements he attributed to Dr. John Mack, which has been refuted by a number of sources. I have a wonderful interview here PBS Nova did in 1996 with Dr. Mack about his alien abduction research. Here, the eminent Dr. Mack maybe gets close to revealing his own notions about the role of consciousness raising in the human species.
 
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