Mod+ 251. PATRICIA PEARSON, MAINSTREAM MEDIA JOURNALIST TACKLES SURVIVAL OF CONSCIOUSNESS

#21
People are more likely to believe in ESP if they are told that it has been disproven by scientists.

http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/05/study-suggests-more-people-willing-to.html
That's interesting. It's probably because most people have more common sense than the average scientist. You can't disprove ESP any more than you can disprove the existence of piano playing skill. All it takes is for one very skilled person to come along and disprove the claim. There you have it. Skeptic scientists have no common sense.
 
#22
Right this minute, I'm just taking a look at my local paper, and what do I see but an article on the subject of how hallucinations happen regularly in normal people (not just in schizophrenics). What does the psychiatrist interviewed include in there? "Half of widows or widowers manifest hallucinations concerning their deceased partner, especially in the 10 years following the death. Research show this is especially the case if the marriage was long..." etc. I wish I could be more optimistic.

It's gonna take a lot of Eben's and Mary Neal's. ;) Again, hopefully, I'll be proven wrong!
For some strange reason, that misguided study gave me hope by demonstrating how psychiatrists can either be idiots or they can use their position of authority to manipulate the public.
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#23
For some strange reason, that misguided study gave me hope by demonstrating how psychiatrists can either be idiots or they can use their position of authority to manipulate the public.
I'm thinking it's not always willful ignorance (the latter option in your statement), but the automatic thinking that results out of living in a civilization that profoundly thinks/has-been-taught/teaches that you are your brain and death is death. The psychiatrist's remark in the article I noticed just repeats what is commonly known in bereavement psychology (based on surveys, etc.), but of course all of the "hallucinations" reported are hallucinations because they have to be, right?

See here for example:
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/03/grief-brings-out-hallucinations-illusions/
http://www.griefhealing.com/article-halucinatory-experiences-in-grief.htm
http://science-beta.slashdot.org/st...al-hallucinations-are-a-normal-grief-reaction
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8424323
 
Last edited:
#24
I think the problem for psychiatrists is perceptual bias. That is a scientific name for the phenomenon where to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail. Because of their education, and because they work with people who have mental illnesses all day, their brain becomes hard wired to see mental disorders as the explanation for everything. It is the same reason parapsychologists who study ESP think super-psi is a good hypothesis for afterlife phenomena, and it is why neuroscientists think consciousness is produced by the brain.
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/perceptual-bias-in-parapsychology.html
 
#25
I would like to see journalists asking questions about why ridicule and persecution is such an integral part of the pseudo-skeptics' tactics. Skeptic Ray Hyman said, "As a whole, parapsychologists are nice, honest people, while the critics are cynical, nasty people." Why is that?
Sadly science does seem to resort to a lot of ridicule and name calling - maybe that has become worse in recent times. This isn't just in relation to parapsychology.

1) Scientists (including one Nobel Prize winner) who express doubt about the nature of AIDS, are called AIDS deniers (a word that is obviously designed to relate to those who deny the Jewish holocaust).

2) Scientists who express doubt about the idea that CO2 is a threat to the world, are called climate deniers.

3) Medical scientists who question the efficacy or safety of statin drugs, are accused of endangering lives!

4) A respected astronomer, Haltern Arp, was shunned and denied telescope time after he began uncovering evidence that red shifts aren't always caused by the velocity of a galaxy away from us (and therefore you could not use Hubble's law to deduce their distance). In this case, I think there is just naked fear that this discovery might ruin a lot of astronomical results.

There are actually lots of areas of science that have this disturbing quality. My feeling is that once science has decided a theory is valid - once they stop actively discussing viable alternative ideas - a rigidity often sets in. Social forces (to put it dispassionately!) prevent fresh evidence being examined properly.

I have a suspicion that this kind of behaviour is most intense in areas where there really is doubt that the mainstream don't want to acknowledge.

David
 
#26
I am beginning to agree with this point of view. For a while now I have been asking cynically what is different now that could allow for a paradigm shift that hasn't existed since the beginning of psychical research 150 years ago. But now I see what is different is that there are many independent factors all leading to the same place. There are mediums on TV. Parapsychologists studying psi. Near-death experience research in hospitals, and because of improved medical technology, more people are surviving near-death experiences. And experiencers of all types are reporting their experiences. There is research into intelligent design in cosmology and biology, and mainstream materialist scientists are also running into the limits of materialism in cosmology and biology and are willing to say the old theories are not good enough and I think that is an important sign. There is also quantum mechanics, philosophers studying consciousness, and ufology, plus the internet to facilitate communication. There was a time when you had to listen to late night radio to learn about these subjects. Now you can watch PhD scientists talking about their original research on youtube and click on a link to read their peer-reviewed papers. It is beginning to look like the tipping point to me.
I agree with all of that and I think that the on going Aware study will finally force the change when they get enough cases of veridical OBE's during cardiac arrest. When I say change, I don't think there will have to be massive alterations in how science goes about it's business, neurologists will still have to poke about in the brain and psychiatrists will still recommend drugs for certain conditions (maybe to a much lesser extent of course) but once we officially "get our souls back" , the way we look at life and our place in the world has to change. It's going to give us optimism and a greater contentment and a relaxing or maybe an abandonment of the abhorrent rat race and hopefully we might just be able to stop killing each other.

I'm going a bit too fast though, we need to wait and see of course.
 
#27
I totally agree!

There are so many people who have had these experiences, and they are tired of being bullied by the "science club", which isn't really about science at all.
Thanks, K9. We are entering exciting times. I thought Lance Becker's comments "We have data coming to us that I just don't have a good explanation for " and when asked if he thought consciousness could exist after clinical death he said ... " I think it may do for a period of time...." were extraordinary really from someone of his background and credentials. I've said this before so I'm repeating myself (not good) but that for me was an eye opener I mean that is heresy, isn't it. Just remember how pioneers like Van Lommel were treated when they said similar things......outrage from the holy guardians of science and reason ...."What the hell, you can't say that" :)

47.2
 
#28
Really good interview. Interesting to listen to how much her experiences with the materialist community paralleled yours here over the years. The stats you guys discussed really are jaw dropping. But as you point out the fact that they are essentially ignored is a deep insight into the limits of rationality in human society and the extent to which we lie to ourselves about our selves or at least live in a kind of mass delusion. And no I don't think I'm exaggerating the importance of this. If that many people can be experiencing something on an ongoing basis and yet the entirety of Western public culture can just suppress it by a kind of communal consent. For hundreds of years! Wow that is truly Fd up! Anything is possible.

The other topic briefly touched on at the end, that always surprises me that more people don't talk about, is the obvious potential of NDEs to form the basis of a new religion. Famous NDErs, like Eben Alexander really are cast in the role of prophets by an disconcerting number of people. Whereas I and I think many people here, see NDEs as much more subtle, practically anti-religious in a traditional sense experiences, it isn't that hard to imagine that subtlety getting re-cast into a very traditional, simple answers for people who need that, full blown religion. If history is any indication It just takes the right charismatic con-man that believes his own BS, at the right time and place. And if this time and place isn't primed for a new religion, I don't know when would be.

Bob
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#29
Thanks, K9. We are entering exciting times. I thought Lance Becker's comments "We have data coming to us that I just don't have a good explanation for " and when asked if he thought consciousness could exist after clinical death he said ... " I think it may do for a period of time...." were extraordinary really from someone of his background and credentials. I've said this before so I'm repeating myself (not good) but that for me was an eye opener I mean that is heresy, isn't it. Just remember how pioneers like Van Lommel were treated when they said similar things......outrage from the holy guardians of science and reason ...."What the hell, you can't say that" :)

47.2
Hi Tim. I just watched the second video. I'm not sure what point you're making with that one. All I hear is a doctor talking about the "miracle" of keeping the biological robot alive a little longer. (?) More short-sighted materialist BS, imo. "Must keep robot alive!"
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#30
Whereas I and I think many people here, see NDEs as much more subtle, practically anti-religious in a traditional sense experiences, it isn't that hard to imagine that subtlety getting re-cast into a very traditional, simple answers for people who need that, full blown religion. If history is any indication It just takes the right charismatic con-man that believes his own BS, at the right time and place. And if this time and place isn't primed for a new religion, I don't know when would be.
Good point.

Maybe this is related to what you're saying: I started recoiling a little bit in the part of the interview where it seemed Patricia seemed to be softening up to the "wisdom traditions" ("maybe they were right along" kind of thing - yeesh...), and I'm also getting a little tired of books with the word "heaven" in them. Sorry to be a bit of a sourpuss here.
 
#31
251. PATRICIA PEARSON, MAINSTREAM MEDIA JOURNALIST TACKLES SURVIVAL OF CONSCIOUSNESS

Interview with journalist and author examines resistance to evidence suggesting consciousness survives death.
Great interview Alex. This one was different than your typical talks. The tragedy and deep personal experience Patricia Pearson has endured in order to take the journey she did to write her book was heart breaking.

But, as far as main stream science willful-ignorance of all the subjects discussed in your interviews, I don't know if I can accept they are actually willfully-ignorant, at least not all of them. Maybe the initiates in the club, but what I'm getting at is the realization I have been coming continually across the board from a variety of researchers that over the years have revealed the existence of secret societies and groups that apparently delve into exotic esoterica and the bizarre occulted practices. It might be easy to dismiss if it were just one or two fringe researchers, but it's many from around the world and reaching far back into history. I'm talking Sumerian and Babylonian periods. And from all I've read, the subjects of the mind, psi, and what is labeled the paranormal has always been of utmost importance to them till this day. I've also read that such things as MKUltra relates directly back to these groups and is all taken quite seriously at the highest levels.

I can't imagine you have not at least come across a few references. It's very difficult to miss, since there are so many cross referencing connections. But, immediately the question is how real or how serious can this all be taken. From my perspective it's very real and very serious. I've run across this so many different ways from so many different angles, that it would be hard to rationalize just how the subject would have been injected into the discussion in the first place just as a hoax. So, taking it as real, then what can only be deduced is that the study of the mind, psi, and paranormal has been intently and oppressively marginalized, ridiculed, and excised from general knowledge on purpose. True power and control really doesn't come from who has the most wealth or most lethal weapons, true power and control comes from the mind. The kind of power and control humanity has barely any knowledge of. At least humanity like me, but there are those that probably do have an idea.

As nutty as that all may come across, it begins to make a lot of sense, at least to me, when some of the more bizarre things happening in the world, past and present, are examined through an esoteric and occulted lens.
 
Last edited:

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#32
#33
Really good interview. Interesting to listen to how much her experiences with the materialist community paralleled yours here over the years. The stats you guys discussed really are jaw dropping. But as you point out the fact that they are essentially ignored is a deep insight into the limits of rationality in human society and the extent to which we lie to ourselves about our selves or at least live in a kind of mass delusion.
I agree. It's not much about the limits of rationality, rationality could work much better than this if it wasn't overshadowed by prejudice, manipulation etc...
Some of those who masks themselves behind slogans about "rationality" and "critical thinking" are the quintessential examples of fallacious reasoning and bigotry.

cheers
 
#34
#35
I am sympathetic to Matt's suggestion that those who know of psi and use it to maintain power might try to suppress knowledge outside their own group.

There is good evidence that governments are involved in disinformation about psi to prevent geopolitical competitors from developing psi for espionage and sabotage.

https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/suppressed_parapsychology
In late 1972, after DARPA computers seemed to have been affected by Uri Geller's psychic powers, DARPA sent the prominent skeptic Ray Hyman to debunk Geller.

Hyman reported that Geller was doing what magicians could do. However, Hyman did not test Geller under controlled conditions that would enable him to distinguish between stage magic and paranormal abilities. In his book "Uri", Andrija Puharich, a scientist who validated Uri Geller's psychic abilities, names two individuals from DARPA who started rumors that Geller's abilities were not genuine. This was exposed as a disinformation campaign when Targ and Puthoff at SRI obtained positive results with Geller under tightly controlled conditions and their research was published in the Nature article: "Information Transmission Under Conditions Of Sensory Shielding" by Harold E. Puthoff, Ph.D., and Russell Targ, Nature, VOL 252, No. 5476, Oct. 18, 1974, pp. 602-607.
...
In 1987, the National Research Council (NRC) issued a report that was the result of a request by the US Army for an evaluation of several subjects, one of which was parapsychology. The report incorrectly stated that there was no justification for parapsychological research. During an interview on Skeptiko Podcast, Chris Carter, author of "Parapsychology and the Skeptics", described this report:

There was even a National Research Council (NRC) report in 1987 which announced to the press: "The Committee finds no scientific justification for research conducted over a period of 130 years for the existence of parapsychological phenomena." It was a total hatchet job.
http://www.skeptiko.com/blog/?p=38
According to the Wikipedia article on the NRC, the NRC is the working arm of the National Academy of Sciences and was founded to help develop military technology during World War I.
...
The CIA, at the direction of Congress, requested the American Institutes for Research to prepare a report on remote viewing. The report was released in 1995. The report incorrectly concluded that remote viewing was not useful for intelligence purposes.

Edwin C. May, who had participated in intelligence programs using remote viewing, wrote in "The American Institutes for Research Review of the Department of Defense's STAR GATE Program: A Commentary" ( http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/media/air_mayresponse.html ) that the CIA had deliberately limited the scope of the report to ensure that the report would not find any cases where remote viewing had been useful for intelligence purposes.
...
Some of the incredulity about psychic phenomena spread by the mass media is due to collaboration with government agencies. In his book "Uri", Andrija Puharich, wrote that individuals working for DARPA directly influenced Time magazine to publish an article that denied Geller's psychic abilities were genuine and tried to discredit the scientists who studied Geller at SRI. More details can be found in Puharich's book:
...
According to the Wikipedia article on Ray Hyman, Hyman was a founding member of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), a skeptical organization, and he also consulted for the Defense Department. This is fairly straight forward evidence suggesting that the Defense Department has infiltrated skeptical organizations. If one prominent member of a skeptical organization was working openly for the Defense Department, it seems possible, in light of the above examples of government misrepresentation of parapsychological research, that other prominent skeptics, also members of skeptical organizations, could be working secretly for government agencies.
...
Another case of government suppression of a psychic occurred in England during World War II. The British Admiralty was afraid the medium Helen Duncan would provide a channel for spirits to reveal secret plans for the D. Day invasion of Europe. To protect this military secret, Helen Duncan was wrongly convicted of fraud. This case is discussed in greater detail in the chapter on Skeptical Misdirection in the section Helen Duncan, framed by the British government.
This is evidence that the government suppresses information about psi, but to get back to Matt's point, governments and their agencies are run by powerful people from behind the scenes...
 
Last edited:
#36
Great interview Alex. This one was different than your typical talks. The tragedy and deep personal experience Patricia Pearson has endured in order to take the journey she did to write her book.

But, as far as main stream science willful-ignorance of all the subjects discussed in your interviews, I don't know if I can accept they are actually willfully-ignorant, at least not all of them. Maybe the initiates in the club, but what I'm getting at is the realization I have been coming continually across the board from a variety of researchers that over the years have revealed the existence of secret societies and groups that apparently delve into exotic esoterica and the bizarre occulted practices. It might be easy to dismiss if it were just one or two fringe researchers, but it's many from around the world and reaching far back into history. I'm talking Sumerian and Babylonian periods. And from all I've read, the subjects of the mind, psi, and what is labeled the paranormal has always been of utmost importance to them till this day. I've also read that such things as MKUltra relates directly back to these groups and is all taken quite seriously at the highest levels.

I can't imagine you have not at least come across a few references. It's very difficult to miss, since there are so many cross referencing connections. But, immediately the question is how real or how serious can this all be taken. From my perspective it's very real and very serious. I've run across this so many different ways from so many different angles, that it would be hard to rationalize just how the subject would have been injected into the discussion in the first place just as a hoax. So, taking it as real, then what can only be deduced is that the study of the mind, psi, and paranormal has been intently and oppressively marginalized, ridiculed, and excised from general knowledge on purpose. True power and control really doesn't come from who has the most wealth or most lethal weapons, true power and control comes from the mind. The kind of power and control humanity has barely any knowledge of. At least humanity like me, but there are those that probably do have an idea.

As nutty as that all may come across, it begins to make a lot of sense, at least to me, when some of the more bizarre things happening in the world, past and present, are examined through an esoteric and occulted lens.
I agree, it does make sense.
As mentioned in my previous post people like Jim Marrs provide tons of pretty solid and mostly uncontroversial evidence. You don't even necessarily need the esoteric lens, you can read the material by John Perkins or even more mainstream folks such as Naomi Klein. In general any good investigative journalism work will point to this ever recurring image of a pyramidal structure of power, whether it's about economics, history, geopolitics, etc...

The only thing I don't entirely concur with is that many journalists or researchers depict this top of the pyramid as a cohesive, all powerful gang of puppeteers all working in unison. I don't really think it works like that otherwise their agenda would have been fulfilled by now. They are people, with all their ups and downs as any other human being. True, they are probably a well selected bunch of psychopaths, but they argue and fight and compete with each other as anyone else, especially in those ultra high levels of power. And to me that's why often times predictions made by so called "Illuminati observers" or pundits don't come to pass.

They may not have a mortgage to pay or a too tiny apartment to live in, but they are subject to poor judgement, bad luck and conflicts as anybody else. Sure, when they move a finger they can cause tsunamis, and that's disturbing. :(

Plus... as you said, by controlling most of the media you control most of the minds.
 
#37
Hi Tim. I just watched the second video. I'm not sure what point you're making with that one. All I hear is a doctor talking about the "miracle" of keeping the biological robot alive a little longer. (?) More short-sighted materialist BS, imo. "Must keep robot alive!"
Yes, that's right but that video was just an example of the calibre and practicality of Dr Becker. His comments about consciousness are of course in the first video, my point being that to hear a clinician state that he thinks consciousness may persist for a period of time after death is something.
 
Last edited:
#38
There you have it. Skeptic scientists have no common sense.
Not sure if you're saying this tongue-in-cheek but although I agree that the scientist "type" may exhibit less common sense, what I think is actually going on is that these people, by their very nature AND through their advanced training, have been taught NOT to rely on common sense, as it can be very misleading (after-all- it is "obvious" that the sun revolves around the Earth to the casual observer isn't it?).

These folks are encouraged to "follow the data",,, which often leads away from what common sense suggests.

But the dichotomy is- these same "data driven" people ignore or remain unaware of much of the data that is available.

I think the root cause here is the fact that science (actually every endeavour) has become so darn specialized that to make any contribution to the leading edge of your field of study requires a high level of focus. Thus:
A- accepting much of the previous work as "proven", and
B- limiting one's field of view to a narrow band of specifically relevant information. This filtering is required because in today's www world there is so much information available, meaningful work would be impossible without being selective about where one's spends one's time and attention.

So although these folks are trained to "follow the data", they are very selective about the data they take time to expose themselves to.

Then of course you have the additional forces of: protecting of one's reputation and acquiring prestige, and of where there is grant money to be spent.

And finally, the cherry on the top of the dessert, is the fact that the very nature of these phenomenon is that they are observer and participant dependant and are very hard to replicate consistently. And experimental repeatability, being at the heart of the scientific method makes the territory fraught with challenges.

Look at Richard Feynman: he was both incredibly gifted technically while also very common sense oriented. And he was utterly unaware -as far as I can tell- (or simply uninterested) of the amazing data that suggested the strange behaviour that we discuss every day.

Given all of this, you have the broken system we all see. And I see it staying that way for a very long time.
 
Last edited:
#39
Interesting, Matt. Can you give a few references? Do you mean stuff like The Nine, for example?

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/council_of_nine_fortean.htm
There's so much Ian, it's difficult to just provide a few references that would cover the subject cogently. I've run across mentions from reading on psi, mind control, blood lines, remote viewing, NDEs, OBEs, paper clip, and many others. The connections just seem to overlap and sometimes it wasn't something I was even looking for, yet it seems to work in.

I would suggest just looking around. I'm the type where I may be looking into one subject, but by the time I'm into it a few hrs later, I've covered 10 other related topics that seem interesting.

I'll see what I can come up with. It's such a derisive and ridicule attracting subject that I've never really discussed the matter with anyone. But, the relationship with working with the mind and the soul, spirit, or wherever you want to call it, overlaps the topics on Skeptiko in many ways. So, I felt almost compelled to comment something, even though I realize it would likely not be received seriously or well at all.
 
#40
Well done, Alex, really nice interview. Things are changing, I've waited nearly forty years but I really do think the end of critical rationalism/materialism is in sight if a journalist of Patricia's standing can put out a book like this.

I wonder. Towards the end of the interview Patricia mentions that she spoke with a woman who had an NDE believes we reincarnate on different worlds throughout time. Most definitely a possibility. Sometimes I wonder if we are over complicating it though...something to think about.
 
Top